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Are you anti-Roger Goodell?

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Anti-Goodell?

  • Yes. Trying too hard to be a stern disciplinarian. / Un-Just

    Votes: 87 68.0%
  • No. I think he’s cleaning up the NFL just fine.

    Votes: 16 12.5%
  • Neither. I feel he's just doing his job normally.

    Votes: 25 19.5%

  • Total voters
    128
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VA,
I think by the report that Kraft is firmly in the opt out camp, the days of him doing what's best for the league at the expense of his team is over. IMO, they way Goodell has bungled the handling of the taping has literally cost Krafts tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars and he will be trying to get it back. If some of the small market teams are hurt in the process too bad.
I would like to address a point you made about how investigations and punishments come about. You said that reason the Pats were investigated and punished was that the Jets filed a complaint and that when the Jets taped the Pats the previous year, the Pats didn't file a complaint.
Does this mean that the Bear filed a complaint against the 49ers?
 
I apologize in a fashion, VA....I'm guilty of what psychologists term "transference". I've been around the block more than a few times and while I don't personally know the man, I would LOVE to get in Goodell's face for five minutes.

So, you never confirmed or denied that you ARE in a bunker somewhere beneath Langley...can I infer that you are connected with the CIA/NSA halo? If so, perhaps black ops could take a look at Arlen Spector and Greg "Nutbunny" Easterbrook.
 
xxxxxdjdikskskslss
 
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VA,
I think by the report that Kraft is firmly in the opt out camp, the days of him doing what's best for the league at the expense of his team is over. IMO, they way Goodell has bungled the handling of the taping has literally cost Krafts tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars and he will be trying to get it back. If some of the small market teams are hurt in the process too bad.
I would like to address a point you made about how investigations and punishments come about. You said that reason the Pats were investigated and punished was that the Jets filed a complaint and that when the Jets taped the Pats the previous year, the Pats didn't file a complaint.
Does this mean that the Bear filed a complaint against the 49ers?

I'm still here waiting for the link showing me what Bob Kraft has done for the small market teams. As best I can tell, it's a big 0, zip, zilch, nada. Are you referring to that joke of a revenue sharing plan that would have given a few teams a few million dollars a year each (I think the total was something like $150 million over 6 years to go to something like the bottom 10 teams)--the one that took them at least a couple of years to even start to discuss how that was going to be whacked up/distributed? In fact, I'm not sure that that was ever even figured out. For all I know, that money still hasn't been distributed.

As noted above, for a while now I've personally suspected Kraft and his big market cohorts really want to do away with the cap, either altogether after 2010 (which the latest rumblings are suggesting--either that or these guys (most of the big market folks were heavily involved in the CBA discussions and forced it down their brethren's throats as you may recall) really are just idiots for not realizing in 2006 that the CBA was a bad deal), or in a de facto sense by raising the cap so high that small market teams can't afford to spend up to the cap (for ex., Buffalo and some others have already said that they can't spend up to the cap).

Seems to me like the NFL is moving on a daily basis closer and closer to MLB's business model, and we all know how well that turned out for that sport (although, again, you folks in Beantown may not see that, but the other 75% of baseball outside large markets certainly does--ask a Pirates or Royals fan sometime how much chance their team has to win a WS in the next decade.) If you want to create a League where half the League is just effectively a minor league team for the top 5-6 teams who have birthrights to the playoffs every year, go ahead, but I won't be watching nor, I suspect, will large numbers of other current fans. Kraft and Co. are playing with fire and risk destroying both the League's competitiveness and their own economic well-being (the NFL's largest asset is still by far its network TV contracts) in the long-run. I hope they have the sense enough to see that, but I suspect that personal greed and a desire to secure (some would say an unfair) competitive advantage will win out here.
 
I'm still here waiting for the link showing me what Bob Kraft has done for the small market teams. As best I can tell, it's a big 0, zip, zilch, nada. Are you referring to that joke of a revenue sharing plan that would have given a few teams a few million dollars a year each (I think the total was something like $150 million over 6 years to go to something like the bottom 10 teams)--the one that took them at least a couple of years to even start to discuss how that was going to be whacked up/distributed? In fact, I'm not sure that that was ever even figured out. For all I know, that money still hasn't been distributed.

As noted above, for a while now I've personally suspected Kraft and his big market cohorts really want to do away with the cap, either altogether after 2010 (which the latest rumblings are suggesting--either that or these guys (most of the big market folks were heavily involved in the CBA discussions and forced it down their brethren's throats as you may recall) really are just idiots for not realizing in 2006 that the CBA was a bad deal), or in a de facto sense by raising the cap so high that small market teams can't afford to spend up to the cap (for ex., Buffalo and some others have already said that they can't spend up to the cap).

