A Frustrating Observation On N'Keal Harry

[RobertWeathers]

It was BOB who was the OC at that time in 2010, McD joined in 2012 after Gronk and AH had their best season in 2011, even Gronk had not had more TD or Yards after 2011 and Gronk might be the best TE ever. It just might have to do something with how McD likes to call plays, perhaps he does not need 2 TEs or cannot call proper plays to attack with 2 TEs in the RZ but why would you pay that money in the FA to get 2 of them?

The notion of Josh not knowing how to use 2TEs is garbage.

It's all about the talent and TEs that know the system.

Marty coming from E/P was huge
Tim Wright came from E/P
Scott Chandler came from E/P

2005
Watson/Graham 45/666/7
2006
Watson/Graham 70/878/5
2007
Watson/K. Brady 45/459/8 (That year was all about 4 wide)
2008
Not a good year for TEs. Watson and nobody.

Result- When given personnel, Josh did fine with 2TEs

2009- DEN
Scheffler/Graham 59/605/3
2010-DEN
Not a good year for TEs

Result- When given personnel, Josh did fine with 2TEs. If we want to assail Josh for ****ty grocery picking in DEN, fine

2011- STL
Kendricks and a big mess

2012-2021

2012
Gronk/AH handful of games in which they had 6+ catches each. Both had injuries off/on

2013
Gronk hurt. AH killed people.

2014
Gronk had a great year and Tim Wright had 26 catches for 6TDs

2015
Gronk had a great year and Scott Chandler (sucked) had 23 catches and 6TDs

2016
Week 5- Brady is back and Gronk/Marty on the field together healthy 5 games together.

CLE
Gronk 5/109/0
Marty 6/67/3

CIN
Gronk 7/162/1
Marty 5/48/0

PIT
Gronk 4/93/1
Marty 1/5/0

Jills
Gronk 5/109/1
Marty 4/35/0

SEA
Gronk 3/56/0
Marty 7/102/0

2017
Gronk and Bennett and Allen

2018
Gronk and Allen

2019
Junk

2020
Junk

2021
Henry is fine but Smith needs to get more comfortable. He has zero background in E/P

 

[Pape]

That isn't entirely true - he looked good when he was put in the right situations.

practice & preseason games dont count.

 

[203Pat]

Ive mentioned it a few times but Zolack has said it a half dozen times the last few years on the radio broadcasts, he has trouble lining up. He calls it out live, pre snap, about how Harry looks confused, lined up wrong, or checking with the officials constantly. I don't know how in year 3 he still is having trouble with the most fundamental elements of playing receiver. He allegedly had a great Wonderlic score and nailed his interviews so one would assume he is smart enough so it makes even less sense that he hasn't figured out day one stuff. Everything Harry does he makes it look difficult and nothing looks to come naturally. I think we are in the final few games of the N'Keal Harry experience and parting ways would be good for both sides.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The notion of Josh not knowing how to use 2TEs is garbage.

It's all about the talent and TEs that know the system.

Marty coming from E/P was huge
Tim Wright came from E/P
Scott Chandler came from E/P

2005
Watson/Graham 45/666/7
2006
Watson/Graham 70/878/5
2007
Watson/K. Brady 45/459/8 (That year was all about 4 wide)
2008
Not a good year for TEs. Watson and nobody.

Result- When given personnel, Josh did fine with 2TEs

2009- DEN
Scheffler/Graham 59/605/3
2010-DEN
Not a good year for TEs

Result- When given personnel, Josh did fine with 2TEs. If we want to assail Josh for ****ty grocery picking in DEN, fine

2011- STL
Kendricks and a big mess

2012-2021

2012
Gronk/AH handful of games in which they had 6+ catches each. Both had injuries off/on

2013
Gronk hurt. AH killed people.

2014
Gronk had a great year and Tim Wright had 26 catches for 6TDs

2015
Gronk had a great year and Scott Chandler (sucked) had 23 catches and 6TDs

2016
Week 5- Brady is back and Gronk/Marty on the field together healthy 5 games together.

CLE
Gronk 5/109/0
Marty 6/67/3

CIN
Gronk 7/162/1
Marty 5/48/0

PIT
Gronk 4/93/1
Marty 1/5/0

Jills
Gronk 5/109/1
Marty 4/35/0

SEA
Gronk 3/56/0
Marty 7/102/0

2017
Gronk and Bennett and Allen

2018
Gronk and Allen

2019
Junk

2020
Junk

2021
Henry is fine but Smith needs to get more comfortable. He has zero background in E/P

Terrible post again.

The Watson Graham examples show he has zero clue. Deja vu. Always uses 1 TE as a glorified blocker. Has never totaled more than 1000 yards with 2 good tight ends. EVER.

