PostGame Thread 2023 Week 2: Patriots Lose to Dolphins 24-17

[GaryfromTO]

Time to change the teams name to the New England Shrimps.

We're gonna be bottom feeders for the forseeable future

 

[Real fan 02]

A dollar short and a day late again!

At least we don't need to worry about losing to Jets so 2 wins there.

Mac again fails to get a game winning drive.

Not so sure about that.. Jets always present problems.. we had difficulty moving the ball against Miami who isn't in the same caliber as the Jets D.. going to be another slug fest next week.. if we go 0-3 heading into Dallas.. when does the buy in stop?

 

[Real fan 02]

Barmore did what tonight? On the radio, Zo ragged on Godchaux a number of times. It was deserved. Big contract and didn’t make plays tonight.

It appeared the plan on D was to allow them to run.. didn't want to give it all to Miami in 1 play. However with the skill guys forcing us to play zone with 3 safeties. Easy completions, sustained drives, key guys not available, why is Wade still on this team? The D line will have thier hands full against breece Hall and cook next week!

 

[sb1]

Some thoughts:

- First, the good. Christian Gonzalez is the real deal. He blanketed Hill most of the night. He just plucked that INT out of the air. That was a high degree of difficulty INT.
- The Pats need to pay Duggar before he goes on the open market. If he makes the open market, he is gone. Someone is going to overpay him.
- This loss is on Belichick. We knew the offensive line was awful last year, but I would take that o-line over the one they fielded the last two weeks. They can't pass block. They can't run block. They can't really do anything. The lack of quality receiver talent is also a huge issue. Parker and Bourne are good #2s, but they ain't #1s.
- Mac Jones really needs to work on passing to the right sidelines. It was a concern last week. It was an issue last night.
- Benching Douglas for the fumble is something you do when you have a good team. When you have piss poor o-line that is going to get your QB killed and he doesn't have the greatest options to throw to, you cannot take one of your more product receivers off the field to give them a teaching moment.
- What happened to Christian Barmore? One tackle last night. After his rookie season, we were talking of him possibly being one of the more productive tackles in the league. Now he is an afterthought.
- Another year and another bad run defense because the Patriots are too slow to keep up with the speed of some of these RBs.
- I can't believe I am saying this, but Felger is right. We are going to go another season without knowing what Mac Jones truly is. We know he isn't an elite QB. We know he cannot carry below average offensive talent like Brady did. We know some of his strengths and weaknesses, but we don't know if he can be a good QB with actually having some talent around him. And guess what? Most QBs in this league aren't good without talent around him. See Tua. See Hurts. See Geno Smith. See Baker Mayfield so far this year. If the Patriots replace Mac and give the next guy the talent Mac has, we will be in same boat unless the Pats get lucky and get the next elite QB. Mac Jones wasn't the problem last night. He shows signs of being a really good QB at times. But we cannot know if he can really reach that potential with the talent the Patriots have.
- It is only the second week of the season so this opinion could drastically change over the season. But if the team continues on this trend, it is time to move on from Belichick. Although last week showed some positive signs, this team is shaping up to be the same or worse team from last year. There is a serious talent issue going on with this team. Belichick's blind spot to the need for speed on defense and the value of an elite WR is also killing this team. He is running this team as if he still has Brady to cover up all the deficiencies on this team. Mac Jones isn't a guy who can do that. At this rate, Belichick won't get Shula's record until 2025. Do we need to have three years of mediocre football to allow Belichick to retire on his own terms?

Right.

I see a lot of talk of keeping BB the coach and give someone else the GM role in charge of building the roster. I really can’t see BB agreeing to that so it’s both roles or he walks/retires. What does Kraft do with that dilemma? I don’t think he’s that thrilled with what he’s seeing.