Seems to me like the NFL is moving on a daily basis closer and closer to MLB's business model, and we all know how well that turned out for that sport (although, again, you folks in Beantown may not see that, but the other 75% of baseball outside large markets certainly does--ask a Pirates or Royals fan sometime how much chance their team has to win a WS in the next decade.) If you want to create a League where half the League is just effectively a minor league team for the top 5-6 teams who have birthrights to the playoffs every year, go ahead, but I won't be watching nor, I suspect, will large numbers of other current fans. Kraft and Co. are playing with fire and risk destroying both the League's competitiveness and their own economic well-being (the NFL's largest asset is still by far its network TV contracts) in the long-run. I hope they have the sense enough to see that, but I suspect that personal greed and a desire to secure (some would say an unfair) competitive advantage will win out here.

Maybe when the small market teams spend some of their own money to try to maximize the value and marketability of their own franchises - they might find large market teams more amenable to helping out. Or, would they just prefer to sit tight and let the handouts come thier way?? Wilson & Brown have a whole lot of of potential at thier disposal and they continue to do nothing.
 
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Fanetic.
Perhaps if you had the initiative to google bargaining agreement you would be satisfied about his part in the negotiations.
But I do think you are correct about the demise of the bargaining agreement and the end of the salary cap and parity in the NFL.
Start crying now for the small market teams, because the baseball model looks pretty good to me as a Red Sox fan. As long as there are rivalries there will be TV fans and CBS is partners with Kraft in his Foxboro development. The fact that your team becomes the football equivalent of the KC Royals does not upset me in the least.
The delicious irony of this situation is that right now the fans of the other teams are angry at the Pats for no good reason, but it is my sincerest hope that Kraft joins with the big market teams and give the fans of the small market teams something really to be angry about LOL.
If the bargaining agreemnt blows up don't look for Goodell to survive either.
 
Fanetic.
Perhaps if you had the initiative to google bargaining agreement you would be satisfied about his part in the negotiations.
But I do think you are correct about the demise of the bargaining agreement and the end of the salary cap and parity in the NFL.
Start crying now for the small market teams, because the baseball model looks pretty good to me as a Red Sox fan. As long as there are rivalries there will be TV fans and CBS is partners with Kraft in his Foxboro development. The fact that your team becomes the football equivalent of the KC Royals does not upset me in the least.
The delicious irony of this situation is that right now the fans of the other teams are angry at the Pats for no good reason, but it is my sincerest hope that Kraft joins with the big market teams and give the fans of the small market teams something really to be angry about LOL.
If the bargaining agreemnt blows up don't look for Goodell to survive either.

I take that to mean you've still got nothing on that link then. Careful what you wish for on that CBA point--nothing like being the world's tallest midget, which is what teams like the Yankees and Red Sox are without any real competition in their leagues. It also might be fun, I must admit to see the Pats turn into the Yankees of such a League--spending all that money for bubkus.

Also hope you enjoy paying $500 a ticket for Pats games then, 'cause that's about where Big Bob will take the prices in such a case to pay for his team's players. I thought he had chutzpah this year hiking the prices 30-40% like he did, but you all ain't seen nothing yet I suspect if the League goes uncapped. Only millionaires and corporates will be able to go (although from the lack of crowd noise I hear at your games I suspect you're most of the way there already--and before you rip on me on that one, I've read similar posts by your own fans on this very board bemoaning the lack of crowd noise at Gillette.)

In responding to the other poster above, I take it you don't understand the concept that a city that has 5 times or more that of Buffalo and is much more economically vibrant to boot has a natural advantage in terms of raising revenue (although I still find it comical that you still only had 19,000 season ticket holders in 1992--when Buffalo goes 3-13 like they did a few years ago they still had over 40,000 season ticket holders). Pretty simple concept really, that no amount of "marketing" is going to change. In fact, teams like Buffalo actually have been quite creative in opening their markets. The Bills opened their training camp in Rochester about 5 years ago to expand to the east (within reach of Roch and Syr) and now are playing a game a year in Toronto (the 5th largest city in North America I believe), so they may become a large market team yet.....
 
