Belichick's record without Brady since the Brady era began

[Pats1971]

Psst! Belichick cut Cam outright before the start of the season. He didn't want to start the season with Cam and ease Jones into it. He didn't give Cam the option to be a back up. He signed Cam as a place holder. He was either going to draft Jones or someone else or trade for Garoppolo. That was always the plan.

And I am not comparing Belichick to Brady. I am looking at Belichick on his own without Brady. You are comparing Belichick to Brady. I think Belichick and Brady worked hand in hand. Most dynasties in the NFL had a HOF coach AND a HOF QB (or two with San Fran).

ok? Cam had more job security last year than anyone in the league. I would not want Jones to watch Cam either. Bill had no idea he was going to draft Jones. He probably had Jones and a few other QB's up on his board. Jones is the one that came out of it, lucky for us he was the best fit, but Bill didnt know he was going to drop, if he idd he has mic's in teams war rooms. I have not once compared brady to a coach, not once. Its fine to do look at what Bill did without Brady, but not sure why, and if you are going to do that, then you have to count all of what he did without Brady. I mean it, its really not a slam to say a coach would win more with a hall of fame QB. He would tell you the same like all coaches. Coaches do not get to play, they have to do things and then hope the players can pull it off. Bill could come up with the greatest scheme ever if players jack it up, whos fault is it? Bill's? So yeah a coach will tell you that a player that can pull off thier stuff to success, they like that.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Why does everyone seem so pre-occupied with choosing Bill vs Tom? The radio talking heads go to the point of insanity with their declarations that you must choose one or the other. They are both GOAT's who mutually benefited from their relationship. Bill was a good coach who turned around Clev before the owner pulled the rug out from under the team during his last year. He is now close to the all time number of wins in NFL history in the salary cap era. No one doubts Shula because he had Griese and Marino as QB's with some number of losing seasons on his resume. Brady was a confident and capable QB who overcame all obstacles in his way to become the best of all time. He holds 1,000,000 records and has been successful in Tampa Bay. No one claims that Montana was not an all time great because he benefitted from Walsh being his coach.

Neither would have been as successful without the other. Both would have had success on their own. The fact that Brady won in Tampa and the Patriots look to be getting back to normal should be proof that they are both GOATs. As fans we were extremely lucky to enjoy both for an amazing run. Leave the debate to the radio idiots and internet trolls. Go Pats!

 

[Pats1971]

Counting a first year coaches record when he takes over a rebuild as some sort of knock on their ability is illogical. It is part of their history but says nothing about their coaching ability when their goal is building long term success. Was Parcells horrible in 1993 when the team started 1-11? Of course not, just stating a W-L record w/o the proper context is just a hot take.

What about first year QB's do we throw those out too? I count everything. Its not unheard of for a coach to go to a team and have success in their first year.

 

[Pats1971]

Why does everyone seem so pre-occupied with choosing Bill vs Tom? The radio talking heads go to the point of insanity with their declarations that you must choose one or the other. They are both GOAT's who mutually benefited from their relationship. Bill was a good coach who turned around Clev before the owner pulled the rug out from under the team during his last year. He is now close to the all time number of wins in NFL history in the salary cap era. No one doubts Shula because he had Griese and Marino as QB's with some number of losing seasons on his resume. Brady was a confident and capable QB who overcame all obstacles in his way to become the best of all time. He holds 1,000,000 records and has been successful in Tampa Bay. No one claims that Montana was not an all time great because he benefitted from Walsh being his coach.

Neither would have been as successful without the other. Both would have had success on their own. The fact that Brady won in Tampa and the Patriots look to be getting back to normal should be proof that they are both GOATs. As fans we were extremely lucky to enjoy both for an amazing run. Leave the debate to the radio idiots and internet trolls. Go Pats!

OMG this....ok end the thread.

 

[Rob0729]

Not exactly, because you are specifically using Brady becoming a starter as a benchmark for your comparison and using it to combat people who aren’t limiting themselves to that. Can’t you just be happy the team is doing well instead of getting dragged into a fruitless QB vs HC discussion because you made the mistake of caring about what is said on Felger and Meatball?

I was just pointing out what I thought was an interesting stat. I forgot that would bring out the anti-Belichick crowd. I never said it was the only to look at how good Belichick is without Brady or even the best way. Of course I am a natural fighter, so I will defend this facts.