Like last week I feel exactly the same about Mac as I did before the game. Last night was another showcase of who he is. We already know he’s much more likely a QB who won’t lose many games for a team by himself and can win with the right team/system around him instead of a guy who can carry an offense and elevate his teammates to be better than they are. No shame in that, there are many QBs in the league who are the latter and very few of the former. But then it’s up to the GM that acknowledge that instead of imagining Brady is still here and build a roster for the latter type of QB. Many times the first round pick QBs don’t work out at all… ask Bills fans what they think of JP Losman and EJ Manuel.

The defense…now that was a disappointment even with health issues. Tua had all day to throw most of the time and imo the Miami OL isn’t that great. If a Mostert can get 6.7 YPC then yikes.

0-2 isn’t time to panic but 0-3 with a loss to Zach Wilson might be.

 

[Real fan 02]

Right.

I see a lot of talk of keeping BB the coach and give someone else the GM role in charge of building the roster. I really can’t see BB agreeing to that so it’s both roles or he walks/retires. What does Kraft do with that dilemma? I don’t think he’s that thrilled with what he’s seeing.

Like last week I feel exactly the same about Mac as I did before the game. Last night was another showcase of who he is. We already know he’s much more likely a QB who won’t lose many games for a team by himself and can win with the right team/system around him instead of a guy who can carry an offense and elevate his teammates to be better than they are. No shame in that, there are many QBs in the league who are the latter and very few of the former. But then it’s up to the GM that acknowledge that and build a roster for the latter type of QB. Many times the first round pick QBs don’t work out at all… ask Bills fans what they think of JP Losman and EJ Manuel.

The defense…now that was a disappointment even with health issues. Tua had all day to throw most of the time and imo the Miami OL isn’t that great. If a Mostert can get 6.7 YPC then yikes.

0-2 isn’t time to panic but 0-3 with a loss to Zach Wilson might be.

Exactly correct. We know the offense is still a work in progress.. as alot of NFL offenses are right now. But the defense yes was a disappointment.. now breece Hall & cook are next!

 

[stcjones]

I never once said Mac over Tua, that's first of all. I stated he actually had a better QB rating than Tua w weapons in this game.

I also acknowledge his bad throws but there were plenty of good plays he made today while being rushed as well.

And he actually did make a pretty good throw off his back foot late in this game....

I seen him 2 times now so far come back from playing like crap. That was last week.

And moved the team late in today's game twice.

He's not Zac Wilson...if u wanna compare QBs.

Would u rather Z.Wilson or Mac?

I am not saying Mac is our future QB, but blaming the dude for everything and never talking about other factors at all is wild to me, and just a cheap hot take that is gonna keep being brought up the minute the kid as much as trips on a play.

I think Mac and Tua are pretty equal honestly….. Miami was actively trying to find other quarterback talents, including Tom Brady just a year and a half ago it seems because they didn’t think Tua was the guy. Then they could bring in hill and waddle… With Hill being on of the most explosive offensive players generally in the past decade. I think unless Matt goes to another team that has elite wide receivers and a very good offensive line…you’ll never know how good he is….

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Right.

I see a lot of talk of keeping BB the coach and give someone else the GM role in charge of building the roster. I really can’t see BB agreeing to that so it’s both roles or he walks/retires. What does Kraft do with that dilemma? I don’t think he’s that thrilled with what he’s seeing.

Like last week I feel exactly the same about Mac as I did before the game. Last night was another showcase of who he is. We already know he’s much more likely a QB who won’t lose many games for a team by himself and can win with the right team/system around him instead of a guy who can carry an offense and elevate his teammates to be better than they are. No shame in that, there are many QBs in the league who are the latter and very few of the former. But then it’s up to the GM that acknowledge that and build a roster for the latter type of QB. Many times the first round pick QBs don’t work out at all… ask Bills fans what they think of JP Losman and EJ Manuel.

The defense…now that was a disappointment even with health issues. Tua had all day to throw most of the time and imo the Miami OL isn’t that great. If a Mostert can get 6.7 YPC then yikes.

I wouldn’t say no to a NT who may makes 15 snaps a game for our first down run defense. This would allow to move god to 3 or 5 T depending on the alignment and bench guy/ have guy for rotation/ or may even upgrade guy although I like guy a lot.