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I read that Kraft was one of the compromisers before believe it or not but that is moot now.You hit the nail on the head however. Baseball with the Yankees and Sox is doing just fine. I cant't wait for it to happen in football. Please remember that the abolition of the cap doesn't mean that the richer teams will spend wisely. Snyder with Skins and Johnson with the Jets will still screw it up, However with Belichick and Pioli doing the scouting and development we will be just fine and the Pats in the future won't lose players like Samuel that they developed.
This season was an eyeopener for Kraft and the Pats fans. They realized how an incompetent commissioner and an envious hostile press can turn a rules violation into a cause celebre. Now we have absolutely nothing to lose if other team's fans hate us when we take advantage of our market size.
You and the rest of the fans are laughing at the Pats misery now. But we will be gettting the last laugh in a couple of years:rocker:
 
Cry Football Fanetic....cryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!
 
You are correct sir. The whining has already started. The funny thing is that if the Pats had been treated fairly and even handedly by Goodell with a fair punishment and closure, I think Kraft and the Pats fans would have a lot warmer view of the other teams in the league. But they decided to single us out and make it an us versus them situation, some of the thems are going to like the results. LOL
 
nice...really like how you combined tape with ing and made the gerund tapeing out of it...some say it's the water in Indy...others say it the radioactivity...I say it's the space alien residue
 
you know...if he was a H grad..I think we all would have graduate degress from MIT...he's waiting for a link...funny how he sidesteps many questions when it is convenient and he has no answers...all typical..Maybe Kraft should have let the small market teams out to dry...they just seem to want handsout and DO nothing at all to optimize what money they have.. I don't think it will be like baseball..THAT will take awhile to happen...don't think it will..BUT with the CBA possibly in trouble and Goodell leading the pack..they could be in trouble..
 
Peyton
I am sure they have the noise machinery are ready to go in your new stadium. How is it going with Coach Dungy how many games has he set up for you to throw this year or are you going to wait and talk it over with Fisher. Have you chipped for new binoculars for Howard Mudd so he can steal signs better thius year. Apparently he hasn't done as well as he used on the Chargers.
 
PS I sure hope you don't lose any more sexual harassment suits. It wouldd be bad publicity for your commercial career.
Don't worry we are investigating anything
Your pal Roger Goodell
 
Joker, as regards your Langley insinuation, I work for no such agency.

Heh heh heh.

But seriously folks... good points all around except the Indy hick but hell, what do we expect. I'm going to agree to disagree with our more articulate guest.. maybe tomorrow I'll have the energy.

But I'd urge you try to quantify. After all we're trying to claim "everybody tampers" or "everybody spies." To me there are 2 levels:

Level 1 - you ascertain whether a situation is unique. Neither the tampering or the spying situations are unique.

Level 2 - you try to quantify your claims that "there's more going on with [team x]."

This is important. As we have seen, the media/bartalk snowball effect creates this anti-halo around the Pats. Everybody says... lots of things.

But let's not get twisted. We've established that the media talk and bar talk isn't accurate. Now let's see what of it is accurate: question what you read, view, and hear.

The 06 versus 07 memo example is one of my favorites, because you tell a whole different narrative if it's an 06 memo. Suddenly the Pats aren't only non-unique, they are in mid-cycle in the spy games with division opponents.

Now, we say nobody does it "to the extent or as much as the Pats." Well, what's the proof? Since we know the same rule was broken by the Jets in the same season, in what is obviously a retaliatory cycle, are we to infer that other such cases:

a) never occur, or
b) occur all the time, unreported?

Are we to infer that the first, second, and third instances of tape-related espionage in NFL history all happened in 06 and 07 ('Phins, Pats, Jets,) or is it more likely that gamesmanship has been ongoing for decades? To make the call easier, check out this Sport Magazine archive article from 1967:

http://www.thesportgallery.com/sport-stories/1967aug-nflspy.html

The 'Phins and Jets cases are public record as well, and this kind of thing is so normal in the league that I only stop there for the sake of brevity.

PS, I may be wrong on Kraft vis a vis the small market teams. He's a little squeeky, and he's very big-hearted. But I doubt he's not a little pissed off about the rest of the league piling on, rather than having his back. So yeah, maybe he doesn't mind making that transition. But nobody's made it yet.

PFnV
 
VA
I agree with your analysis for the most part. The question that arises is why Goodell hasn't treated the other teams the same way or the Pats or admitted the facts of the prevalence of this behavior in the league.
Unlike some people, I don't think that it is just coincidence that he used to work for the Jets and the Jets get off while their greatest rival gets slammed.
Kraft isn't stupid and he knows what Goodell is doing to cost him Tens or Hundreds of millions of dollars in the value of his franchise. I have no doubt if the baseball of domination by a few rich teams like the Sox and Yankees is what generates the most revenue and asset value for him, he will do it.
After being unfairly trashed by the media, Pats have nothing to lose by giving the small market teams something to reallt get angry about.
 
