A Balanced Look at the Defense

[IllegalContact]

Have you compared that "bunch" to what other teams have played?

Here is the Ravens' schedule by QB:

Roethlisberger
Hasselbeck
Bradford
Sanchez
Schaub
Gabbert
Kolb
Roethlisberger
Jackson
Dalton
Smith
McCoy

The Pats haven't played "easy" QBs by any means. Heck, the Ravens have only played Big Ben (2x) and Schaub. Maybe Dalton and Hasselbeck, if you want to throw them in, but neither of them is much better than Campbell or Fitzpatrick early in the season.

If anything, I'd hazard a guess that the Patriots have faced just as many "good" QBs this year as any team in the league.

I don't think the defense is "good," but there are a lot of fallacious arguments being made against them, and a lot of people trying to make the situation look worse than it really is.

its a superior list to the pats, that's for sure.....

 

[borg]

So now we only compare "competive" series????

Since the Patriots have given up 1,600 yds in the air MORE than Baltimore this season and 1350 yds more than Pitt....I guess it will be explained that the Pats averaged yielding about 100-130 yds/game of garbage time reception yds....being that only the Patriots give up garbage yards at the end of their games....no need examining other games.

 

[Ring 6]

So now we only compare "competive" series????

Since the Patriots have given up 1,600 yds in the air MORE than Baltimore this season and 1350 yds more than Pitt....I guess it will be explained that the Pats averaged yielding about 100-130 yds/game of garbage time reception yds....being that only the Patriots give up garbage yards at the end of their games....no need examining other games.

What are you talking about?
Who is comparing yardage? Or anything else?
I am looking at the defenses contribution to winning or losing.
GIVEN anything you want to cherry pick that happened along the way, the end result is what the defense contributed to winning or losing. If you want to say they did it in spite of passing yards, go ahead. But the number of passing yards does not compete against the result of the game as a means of assessment.

The Patriot defense really stinks at not allowing yards late with big leads when they are mostly concerned with eliminating the big play because without a bizarre series of big plays the other team doesnt have enough time to win.
Does that even matter?

 

[Ring 6]

its a superior list to the pats, that's for sure.....

No it isnt

 

[Ring 6]

everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it is a stretch to call the OP 'balanced'

Why? It lists the defenses contribution to winning or losing game by game.
How is that not balance.

the same things that caused the losses to the bills and giants are things that are prevalent in most games which is very poor 4th quarter defense.

I completely disagree. What a defense does in a tie game is night and day different from what it does up 28 wiht 19 minutes left.

the cowboys killed themselves by not trusting romo to make at least one throw in trying to protect the lead.

That an unsubstantiated opinion, and really has nothing to do with the way the defense played. They played well enough to win the game. You are making excuses.

for the most part, the defense has failed to prove that it can make a stop in the 4th quarter.

Each game is listed above. Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. In many games it didnt matter because the game was over. 9 times they played well enough to deserve to win, and 3 times they did not.

its not just defensive issues with the pats......its the magnitude and even more importantly, the QB's who the pats have faced
henne
rivers
fitzpatrick
campbell
sanchez
romo
roethlisberger
manning
sanchez
palko
young
orlovsky

the pats are dead last at the hands of this bunch?

Dead last in what? 9-3 is not dead last. Playing defense well enough to deserve to win 9 times in 12 games is not dead last.
Maybe it will mess up your StratOMatic season, but who really cares how many yards you surrender in a win?

 

[Clonamery]

...who really cares how many yards you surrender in a win?

Frustrated, spoiled Superfans.

 

[Funktopus]

So now we only compare "competive" series????

I think for the premise of this thread, yes.

Since the Patriots have given up 1,600 yds in the air MORE than Baltimore this season and 1350 yds more than Pitt....I guess it will be explained that the Pats averaged yielding about 100-130 yds/game of garbage time reception yds....being that only the Patriots give up garbage yards at the end of their games....no need examining other games.

It doesn't seem necessary to examine the performance of teams in other games to evaluate the premise that the NE defense performs better (measured by yards or scoring) when the outcome of the game is still in doubt.