BB needs to move on from this slow statue type of LB, they are useless , at least only play one of them but not 2

0-2 isn’t time to panic but 0-3 with a loss to Zach Wilson might be.

If I imagine this Jets defense against our o line , this is not a recipe for success
Franklyn Meyer crushed and pankaced from the DE position Steele with ease

 

[Patsfan1958]

 

[Ian]

Say for argument's sake, your HC replaces those 10+ win seasons with an under .500 record for those 3 seasons. They start 0-2 and excuse making aside, don't look great. Also, the HC's plan is to replace 10+ wins with Cam and a noodle armed QB who isn't the shadow of Pennington pre-injury.

If you play the devil's advocate, when is the owner's time to let it go? It being the HC. He can't coach until 80 just to get a record.

It's tough. Most coaches get fired when they have games where it's clear guys just aren't buying in. Right now, that isn't the case. They lost two close games based a fair amount on the fact that they're coming off of injuries up front and ultimately couldn't overcome it. Last week, it was in the ground game that was largely an issue, last night, they were better there but had trouble with guys coming off the right side and at times from inside.

But it all comes down to how the season goes. If there's internal strife or dysfunction and they finish with something crazy like 6-11, 7-10, then maybe it's a different story. Context is always part of it. Still, we're two weeks in and if they can get it together and the guys up front can string some starts together with the same group, things could look different a few weeks from now.

 

[Wozzy]

1ST Half​

Drive 1 - Get to the Miami 43. After a short run on first down that went nowhere, Cole Strange allows a linebacker free access to Mac and a 2nd and 12 becomes a 3rd and 21. Missed block/assignment.

Drive 2 - Move the ball to the Mia 41, Demario Douglas makes a great move after getting the first down for more easy yards, then carries it like a loaf of bread. Fumble.

Drive 3 - Just a dull series, no pushing the ball downfield or at least completing that long play to Bourne... they tried I guess. The deep game needs work.

Drive 4 - Sustain a drive to the Miami to the Miami 32 1st & 10. First play holding now 1st & 20 and have to settle for a FG. In Strange's defense, that wasn't a hold.

2ND Half ​

Drive 1 - Drove to the Miami 42. Run blocking was not good all night, part of it was improved play by the Phins, part of it was uninspired play by our OL, missed blocks and some poor play calling mixed in.

Drive 2 - Again, get to the Miami 33 1st and 10 throw an INT on a 3rd and 2 was a bad decision by Mac, either drive it downfield and make Parker go get it or don't throw it at all. That's Xavien Howard over there, not some pushover.

Drive 3 - TD

Drive 4 - Only drive of the half not in Miami territory due to poor blitz recognition and missed blocks.

Drive 5 - TD

Drive 6 - The key play was going from 1st and 10 at the Miami 39 with 1:39 left to 2nd and 18 at the Miami 47. That sack hurt.


Conclusion: It's a team problem, but for sure that offensive line has to get right. The run blocking and blown assignments in pass blocking were a massive problem all game. Adrian Klemm needs to do better.

Typical Patriot's team in the first month of every season.... only the schedule is much harder and Mac isn't Brady. They can improve, but only if they look in the mirror and realize the problem is them. It starts with better coaching. It's not a lack of talent, it's a lack of execution. Judon summed it up perfectly in his post game presser:

“I know we lost. I know it looks bad when you start (0-2). But this is not a bad team, so don’t get to asking those kind of questions. We’re going to speak matter of fact, but I don’t think we’re about to hang our head up here or in that locker room. “We’ve got to just play how we play in the second half from the first play. We’ve got to get the crowd involved from the get-go. When we take the field, it’s got to have some type of energy. We’ve got to have some type of juice. We can’t wait until we’re down 17. We can’t wait until we’re down 13 to try to make a comeback.”