Speaking of crying, FlaSox--we'll see what happens if Walsh has that walkthrough tape some suspect he does. If you lost a 1st round pick for your past infractions, I wonder what you'll lose for that (other than your team's integrity, but some might argue that's already gone). Personally, I'd expect it to be at least BB and a whole boatload of draft picks and won't be satisfied with anything less, as will many other fans around the League, no matter how the Pats spin it that Walsh was a "lone gunman." (While I don't know Walsh personally, it's pretty plain to see from that Globe article that a hatchet job is being done on his character. Compare that article to the recent one I found on another board from a paper near his hometown that talked to people there about him and who only had positive things to say about him. What's the truth--who knows.) What you really need to be careful for in such a case is the rats trying to save themselves by offering up even more evidence of some of the other "suspected issues" around this team. It could get really ugly, especially if it gets so out of control that real independent investigators get involved. Then we'll see who's crying.....

As noted way above, however, I think that Goodell's interest and yours are aligned on this one. If Walsh has that tape, Goodell's also as good as gone and he knows it, since he's the genius who decided to let the Pats investigate themselves on Spygate and did nothing about it. Funny that it takes noise by Specter to get Goodell to admit details of the investigation (like the fact that the taping went back to 2000, which only came out in Feb.--prior to that, all we got was "there were 6 tapes from the last couple of years") or that there's an investigation regarding videotaping practices and they don't even bother to talk to at least one of the key guys in the Pats videotape dept. How does that look to objective observers? I'd say like someone very interested in sweeping this all under the rug. I'm not alone in that view outside of Boston--as also noted above, if you don't believe that I'm representative of non-NE fans, get out more. Goodell's between a rock and a hard place on this, no doubt about it at all.

In a nod to your more logical brother, VA, I must preface all this with a big "if" on the tape's existence. We don't know that it exists yet and it's possible (although I'd like to think, unlikely) that we'll never hear what Walsh has to say at all here, much less what he has. Still, I found it interesting that a few weeks ago Mike Fish at ESPN got Michael Levy to state that Walsh does have tapes of some kind, so it's probably a question of what he has not whether he has any. If it's just prior D signal stealing, then no big deal. If it's the Rams, however, or worse (which is theoretically possible, but probably not likely as I think we would have heard about it by now), then Goodell and the Pats are in the soup described above.

On the small market team stuff, I still laugh at the concept that Bob Kraft was out to help the small market teams. With friends like that....well, you know the rest.....
 
Speaking of crying, FlaSox--we'll see what happens if Walsh has that walkthrough tape some suspect he does. If you lost a 1st round pick for your past infractions, I wonder what you'll lose for that (other than your team's integrity, but some might argue that's already gone).

I tend to think Walsh has little but a pathological exaggerator's profile (and that's being generous.) It was early 2002. Jittery looking kids with Tommy guns attended your air travel at the time. There were metal detectors at some churches and synagogs. Hard to believe that functions associated with the Super Bowl had no security to keep out the "wrong" camera guy. But we'll see.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has wondered how they'll pull a way out of their patooties to steal our remaining 1st rounder, come by in a trade with the 9ers. At some point the reaction amounts to a 31-1 off-the-field battle to beat the Patriots, since they are, over the decade, the shadow over the league more often than not, in terms of on-field play.

I love today's article speculating that the Pats now lost a super bowl, because they didn't have the "camera" advantage. Sort of like "now watch them fall apart and go 8-8 without cameras" from early last season. Dudes, keep telling yourselves that.

Have a look at the various unproven, maybe this maybe that aspects of what your read about this story, and ask yourself one question:

Unless you simply want to expel the Patriots for doing what -- as I've established -- has been done repeatedly by others....

At what point does the league itself lose its credibility?

There is what's in the press, there is what we say here, then there is the truth. We're fans of this team, and we believe a very stiff penalty has been exacted, very much fueling the disproportionate hysteria about the infraction.

That punishment is, in my opinion, within the leeway of the Commish. I believe I understand the point: setting an example. It's pretty clear it's gotten away from him now.

So at what point does the Commish simply forfeit his legitimacy? Look around this forum - obviously, most Pats fans say he's already over that line.

Look around the league, and most other fans want more of the same... and question his legitimacy if he doesn't somehow remove the Silver and Blue boogieman from their nightmares.

What is the real truth? What is really the justice of the Jets getting a pass for their 2006 taping before the Pats' 2007 counter-taping?