I think Belichick is either the best or one of the best head coach of all times by watching his genius on the field. Not his record without Brady.

 

[Pats1971]

Not exactly, because you are specifically using Brady becoming a starter as a benchmark for your comparison and using it to combat people who aren’t limiting themselves to that. Can’t you just be happy the team is doing well instead of getting dragged into a fruitless QB vs HC discussion because you made the mistake of caring about what is said on Felger and Meatball?

Yeah, trust me, I get pissed all the time at some idiot saying something in the media. Example. KC sucks for most of the year, they have a good game last week and all of the sudden Mahomes is back and they are a superbowl contender after one game. lol. Anway, yeah who cares what media idiots say. I told people, when brady left the media already had the story written of who was going to get slammed for not having success without the other. It didnt matter to them who it was.

 

[gobesmug]

And he won the Super Bowl in 2001 and Brady was a game manager then and clearly not remotely close to the elite QB he is.

And Jones has the skill set that fits the Patriots system. Although Belichick would love Jones to be a Brady clone and be just as good, he didn't draft him because he thinks he cannot win without a HOF/ Top QB of all time. Any GM with brain knows you draft players who fit your system unless you want to revamp your entire system to fit that player. Belichick was never going to revamp his offense around his QB like Fields unless he was sure that he was going to be a HOF QB.

Dude just stop

Great coaches don't try and fit players into a "system". They build a system around the players they have

That's why Bill is great. He has changed the def and off around through out the years to match his players.

The clock killing Corey Dillon offense only existed when Corey Dillon was playing here in his prime.

The spread vertical offense only existed because we had Randy Moss playing the deep threat.

Bill had some great players in 2000 including a near HOF QB in Drew Bledsoe, injuries and past his prime, but had a losing season. You can't exclude that from Bill's record as a HC in NE.

Bill isn't magic. He needs a QB to win just like any other coach does.

Cassell was a playoff QB with Todd Hailey as his HC and Jimmy G made it to the Superbowl.

Bill is a GOAT but needs a QB just like any other HC ever

 

[Pats1971]

I was just pointing out what I thought was an interesting stat. I forgot that would bring out the anti-Belichick crowd. I never said it was the only to look at how good Belichick is without Brady or even the best way. Of course I am a natural fighter, so I will defend this facts.

I think Belichick is either the best or one of the best head coach of all times by watching his genius on the field. Not his record without Brady.

Its not anti belichick to say what his actual record is, that is what happened, its not made up. I along with Bill agree that having Brady helped with the success the team had. its ok to say that, really.

 

[Doctor DDS]

What about first year QB's do we throw those out too? I count everything. Its not unheard of for a coach to go to a team and have success in their first year.

Never said to throw it out but to just state the record as some sort of comment on the job they did is beyond stupid. Parcells did a terrific job with the 1993 Pats and it set the foundation for future success but if you just focus on 5-11 then he obviously sucked. Its just a dumb take.

 

[Pats1971]

Dude just stop

Great coaches don't try and fit players into a "system". They build a system around the players they have

That's why Bill is great. He has changed the def and off around through out the years to match his players.

The clock killing Corey Dillon offense only existed when Corey Dillon was playing here in his prime.

The spread vertical offense only existed because we had Randy Moss playing the deep threat.

Bill had some great players in 2000 including a near HOF QB in Drew Bledsoe, injuries and past his prime, but had a losing season. You can't exclude that from Bill's record as a HC in NE.

Bill isn't magic. He needs a QB to win just like any other coach does.

Cassell was a playoff QB with Todd Hailey as his HC and Jimmy G made it to the Superbowl.

Bill is a GOAT but needs a QB just like any other HC ever

OMG this again....yes despite popular belief coaches do not have these created systems and add player and all is well. You fit your offense around the QB and the players. If you are a coach that throws deep, you are not going to try and force 4.7 receivers to run streaks all day. If you have a QB that is slow, you are not going to run a pistol option. lol. Systems are built around what the players do best.

 

[TheRainMaker]

This thread is blowing up quick. LOL.

His record without Brady starting should start the moment he took over in 2000. Not after which it's convenient for some posters to skew the numbers.

With that being said, the longevity or success of a Coach depends on the level of play of their QB.