“It’s too hard in this league. It’s too hard in this league. People are too good, schemes are too good. You don’t have enough time. So you can’t play from behind. You can’t come out here and have slow starts. I think that’s what we’re doing, and we’ve got to get it correct and have a faster start.”

It’s this ^… along with getting healthy.

 

[Triumph]

Time to change the teams name to the New England Shrimps.

We're gonna be bottom feeders for the forseeable future

What about the NE Lobsters?

Kraft could segway by selling $20.00 Lobster rolls in lieu of the current $10.00 hot dogs. Pure profit.

 

[State]

I need the next draft to be HEAVY on offense.

That was the thought in April. But we went defense heavy. Why? Last season the Apatriots had the second oldest offense.

We didn’t address the tackle position and we all knew it needed addressing.

Yes. Spot on. Homers will say we did—by drafting Sidy Sow, the guard from Eastern Michigan. Normally, tackles are drafted to play tackle. Sometimes if they’re undersized they get moved inside. Like Isaiah Wynn. Who played well last night.

Also White does not get a mention in the defence stats , what happened to him ??

Good question. Add in Barmore. Miami’s DT Christian Wilkins was the best DLinemen by far on the field last night.

I miss Scar. I think the team misses him too.

Well, true. But people forget the two young kids got something good going after Dante, Cole Popovich and the guy now with the Raiders. Popovich was kicked out of the league for refusing the experimental and dangerous jab. He is a very promising OL coach. Did wonders at Troy last season.

He is now back in the NFL with the Texans.

Besides the dumpster fire at the OL, this team was exposed at the lack of speed at the middle linebacker position. And what’s with not having a TE that can block.

There are holes galore on the Patriots.

Why didn’t Mapu play LB?

 

[FCB02062]

0-2 isn't panic time...perhaps...but what about 1-3? A third consecutive 1-3 start is a distinct possibility (most objective fans would say 1-3 is a likelihood) for Bill the Coach. There's a reason Vegas had the Pats favored in, what, 3 games, before the season started. When I look at the schedule I can't say, yup, there's an easy win. The other teams score too many points. Prior to the season, I would have said Washington, Indianapolis, Denver...But Washington put up 35, Denver scored 33, and Indianapolis racked up 31 points. I don't the Patriots, with their 2 yards and a cloud of dust run game, and their 4.5 ypa passing game, can crack 24 points without a defensive or special teams score. Giants pulled off a 21 point comeback and they put up 31, San Diego put up 24 and 34.
I look at the schedule and I see only the J E T S JETS JETS JETS, Oakland, Pittsburgh, as opponents the Pats can maybe hold under 20 and thus give the Belichick pop gun offense a chance to win.
This season is 100% on Coach Coconuts (another thank you to Kevin Mannix) and his feeble attempt to put together a 2023 NFL offense with a gaggle of #3 receivers, late round draft picks, and UDFA.
Do the math and think critically, Bill Ballwashers....we are going on four seasons after Brady was jettisoned and the club stands at 25-28. I've been asking the same questions since it became obvious in 2019 that the offensive side of the ball passed by Bill the Coach. In game one of 2019, Bill the Coach's wide receivers who caught passes....a broken down Edleman, Josh Gordon, Philip Dorsett - those are the weapons Bill the GM gave the greatest quarterback of all time. In what universe is that acceptable?
I just want to know what do the In Bill We Trust people see with this 2023 team (and generally since Brady left) that makes them think the club is on the right track?
Do you people watch the same games I watch? Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, is hard for this offense. This was my lament back in 2019 (for which I was summarily banned from threads, etc., for daring to mention that the offense is garbage), and it's the same in 2023: you can't have an offense that is incapable of chunk plays and expect to win with any consistency - sure you might get a few Bill the Coach specials and win 23-17 when the other team turns it over 3 times and the Pats get some great field position and get a defensive or special teams score.
No one is ever open. These guys catch the ball 6 yards past the LOS, get tackled immediately, and maybe fall forward a yard or two - that's literally a big play for this Bill the Coach offense. I don't want to hear about the offensive line - who is to blame for the current offensive line? Last night, according to Phil Perry, they only had one "fill in" playing on the line last night...and they still effing sucked.
Kansas City only scored 17 (but they won on the road)....but they got chunk plays in the passing game....31, 54, 34. It currently takes the Bill the Coach's offense 6-8 plays to move 54 yards. OK, that's your super bowl champs...how about a crap team? Lets look at the lowly NY Giants, a club everyone took a dump on after week one...chunk plays of 55, 25, 29...How about Tennessee and their Tannehill led, run heavy offense???? Chunk plays of 70 and 49.
Unless the offense improves, the season is toast, finito, dunski. You can't win in 2023 with a long pass of 14 yards and averaging 18.5 ppg.