 

[borg]

What are you talking about?
Who is comparing yardage? Or anything else?
I am looking at the defenses contribution to winning or losing.
GIVEN anything you want to cherry pick that happened along the way, the end result is what the defense contributed to winning or losing. If you want to say they did it in spite of passing yards, go ahead. But the number of passing yards does not compete against the result of the game as a means of assessment.

The Patriot defense really stinks at not allowing yards late with big leads when they are mostly concerned with eliminating the big play because without a bizarre series of big plays the other team doesnt have enough time to win.
Does that even matter?

Now the Buffalo game doesn't get factored in either....still trying to remember the bizarre plays that aided in that meltdown.
And are you throwing out the 4th qtr of the Indy game. A onside kick recovery from possibly tying it up. Under your system of selective cherry picking, the 4th quarter only counts if Indy revovers the kick. But since they didn't, wipe those points from the discussion of defensive effectiveness. Pretty nice owning both sides of an arguement.

 

[ausbacker]

Andy, I took the time to write out a 2 hour response to your initial post breaking down the yards per drive, the result per drive (punt, TD, FG, turnover), scoring at the time and offensive output per game compared to the offensive seasonal output per game.

At the end of it, I just couldn't be bothered submitting it because it would have caused another shítfest between you and I and frankly, I've had enough of them. What it did support was my initial claim, the defense isn't as bad as some people are advocating and it's not as good as you've suggested it's been.

The defense is middle of the road providing a complimentary service to a dominant offense. That's the conclusion that I came too. For the Pats to win a championship, Brady's O will need to be lights out and the D will need to play to their maximum capability.

On a sidenote, what the research illustrated is how much of a weapon Mesko has become with his ability to boom punts for favorable field position.

 

[IllegalContact]

No it isnt

Yes it is......

 

[IllegalContact]

Why? It lists the defenses contribution to winning or losing game by game.
How is that not balance.


I completely disagree. What a defense does in a tie game is night and day different from what it does up 28 wiht 19 minutes left.


That an unsubstantiated opinion, and really has nothing to do with the way the defense played. They played well enough to win the game. You are making excuses.


Each game is listed above. Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. In many games it didnt matter because the game was over. 9 times they played well enough to deserve to win, and 3 times they did not.


Dead last in what? 9-3 is not dead last. Playing defense well enough to deserve to win 9 times in 12 games is not dead last.
Maybe it will mess up your StratOMatic season, but who really cares how many yards you surrender in a win?

Didn't you learn anything about 14-2 last year?

 

[Ring 6]

Now the Buffalo game doesn't get factored in either....still trying to remember the bizarre plays that aided in that meltdown.

What? I included the Buffalo game as a horrible defensive failure. What do you want to do, count it 3 or 4 times?

And are you throwing out the 4th qtr of the Indy game.

I am because the game was over. The defense was playing with the time remaining in the game being the most critical factor.

A onside kick recovery from possibly tying it up. Under your system of selective cherry picking, the 4th quarter only counts if Indy revovers the kick.

Im not cherry picking anything. I considered the defenses impact in winning or losing, and those drives after the game was decided are irrelevant.

But since they didn't, wipe those points from the discussion of defensive effectiveness. Pretty nice owning both sides of an arguement.

I'm not arguing anything, I am pointing out facts. I am sorry that the facts leave you less to whine about as a fan who feels entitled. Good luck with that.

 

[Ring 6]

Didn't you learn anything about 14-2 last year?

What does that mean? Since the 14-2 Patriots lost a playoff game, every opinion about everything they do must be whiny, paranoid and negative?

 

[Ring 6]

Yes it is......

My father could beat up your father.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Far too positive in light of the defense ignoring too many critical factors Andy. When I have some more time, I'll break down a proper response for you.

As a general position, the defense isn't as bad as people are saying and it's not been as good as you're attempting to illustrate.