2000 Bledsoe wasn't a fit and played poorly - losing record
2001-2007 competent to eventual elite play - winning record
2008 Cassell was competent - winning record
2009 - 2019 elite QB play - winning record
2020 - one of the worst QB play I've seen - losing record

It's not rocket science fellas.

 

[Pats1971]

Never said to throw it out but to just state the record as some sort of comment on the job they did is beyond stupid. Parcells did a terrific job with the 1993 Pats and it set the foundation for future success but if you just focus on 5-11 then he obviously sucked. Its just a dumb take.

Again...I can move numbers around and make them say anything I want them to say or I can use what actually happened in real life. I choose the real life thing, and then people can argue about the why's somewhere else.

 

[Rob0729]

ok? Cam had more job security last year than anyone in the league. I would not want Jones to watch Cam either. Bill had no idea he was going to draft Jones. He probably had Jones and a few other QB's up on his board. Jones is the one that came out of it, lucky for us he was the best fit, but Bill didnt know he was going to drop, if he idd he has mic's in teams war rooms. I have not once compared brady to a coach, not once. Its fine to do look at what Bill did without Brady, but not sure why, and if you are going to do that, then you have to count all of what he did without Brady. I mean it, its really not a slam to say a coach would win more with a hall of fame QB. He would tell you the same like all coaches. Coaches do not get to play, they have to do things and then hope the players can pull it off. Bill could come up with the greatest scheme ever if players jack it up, whos fault is it? Bill's? So yeah a coach will tell you that a player that can pull off thier stuff to success, they like that.

Belichick always knew Cam was a place holder. He always intended to upgrade the position whether it was in draft or trade. Sure he probably wasn't sure it would be Jones, but most likely would have drafted a QB in the first round or two even if it wasn't Jones.

And Cam didn't have more job security than anyone in the league. That is stupid. You think if Watson demanded his trade in 2000 rather than 2001 and he didn't have the sexual assault allegations against him, Belichick would have not considered trading for him because Cam was his guy or if the 49ers offered Garoppolo for a second or third rounder before the trade deadline (if he was healthy) that Belichick wouldn't have considered the trade? Cam's only job security last year was the Pats had no better option.

And all I did was hear a stat on the radio and thought it was interesting and posted it. You are the one who seems offended by it.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Brady has not won a superbowl without Bill or a team that didnt win a playoff game for 18 years before he got there.

Brady would never have won last year if he had Deion Branch, Givens, or Troy Brown to throw to. He needed a bunch of all-stars at nearly every position. He was able to win in the past with those guys because he had Belichick.

 

[Pats1971]

This thread is blowing up quick. LOL.

Gobs and Stu came in with gold. Should have ended the thread.

 

[RobertWeathers]

So much of the discussion during the offseason and early this season was that Belichick has a losing record without Brady. But I just heard on Felger and Mazz (yeah, I know. I know. Why am I listening to them?), a emailer pointed out that Belichick has a winning record in games without Brady since Mo Lewis took out Bledsoe. I think that is a fair way of judging Belichick as a stand alone coach without Brady and not what he did 25 years ago.

So here we go:

2008 - 11-5 (I am counting the game Brady went down since he only played a series)
2018 - 3-1 (two games starting their third string QB)
2020 - 7-9
2021 - 7-4

Total: 28-19 or 59.6% winning percentage.

It isn't as good with Brady obviously, but it isn't all that bad. Odds are decent that that winning percentage will go up by the end of this year the way they are playing. And the only time he didn't win more games than he lost was last year with a mediocre QB and them rebuilding after the Brady era. And even then, they were only one game away from going .500.

Also, note all the seasons he played QBs he drafted, he has winning records.

The real question people want the answer to is....when you immediately extract Tom from the team, how good is BB?

Bill has said every decision they have made has been around Tom. Game plans, cap, play calls, personnel, etc.

OK let's use his words for/against him.

The only teams Bill built around Tom which Tom did not play were 2008 and 2016. You could also argue the AFCCG vs Pitt in 2001 when Drew came in.

That would make Bill 15-6.

You can't count anything in CLE, 2000, 2001,2020, 2021 as those teams were not built considering Tom. They stand on their own and so does BB.

