Game Day Thread 2018 Preseason G2: PHI @ NE

[RobertWeathers]

Execution is up to the players.

But what positions they are put in, and what they do, is up to the DC. And there was a marked difference in how they have been positioned by Flores.

Who was used differently?

 

[long distance]

I hope it is not that first down where they tried to setup a screen, Brady led him too far inside and Brown was already set up to block outside. That's the only (inbounds) reception I can remember and that was not on him the timing on that play was just totally off.

Edit: On rewatch Brady didn't lead him insight but the timing of blocks and the reception was off. Anyway juicy thing to discuss in rewatch thread.

Vid not there on timnog . but you know Pats WR has to get YAC there . and he looked like scared/confused chicken there for a while iirc

But in general he doesn't show decisiveness, confidence and doesn't show enough effort to go for YAC when catching through the middle with his back to the end zone ..

 

[RobertWeathers]

And as Ninko observed . he doesn't mix player's positions as much. We'll have to wait for first real game to see to what extent that will be true.

But having deep rotation at all front 7 positions certainly helps..

Which last year was jack squat

 

[RobertWeathers]

To be fair it is impossible to know how Patricia would call his defense if he had Clayborn, Rivers and a year-2 version of Wise. Not saying we won't be more aggressive but you can't just compare two different personnel groups and the calls that are being made.

But what definitely sounds to be happening if you listen to the player iviews is that the concepts are being simplified relative to Patricia to make players think less and play faster maybe at the expense of countering what the offense is doing perfectly. But this is an optimization problem anyway and needs to be balanced.

You might have the perfect play against each formation an opponent can come up with but you can't expect your players to keep all of those in their mind and work perfectly in sync. At the same time if your defense becomes too generic (i.e. play the same defense against everything) your players might be fast and know what to do at all times but will not be in ideal position to stop certain plays.

It would be like he did in 2016, 2015 and 2014 when they had the personnel

 

[Kontradiction]

Agreed. If you're looking for optimism based on this game, I think you can look at some of the new or younger players winning their matchups as a good sign that they CAN be a little more aggressive, but nothing was revealed today about the Pats overall defensive philosophy. I'm not even sure they will know what that is until October or so.

I think how "aggressive" or exotic this defense is allowed to be this season is going to be dependent upon the linebackers (specifically both health and ability). Last season, a lot was made about how the Pats only "like" to use two LBs, but I don't think that's the case at all. I saw that as more of a product of necessity since the depth was horrific and Hightower's injury hurt badly. It negatively affected coverage in the short areas which limited how exotic the Pats defense was allowed to be (which was ultimately why we saw a simplified version of the defense ran sometime after the Carolina game). If Bentley is the real deal, Hightower's health, and KVN's health hold up, it'll allow the defense more flexibility from a schematic standpoint and will allow BB/Flores free reign to utilize some of their more exotic concepts and schemes.

 

[luuked]

Vid not there on timnog . but you know Pats WR has to at least try to go for YAC there . and he looked like scared/confused chicken there for a while iirc

But in general he doesn't show decisiveness, confidence and doesn't show enough effort to go for YAC when catching through the middle with his back to the end zone ..

I am totally baffled how you come to this conclusion on that play. Don't see any of that only him getting screwed by the throw being a blink of an eye late and therefore Brown being ahead blocking to the outside and not on top of Dorsett where it would have been an easy TD. I mean should he just guess what happens behind him while he is waiting for the ball ?

 

[long distance]

 

[Kontradiction]

From what I've seen (the highlights), it looked like a rough game from Crossen last night. It looked like Foles targeted him continuously for big plays in the 2nd quarter.

 

[maineman209]

Don't have to compare two different groups to see that a different style of defense is being employed.

For example, Flores has his players play a lot closer to the line than Patricia does (part of this "aggressiveness"). That's one of the difference in their styles which has nothing to do with personnel or "schemes."

I'm not so sure about that, entirely.

It was crystal clear from the get-go that the DL personnel MP had to work with in 2017 were abysmal against the run, even when the style and scheme were cautious/conservative. Being more aggressive seems like it would only have made that worse, especially with the state of the Line-backer group.

So, I agree with the notion that the upgraded front-six personnel Flores has to work with in 2018 allows him more leeway to be aggressive. That said, I don't think it's merely the one thing or the other - the difference in personnel v. the difference in coaching/play-calling style aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Also, I wouldn't project the "Flores defense" to be quite as aggressive when the real games start as it was last night. As Chatham and others have pointed out, BB's defensive philosophy has been to play contain/bend-don't-break when the ball is still inside the opponent's 45-yd-line, and then become more aggressive when (if) the opposing offense approaches the red zone - manage what the offense is trying to do, avoid chunk plays, pick your spots to let the dogs out - especially in the early parts of games. I really don't think that's going to change much under Flores. OTOH, I also think that aggressive calls are going to be far more effective when they're made, mostly due to personnel changes (and player development).

Last night's more aggressive style was, I think, a matter of letting the dogs out to blow off some steam and to see how they work together (damn relentless, snarling wolfpack it seemed to me) - and also to see how well the guys behind them would be able to clean up (very well, I thought - and Crossen was excellent in that regard, especially in edge-contain).