 

[Ian]

So, the excuse this year is the WRs. Got it.

Tua threaded the needle and made a great throw to Braxton Berrios. Accurate ball with power.

Mac tried the same and got picked off by Howard. A duck coming in for a landing.

I don't know what you're looking for. Tua certainly had better protection and a pretty clean pocket all night, with the Patriots having to limit the rush because they also have Hill and Waddle and didn't want to get beat down the field. Jones won a title throwing to that guy (Waddle) in college, and I'm sure if you add one or both to this group, things look different.

You're looking for Jones to play like Brady with an offensive line that has yet to have the same guys start two games together and wideouts that struggled to get much separation last night. I don't know what to tell you. Pretty sure any quarterback, with Brady being the lone exception, would have had a tough time to this point. He's a third-year QB. It is what it is. If they're not going to protect him, what we saw these first two weeks is likely going to continue. They need continuity up front and haven't had it yet.

 

[sb1]

A few similarities to the 5-11 2000 team. That team also couldn’t close. 10 of their 11 losses were by one score or less. Meh receivers. They also had putrid OL and run game and a pocket QB who is a sitting duck without protection. They obviously had an awesome foundation of young players in place on defense and we have a few nice young pieces today on that side.

I’d take the same result the next year

 

[Ian]

A few similarities to the 5-11 2000 team. That team also couldn’t close. 10 of their 11 losses were by one score or less. Meh receivers. They also had putrid OL and run game and a pocket QB who is a sitting duck without protection. They obviously had an awesome foundation of young players in place on defense and we have a few nice young pieces today on that side.

JuJu has been disappointing and Parker remains infuriating. One minute, he'll leap and make a terrific contested grab, and then you have last night where not only did he step out of bounds, he doesn't even get his arms up over his head to try and take that one away and make the grab, much less prevent the turnover. At the same time, I don't see the point of targeting him in that situation with that match-up, but that's the play they called.

But against a good team, it certainly feels like they're shy one player. That deep ball to Bourne was also a great throw, and he didn't get the other hand on it for some odd reason. He's their best guy right now, which doesn't bode well if it stays that way.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Another loss. Got outplayed in both games yet somehow they were still in it. Definitely see improvement from last season but they are what their record says. Btw, why is anyone surprised? Both opponents are obviously more talented and deserved to win both games.

At this point they are not good enough to beat top teams on a consistent basis but at least they are in the games, unlike last year when they go down a couple of scores it was just over, no chance. They still have a chance to steal games

Overall, I like how the defense played despite missing a couple of key secondary players. The offense obviously isn’t as good but it is better. Mac took some shots downfield and if his protection was better maybe they could stop the 5 ypa bs. He hasn’t been terrible, just needs a little more time. Getting the ball out quicker has been improving drastically so there is a positive going forward. Running game has regressed somehow.

Right now this team is in flux and it appears they can’t dominate until they land a true impact receiver and LT to solidify the offense. Problem is teams that usually get these types of players usually suck and get top picks in the draft to acquire them. The only top 10 pick they’ve had was #7 in the last 20 years was from San Francisco via trade which they traded back to draft Mayo.