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[RobertWeathers]

The Watson Graham examples show he has zero clue.

Explain.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Explain.

Why serve up 2 combined TEs for 700 yards as a success. Nope. He has no clue how to use 2nd TE

 

[RobertWeathers]

Why serve up 2 combined TEs for 700 yards as a success. Nope. He has no clue how to use 2nd TE

I'm asking you why you believe Josh didn't do a good job with Watson and Graham in 2005 & 2006.

Watson has always been a receiving TE and Danny a blocking TE who can get down the field. Both always had inconsistent hands and limited in their own unique ways.

Explain.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I'm asking you why you believe Josh didn't do a good job with Watson and Graham in 2005 & 2006.

Watson has always been a receiving TE and Danny a blocking TE who can get down the field. Both always had inconsistent hands and limited in their own unique ways.

Explain.

I'm not going to go into Watson and Graham as you re-frame and sabotage a NKeal Harry thread. Net-net you just showed the crappy 2005 and 2006 total TE receiving yards totals and they are not great. Except you tried to serve it up as if it were a success. NOPE. 600 combined receiving yards across 2 first round pick TEs is not a win. I distinctly remember the sh-tty 2005 and 2006 seasons. McDaniels didn't know how to use both TEs, got Brady hit a ton, and the WRs so bad (sounds like deja vu 2019/2020) that Brady complained and they revamped going into 2007.

If this is your argument that the current oc knows how to use 2 tight ends because look at 2005 and 2006, then this is a loss for you. Keep trying.

 

[Hawaiianpatsfan2]

Another sad thing. When's the last time the Pats were this bad at home? Pre-BB I think. Maybe even pre-Parcells.

Weve never been the loudest crowd, but I was really disappointed by the Home fans last week. It was a really important Drive late in the fourth quarter, when Buffalo got the ball, and the entire crowd was quiet. Even after several players waving their arms to hype up the crowd, the noise was barely noticeable. Again who knows what’s going on, but it seemed a little fair weather.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'm not going to go into Watson and Graham as you re-frame and sabotage a NKeal Harry thread.

You commented on my post with a statement about Josh/Watson/Graham in a Harry thread. I asked you to offer an explanation. You engaged. This is the discussion. If you want to withdraw, go for it.

Net-net you just showed the crappy 2005 and 2006 total TE receiving yards totals and they are not great. Except you tried to serve it up as if it were a success. NOPE. 600 combined receiving yards across 2 first round pick TEs is not a win. I distinctly remember the sh-tty 2005 and 2006 seasons.

Your argument would be supported if they sucked under Josh thus your argument fails as they did not experience a precipitous drop off in production playing for Josh representative of their average career years. Stats support that. Yes, they were drafted in the first round but what does that have to do with Josh? It's irrelevant.

McDaniels didn't know how to use both TEs, got Brady hit a ton, and the WRs so bad (sounds like deja vu 2019/2020) that Brady complained and they revamped going into 2007.

Brady was sacked 26 times in 2006. He was not hit a ton. When did Brady complain? Post a link citing that quote.

If this is your argument that the current oc knows how to use 2 tight ends because look at 2005 and 2006, then this is a loss for you. Keep trying.

Josh had TEs who combined for 1000k+ in 2012 and 2016. When given the talent, he's done fine with it.

Sorry but the loss is on you for failing to look at data and context over a historical period.

 

[Betterthanmost]

@Ian, how about Mac? Was there plays to be made or our skill position just sucks?
I don’t understand what he sees when he releases his deep balls. They have concerned me a bit but need to get hands on 22s to validate discard my Mac concerns.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Y

Actually I took a quick glance at their production. Definitely their worst years were with McD and they had multiple better years on non-Pats teams. Both Watson and Graham.

But it's fine, you can keep thinking the oc is good with 2 TEs while we just had a game where he sat Jonnu most of the game and NKeal Harry got twice the number of total snaps as Jonnu. Also the same oc who had the worst TE production in the league in 2020, 2011, 2010, and 2009.

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[RobertWeathers]

Actually I took a quick glance at their production. Definitely their worst years were with McD and they had multiple better years on non-Pats teams. Both Watson and Graham.

No. Look a little further than a quick glance.

But it's fine, you can keep thinking the oc is good with 2 TEs while we just had a game where he sat Jonnu most of the game and NKeal Harry got twice the number of total snaps as Jonnu. Also the same oc who had the worst TE production in the league in 2020, 2011, 2010, and 2009.

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But had the best in 2012 and 2016. Josh utilized his talent properly when they were available

Did the TEs in the years you mention have great years elsewhere not coached by Josh?

 

[DropKickFlutie]

No. Look a little further than a quick glance.