BTW - on re-watch, I want to focus on #58 (Davis). My real-time impression was that he's quietly very good and definitely looks like he belongs in the edge rotation on the 53 for both his run-D and pressure contributions.

 

[long distance]

I am totally baffled how you come to this conclusion on that play. Don't see any of that only him getting screwed by the throw being a blink of an eye late and therefore Brown being ahead blocking to the outside and not on top of Dorsett where it would have been an easy TD. I mean should he just guess what happens behind him while he is waiting for the ball ?

You should look at it again (if we talk about the same play 1Q-11:35). He has 5 yd cushion upon catching the ball on a single coverage with a mountain of T.Brown going to block the outside with a clear running lane for TD . instead he goes inside (Brady is not leading him there imo - his throw is neutral and allows immediate outside run though not leading there) gets indecisive and is stopped short. If Jules or White are there its a clear TD no matter what you think of TB throw . and with decisive less agile WR its a 5yds more inside id guess..

 

[luuked]

From what I've seen (the highlights), it looked like a rough game from Crossen last night. It looked like Foles targeted him continuously for big plays in the 2nd quarter.

He didn't play as bad as the highlights make it look. The DPIs stand out obviously but I thought for what he is at this point of his career he looked somewhat solid. Obviously graded against a curve of a 7th round pick.

 

[luuked]

You should look at it again (if we talk about the same play 1Q-11:35). He has 5 yd cushion upon catching the ball on a single coverage with a mountain of T.Brown going to block the outside with a clear running lane for TD . instead he goes inside (Brady is not leading him there imo - his throw is neutral and allows immediate outside run though not leading there) gets indecisive and is stopped short. If Jules or White are there its a clear TD no matter what you think of TB throw . and with decisive less agile WR its a 5yds more inside id guess..

Posted a gif in the rewatch thread. Lets take it there.

 

[Sicilian]

I think how "aggressive" or exotic this defense is allowed to be this season is going to be dependent upon the linebackers (specifically both health and ability). Last season, a lot was made about how the Pats only "like" to use two LBs, but I don't think that's the case at all. I saw that as more of a product of necessity since the depth was horrific and Hightower's injury hurt badly. It negatively affected coverage in the short areas which limited how exotic the Pats defense was allowed to be (which was ultimately why we saw a simplified version of the defense ran sometime after the Carolina game). If Bentley is the real deal, Hightower's health, and KVN's health hold up, it'll allow the defense more flexibility from a schematic standpoint and will allow BB/Flores free reign to utilize some of their more exotic concepts and schemes.

I think that's kind of what I was trying to say as well. That in general, when you can trust certain guys to win their matchups, it lets you be more aggressive in play calling because you trust those guys are going to produce where expected.

An example would be blitzing a LB. I'm guessing we're more likely to be aggressive blitzing someone like Hightower, because they trust he'll get there and disrupt more often than not. If you can't depend on the LB getting there on a blitz consistently, all you're really doing is taking someone out of coverage.

I think your point about linebacker depth is doubly true in this specific scenario, because not only do you have to trust the guy you're blitzing, but also the other linebackers to cover more ground behind him.

 

[Kontradiction]

If Wynn's season is truly over, it really sucks. This would be the third year in a row now where the Pats would essentially get zero use out of their top overall pick in the draft.

 

[maineman209]

I have given up on Wiltz to be honest. Same with Travis after this game. Not really worth to mention them anymore. They are developmental projects at best.

I'd say, at best, scout-team guys for the Psquad for as long as they're eligible.

 

[RobertWeathers]

He didn't play as bad as the highlights make it look. The DPIs stand out obviously but I thought for what he is at this point of his career he looked somewhat solid. Obviously graded against a curve of a 7th round pick.

Hes not bashful in run support or tackling in general. That is for certain.

 

[Snooky97]

Say if we were going to trade for a WR who are we going to be looking at?

 

[Kontradiction]

Say if we were going to trade for a WR who are we going to be looking at?

I highly doubt a trade is coming. They'll probably monitor the scrap heap for pick-ups. Dorsett, to me, doesn't look any different from the bust that he's been since coming in to the league. It's clear what they're trying to do with Patterson (get the ball in his hands in space and let him operate) but he's a WR3/4 at best. Britt can't get on the field and neither McCarron nor Berrios look overly promising. So they'll one, but I highly doubt it'll be through a trade. They'll probably look at cast-offs that have either played in this offense before or play in similar offenses (such as Houston).

 

[maineman209]

You should look at it again (if we talk about the same play 1Q-11:35). He has 5 yd cushion upon catching the ball on a single coverage with a mountain of T.Brown going to block the outside with a clear running lane for TD . instead he goes inside (Brady is not leading him there imo - his throw is neutral and allows immediate outside run though not leading there) gets indecisive and is stopped short. If Jules or White are there its a clear TD no matter what you think of TB throw . and with decisive less agile WR its a 5yds more inside id guess..

I suppose it's possible that Brown got the block wrong, but still, Dorsett's indecisiveness in the face of the unexpected is what killed the play.

 

[goheels22002]

The board wants him drawn & quartered, disemboweled and beheaded.

There are no second chances.

This place is ruthless

Just traded would be fine.