Oh, they’ve had chances which we’ll be reminded of, Jefferson, Brown etc, a trade for Hopkins who probably wouldn’t of made much difference.

So who? You think Higgins is the answer come free agency? Or do they suck enough to grab one of the Ohio st wr’s in the draft? That will be fun leading up to that because it means we just scored a top 8 pick in the draft and we watched a terrible season. Not really, that sucks.

Who knows how this season will go but I was hoping for improvement and we got it. At least it does finally feel like a rebuilding year. Seems they got a winner with Gonzales this draft and Maybe we can scratch true lockdown corner off the list of positions they need to contend by seasons end?

 

[Ross12]

It does feel like both weeks were seriously impacted by very slow starts. Last week due to inexperienced rookie guards, this week due to veteran guards coming back from long absences due to injuries and then DB injuries. Hopefully, this week the guards are on the same page as everyone else and Brown is healthy. Although, I felt like Lowe was not a big problem, so I’m not as worried about LT as I thought I would be. Still, a healthy Brown can only help.

I know we have said it a million times on this board, but RT is still a problem and Onwenu is a good RT. They have both Mafi and Sow on the roster who have shown they can be adequate right guards. Why not move Onwenu to tackle and replace him with a rookie at guard? Do they think Anderson will improve, or Sow or Wheatley Jr will step up in the coming weeks and become quality right tackles?

 

[sb1]

JuJu has been disappointing and Parker remains infuriating. One minute, he'll leap and make a terrific contested grab, and then you have last night where not only did he step out of bounds, he doesn't even get his arms up over his head to try and take that one away and make the grab, much less prevent the turnover. At the same time, I don't see the point of targeting him in that situation with that match-up, but that's the play they called.

But against a good team, it certainly feels like they're shy one player. That deep ball to Bourne was also a great throw, and he didn't get the other hand on it for some odd reason. He's their best guy right now, which doesn't bode well if it stays that way.

I totally get trying to upgrade there in the YAC department from Meyers but *this* Juju isn't what we signed up for.

I'd like to think they did their due diligence on his knee. I think that's going to be a problem for his production.

 

[yukon cornelius]

Right.

I see a lot of talk of keeping BB the coach and give someone else the GM role in charge of building the roster. I really can’t see BB agreeing to that so it’s both roles or he walks/retires. What does Kraft do with that dilemma? I don’t think he’s that thrilled with what he’s seeing.

Like last week I feel exactly the same about Mac as I did before the game. Last night was another showcase of who he is. We already know he’s much more likely a QB who won’t lose many games for a team by himself and can win with the right team/system around him instead of a guy who can carry an offense and elevate his teammates to be better than they are. No shame in that, there are many QBs in the league who are the latter and very few of the former. But then it’s up to the GM that acknowledge that instead of imagining Brady is still here and build a roster for the latter type of QB. Many times the first round pick QBs don’t work out at all… ask Bills fans what they think of JP Losman and EJ Manuel.

The defense…now that was a disappointment even with health issues. Tua had all day to throw most of the time and imo the Miami OL isn’t that great. If a Mostert can get 6.7 YPC then yikes.

0-2 isn’t time to panic but 0-3 with a loss to Zach Wilson might be.

i read this, but in the 4th quarter last night mac had this team on his back.......one bad throw that i blame more on parker aside, mac piggybacked this group pretty well last night


not super concerned about the 6.7 or the time for tua......they game planned to force miami into running the ball, and taking the short throws......blitzes were few and far between, but were effective......i think the biggest issue with the defensive gameplan last night was injuries (and some lousy tackling, which is on the NFLPA imho, it's rampant league wide)

i still see this team at 3-3 headed into the bill game


then again, i'm almost 52.......i'm busy with the kids, i've had a childhood friend pass in the past few weeks, am about to lose a treasured work colleague of 23 years.....my fandom has changed.......i like watching a competitive game, i'm invested in the process itself and the entertainment value of the game; i'm not as emotionally invested in the do or die notion of having to win.....i want to see this team do well, of course, but........i