Have to agree with this outlook. I think if McCourty/Arrington/Chung/Wilfork/Carter/Ninko and one of Spikes/Fletcher is full strength for the playoffs, we have a solid chance to make it through the AFC playoffs fine without Brady having to play superhuman. The defense is doing better than alot of people give it credit for.

However the thought of us going against Brees or Rodgers is downright frightening at this point. The last decent QB's we faced were Eli and Roethlisberger. Roeth tore us a new one and Eli torched us when it mattered- sure the offense had a big part to blame in the NYG game but still, that 4th quarter was brutal. We're getting better but until we play a real offense we won't know just how much better we are.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, I took the time to write out a 2 hour response to your initial post breaking down the yards per drive, the result per drive (punt, TD, FG, turnover), scoring at the time and offensive output per game compared to the offensive seasonal output per game.

At the end of it, I just couldn't be bothered submitting it because it would have caused another shítfest between you and I and frankly, I've had enough of them. What it did support was my initial claim, the defense isn't as bad as some people are advocating and it's not as good as you've suggested it's been.

I am not suggesting anything. I am taking opinion out of it, and looking game by game at whether the defense did or didnt contribute to a win or loss.
If that results in you thinking it makes the defense look better than your subjective means of evaluating it, then you should recognize that your subjective method must be wrong.
I am talking about the RESULT and you are trying to say the factors that led to the result are a better yardstick than the result itself. How do you not get that this means you picked a poor yardstick?
By the way I have not made any comment about 'how good the defense is' which you seem to want to frame as the question to start an argument.
I am assessing their contribution to the team. You are free to disagree with any of my conclusion about any of the 12 games, but to generalize away from a factual analysis is to say you can't refute it.

The defense is middle of the road providing a complimentary service to a dominant offense.

The facts dont really show that unless the middle of the road is playing well enough to deserve to win 9 times and poorly enough to deserve to lose 3.

That's the conclusion that I came too. For the Pats to win a championship, Brady's O will need to be lights out and the D will need to play to their maximum capability.

That is complete conjecture. We have won many games, handily, where Brady wasn't 'lights out' and the defense probably still hasn't played to its maximum capability yet and they deserved to win 9 times.

Once again there really is nothing for us to debate. I am talking about the RESULTS of what this defense has done, and you are trying to predict what you think the results will be in the future based upon the factors that produced the result being more important than the result.
Our defense despite being last in passing yardage has played well enough to deserve to win 9 of 12 games.
You have turned this into, because our defense is ranked last in passing yards it will not be able to play well enough to deserve to win.
There is no point to really discussing your position that adds up to "The things that they did that added up to winning cannot add up to winning"

On a sidenote, what the research illustrated is how much of a weapon Mesko has become with his ability to boom punts for favorable field position.

I'm sure there is a joke in here somewhere, but frankly its a valid as anything else you drew from looking at these facts.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, I took the time to write out a 2 hour response to your initial post breaking down the yards per drive

Oh, and WOW.

 

[ausbacker]

Sigh, whatever Andy.

 

[RDS11]

The facts dont really show that unless the middle of the road is playing well enough to deserve to win 9 times and poorly enough to deserve to lose 3.

If this defense isn't middle of the road, where are you placing them ? Top 10 ? Top 5 ?

 

[smg93]

What it did support was my initial claim, the defense isn't as bad as some people are advocating and it's not as good as you've suggested it's been.

The defense is middle of the road providing a complimentary service to a dominant offense. That's the conclusion that I came too. For the Pats to win a championship, Brady's O will need to be lights out and the D will need to play to their maximum capability.

Exactly! As mentioned in an earlier post, comparing this team against all 32 teams would likely show that ours is perhaps just a bit better than middle of the road in terms of points allowed. When comparing it with just the top 1/3rd of the league who are likely playoff bound, the team's points against is more towards the bottom of that list.

The biggest reason this team is 9-3 however is that the offense has been outstanding. It's a quick strike offense that can win games even if the Pats are losing the Time of Possession battle (26th in the league) because the defense is on the field so much with so few three and outs or at least short series'.