Goodell has asked for more power to investigate when he does not have proof in his hand, like the Estrella tape from earlier this season. Seems likely to me he wants a way out fom the Jets-insider charge, and his response is "nobody brought it forward," and the bar against the Pats bringing it forward, was the lack of documentary evidence. In 2007 we were treated to the spectacle of Mangina crowing about how it's "business as usual" for other teams to operate against the rules, then Dungy and Fisher colluding on the course of a playoff-seeding-determining game. Just for examples.

I know how this works, Fanetic. You go in wanting to tease or taunt a little, or even discuss, you don't realize there's a "concensus" and how prickly the locals can be... and then, slowly, their point of view sinks in a bit.

I hope in my posts I've represented what is least emotionally suspect of our reactions. Ask yourself about the equivalent or worse cases around the league. Ask yourself why all these rough equivalencies are waved off as unimportant -- that is, what objective principal supports the waving-off.

There is no such objective principal. There is only the subjective principal that the Patriots are a different, black-hearted bunch, and that of course whatever they do is a whole different level of evil. Christ, look at the guy, he wears a hooded sweatshirt! He's Emperor Palpatine!

Remove yourself to objective analysis, and ask -- by what principle have we decided the "level of evil" we accuse the Pats of, as opposed to the long line of similar examples we could cite?

It's a matter of piling on. And what I personally have absolutely no patience for, is the notion that the Pats' "integrity" is damaged to some level approaching the infinite. I'd rather the Pats had not been busted. I'd rather the Pats had not been engaged in the same level of behavior the Jets, the Fins, the Colts and the Titans engaged in just in the last couple years.

But you'll get no mea culpas from me. Those four teams got free rides, and we've established that illegal roster-building tactics get you only a slap on the wrist in comparison, in the case of tampering.

We got caught, we paid. I don't like the league's notion of proportionality, but I can deal with the concept: "Clean up the League."

I think the unintended consequence here is that every other team which had lost something crucial to the Pats -- i.e., many of the elite teams in the league -- crawled out of the woodwork looking for retroactive super bowl victories. I don't think Goodell thought professional football players and coaches were such whiners that they thought they could get do-overs in the media. Now a Senator wants senatorial do-overs. To me, that was shocking (i.e. unexpeced) behavior, saying things like "can I get my ring now?"

Well, the example is made. Don't think that many Pats fans are walking around in hair shirts thinking.... "My God, they're right... how can we possibly atone for this?"

The enforcement is just too selective for such a reaction, and the rest of the league far too hypocritical.

And when you get to the subject of media...? I dunno. When a guy "slips up" on facts once, I think, "maybe that's a mistake." When it becomes his stock in trade, I start to think of it as fiction, not reporting.

PFnV
 
Fanetic
Just keep repeating to yourself that the alleged liar and thief and potential convict Walsh has something. Because if he doesn't ESPN and the Boston Herald will be paying sooner than later. I think the Pats would love to have Walsh show his hand and destroy him legally.
Why do persist in your illogic that Goodell is on the same side as the Pats. He was very careful to never say the case was closed when a unbiased commissioner like Rozelle or Tagliabue would have put this to rest as a rules violation like the cap violations of the 49ers and Broncos.
You mention real investigation and rats. Who pray tell is going to conduct the rreal investigation. Is it Spector who doesn't have the authority to screw a light bulb in to a socket in congress or is it Goodell who hasn't conducted an investigation all year. Maybe you know who leaked the Pats tape to Fox, that was going to be his first investigation.
We do know who the rat is and the biggesst one is wearing a green warmup jacket whose day in the NFL are numbered. Do you find it strange that even that rat hasn't come forward to corroborate Walsh's story.
I amazed that you keep on referring to the feeling of the fans in other cities as if that has the smallest bearting on the feeeling of the Pats fans. Sucessful teams like the Celtics in the prime and Yankees are always hated by envious fans of loser teams looking for an excuse for failure so be it for the Pats.
Just wait until the cap is gone and the gnashing of teeth in the small market cities as they can't compete. Then their fans will really have somehting to hate the Pats for LOL.:rocker:
 
VA, you are correct about one thing--in reading some of your posts, I have come to appreciate how others may have a different view. Not that I share it, mind you, but I can understand how others can reasonably have it, so that's something. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out.

FlaSox, we'll need to agree to disagree, I'm afraid. One last thing before I go--on your comments re: the small market versus big market teams, I wonder where you stand on the Yankees in such case and their yearly attempt to buy a World Series. Is what you're saying that you wouldn't mind if your team turned into a football version of the Yankees, trying to buy rings every year? I hope you realize how ironic that sounds coming from a presumed Red Sox fan (although I do follow sports enough to know that your team is number 2 in baseball payroll, but still a distant 2 behind the hated Yankees (hated even by me, you'll be glad to hear)).....
 
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