But had the best in 2012 and 2016. Josh utilized his talent properly when they were available

Did the TEs in the years you mention have great years elsewhere not coached by Josh?

I just took a look and your claims are disingenuous. 2012 was basically just running O'Brien's offense for 790 and 480 combined TE yards. 2013 was a total regression as expected in terms of this offensive production as the oc did what he wanted and still no clue on how to use 2 TEs for the next [forever] years.

Gronk in 2016 started only 6 games so thanks for proving you are a non-credible biased homer.

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[RobertWeathers]

I just a look and your claims are disingenuous. 2012 was basically just running O'Brien's offense for 790 and 480 combined TE yards.

BOB doesn't have an offense.

It's the E/P offense. Hence BBs offense which was run by Weis, Josh and BOB.

2013 was a total regression as expected in terms of this offensive production as the oc did what he wanted and still no clue on how to use 2 TEs.

Gronk blew out his knee vs CLE. AH gone. Need context in your analysis.

Gronk in 2016 started only 6 games

The production of Marty and Gronk during the same 5 games shows simultaneous production with 2TEs.

so thanks for proving you are a non-credible biased homer.

I'm trying to have a football discussion with you based on stats and context without name-calling.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

BOB .

Ok let's go over this.

1. Hernandez had his worst year with McD after BOB. Even adjusted on a per game or whatever metric basis. I remember this year when Hernandez was doing weird things as an HBack because again the oc has no clue how to use 2 pass catching TEs.
2. 2013 nose dives, ok you say injury, but it goes back to the same predicable stats expected from crappy spread shotgun offense.
3. 2016, Gronk only started 6 games. Again this shows the oc finally learned how to use maybe ONE te at a time. Bennett got his stats as the lone TE with Gronk out.
4. 2019 and 2020 again show how little the OC cared about tight end play. An absolute disaster. Same as in 2011, 2010, 2009. The guy doesn't care about TEs unless it's a forced situation like HOF Gronk.

There is zero evidence the oc is a right fit for 2 good pass catching TEs. All he knows is to treat the 2nd TE like a glorified blocker (Dwayne Allen, Graham). He isn't even trying to deploy plays where Jonny excels.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Video: Receivers taken after NKeal Harry.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Ok let's go over this.

1. Hernandez had his worst year with McD after BOB. Even adjusted on a per game or whatever metric basis. I remember this year when Hernandez was doing weird things as an HBack because again the oc has no clue how to use 2 pass catching TEs.

He was used the same and had a high-ankle sprain middle of the year. Need context. He actually had more rushes under BOB. Are you suggesting AH should have been used as more of an in-line TE and not an H-back?

2. 2013 nose dives, ok you say injury, but it goes back to the same predicable stats expected from crappy spread shotgun offense.

They didn't run spread in 2013. They actually stayed pretty much in 11 and ran for over 2k yards. They adapted once Gronk went down.

3. 2016, Gronk only started 6 games. Again this shows the oc finally learned how to use maybe ONE te at a time. Bennett got his stats as the lone TE.

Not accurate. Marty and Gronk had multiple games of solid production together on the same field.

4. 2019 and 2020 again show how little the OC cared about tight end play. An absolute disaster.

Because the personnel was horrible.

There is zero evidence the oc is a right fit for 2 good pass catching TEs. All he knows is to treat the 2nd TE like a glorified blocker (Dwayne Allen, Graham). He isn't even trying to deploy plays where Jonny excels.

There is plenty. Need to have two TEs who can catch. When Josh had 2, they did that.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The

Here's an example of your biased crap analysis.
2017 Allen puts up 80 yards all year. Bennett puts up 50 yards all year. You serve this up as an example year above of using 2 good TEs well in the passing game.

Total garbage.

You're an organizational shill.

2017 New England Patriots Rosters, Stats, Schedule, Team Draftees, Injury Reports | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2017 New England Patriots Roster, Stats, Schedule, Team Draftees, Injury Reports and more on Pro-Football-Reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[RobertWeathers]

Here's an example of your biased crap analysis.
2017 Allen puts up 80 yards all year. Bennett puts up 50 yards all year. You serve this up as an example above of using 2 good TEs well in the passing game.

Total garbage.

You're an organizational shill.

2017 New England Patriots Rosters, Stats, Schedule, Team Draftees, Injury Reports | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2017 New England Patriots Roster, Stats, Schedule, Team Draftees, Injury Reports and more on Pro-Football-Reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Whats with the name-calling?

All i'm doing is challenging your statements.

Allen is a blocking TE with hands of stone which is why he only had 80 yds in 2017 and was on the downside of his career when he got here and Marty played only 2 games and went on IR b/c of a messed up shoulder and retired.