If you want to say BB is an average coach w/o Tom, the numbers kinda show that but context needs to be added. CLE and NE were rebuilds. He inherited a 3-13 team in CLE, didn't have FA to accelerate it and a cheap, crappy owner. 2000 NEP was Bobby Grier's money pit and he needed to tear it down to the studs.

2020 was a re-set, Cam Newton-led, COVID opt-out train wreck.

We see what is happing in 2021. The story has yet to be finished but it's looking....

 

[Pats1971]

Belichick always knew Cam was a place holder. He always intended to upgrade the position whether it was in draft or trade. Sure he probably wasn't sure it would be Jones, but most likely would have drafted a QB in the first round or two even if it wasn't Jones.

And Cam didn't have more job security than anyone in the league. That is stupid. You think if Watson demanded his trade in 2000 rather than 2001 and he didn't have the sexual assault allegations against him, Belichick would have not considered trading for him because Cam was his guy or if the 49ers offered Garoppolo for a second or third rounder before the trade deadline (if he was healthy) that Belichick wouldn't have considered the trade? Cam's only job security last year was the Pats had no better option.

And all I did was hear a stat on the radio and thought it was interesting and posted it. You are the one who seems offended by it.

Well...yeah, but I would have rather played stidam to see what they had. What the hell good does it do to play Cam? never got that. If you are going to have a throw away season then start the young guy and see what you have.

 

[amfootball]

Bill needs really good Qbing just like every other HC. I am really happy he drafted Mac who is pretty much a clone of a young Brady.

 

[Pats1971]

The real question people want the answer to is....when you immediately extract Tom from the team, how good is BB?

Bill has said every decision they have made has been around Tom. Game plans, cap, play calls, personnel, etc.

OK let's use his words for/against him.

The only teams Bill built around Tom which Tom did not play were 2008 and 2016. You could also argue the AFCCG vs Pitt in 2001 when Drew came in.

That would make Bill 15-5.

You can't count anything in CLE, 2000, 2001,2020, 2021 as those teams were not built considering Tom. They stand on their own and so does BB.

If you want to say BB is an average coach w/o Tom, the numbers kinda show that but context needs to be added. CLE and NE were rebuilds. He inherited a 3-13 team, didn't have FA to accelerate and a cheap, crappy owner. 2000 NEP was Bobby Grier's money pit and he needed to tear it down to the studs.

2020 was a re-set, Cam Newton-led, COVID opt-out train wreck.

We see what is happing in 2021. The story has yet to be finished but it's looking....

View attachment 37833

So....you are saying that the teams built around Tom had way more success? Also, where are you getting 15-5? If we do your thing of throwing out all things that go against Bill they were 15-6 in 2008 and 2016. Actuall Bill did not inherite a 3-13 teams, the Browns 4 years prior to when Bill got there was a better record than it was under Bill with Cle. The pats were 7-9 the year before Bill took over the pats. so when was the 3-13?

 

[Rob0729]

Dude just stop

Great coaches don't try and fit players into a "system". They build a system around the players they have

That's why Bill is great. He has changed the def and off around through out the years to match his players.

The clock killing Corey Dillon offense only existed when Corey Dillon was playing here in his prime.

The spread vertical offense only existed because we had Randy Moss playing the deep threat.

Bill had some great players in 2000 including a near HOF QB in Drew Bledsoe, injuries and past his prime, but had a losing season. You can't exclude that from Bill's record as a HC in NE.

Bill isn't magic. He needs a QB to win just like any other coach does.

Cassell was a playoff QB with Todd Hailey as his HC and Jimmy G made it to the Superbowl.

Bill is a GOAT but needs a QB just like any other HC ever

That's BS. You Bill Walsh would have gotten a QB who couldn't run the West Coast Offense and revamp his entire offense around him? No! Just like Belichick, he wouldn't draft or trade for or sign a QB who didn't fit his system. His system. The system is in place. Belichick was looking QB that fit his system, not get a QB and revamp his system around him.

And the reason why Belichick was so quick to move on from Bledsoe was that never fit his system. He never loved Bledsoe. Bledsoe was obviously forced on him. Bledsoe was not passed his prime. He actually had a pretty good season in 2002. His team sucked, but he didn't. He just never fit on Belichick's system.

And yes, this is a QB driven league. Of course you need a QB. I never said otherwise.