2017-18 LB Group evolution

[IllegalContact]

At this point, Williamson is likely to cost double (or even triple) what Bradham would, and the Pats simply wouldn't be able to afford him regardless.

The Titans have almost $50M in cap space, so I'm doubtful they let him walk.

Bradham may be "only" Van Noy level, but that's still a significant upgrade over what the Pats were able to field at LB this past season. I'd think of it as Bradham replacing Harris.

Meh......he sucked in Buffalo

 

[Tony2046]

Actually, I didn't realize that, and I'm curious as to what you're seeing (in terms of both recent Pats personnel changes and general NFL offensive changes) that leads you to that hypothesis.

Sure. I'll break down my thoughts in bullet points.

1. It's a complimentary game.
- The Patriot's offense is elite. The defense doesn't need to be although it has the potential to be very good this season.

2. When I say 3-4 or 3 - anything it means the following:
- You have a big bodied NT that can command double teams. (I know that is hard to find) (I hope VV can fill this role on a rotational basis but still need that main guy AND I'd be willing to spend spend a lot for that guy.) (Poe is interesting but may be too expensive even for me) (If Vita Vea dropped within range I'd be tempted to move up for him but I'll leave that for the draftniks to discuss)
- You have DT's that can maintain 2 gap discipline. (The Pats have Brown, VV, etc..)
- You have two intelligent solid LB's that can plug running lanes. (The Pats have Hightower and KVN)

2a. If you have the NT and DT's who can 2 gap and control the LOS it allows you to become much more flexible in a situational sense:
(I separated this point because this involves personnel needs)
- (3-4) Need a solid LB/DE with speed. Can Rivers handle this role? Rivers, T.Flowers, KVN, Hightower.
- (3-3) Gilmore, Rowe, Chung, Harmon and McCourty are a solid group.
- (3-2) Need a DB. (Patriots may already have him on the roster)

3. If you have the NT and DT's who can control the LOS the 4-3 becomes a whole different animal.
- If you're running a 4-3 because you lack the NT or power to control the LOS it's out of necessity rather than schematically.
- If you have the personnel to effectively run a 3-4 you have so much more flexibility at the LOS. 4-3, 5-2 etc.. Not the same vice versa.
- If you have DT's that can two gap you have more ways to create pressure imo. OR I'd rather the opposing teams offensive line guess where the pressure is coming from when facing 3-4 personnel rather than more of a man vs man situation when facing a possibly slower 4-3 personnel. (I hope that makes sense)

It does have it's weaknesses but it's by far the most flexible which includes the ability to run the hybrid defensive fronts. I think that also gives you the best ability to match up or game plan for the various offenses the Patriots face on a game to game basis.

Lastly, when I say I would approach the defensive personnel differently if the Pats had a rookie QB I mean that I would invest more cap space positionally on the defensive side but would still want to use the 3-4 base.

Those are my thoughts.

 

[maineman209]

Sure. I'll break down my thoughts in bullet points.

1. It's a complimentary game.
- The Patriot's offense is elite. The defense doesn't need to be although it has the potential to be very good this season.

2. When I say 3-4 or 3 - anything it means the following:
- You have a big bodied NT that can command double teams. (I know that is hard to find) (I hope VV can fill this role on a rotational basis but still need that main guy AND I'd be willing to spend spend a lot for that guy.) (Poe is interesting but may be too expensive even for me) (If Vita Vea dropped within range I'd be tempted to move up for him but I'll leave that for the draftniks to discuss)
- You have DT's that can maintain 2 gap discipline. (The Pats have Brown, VV, etc..)
- You have two intelligent solid LB's that can plug running lanes. (The Pats have Hightower and KVN)

2a. If you have the NT and DT's who can 2 gap and control the LOS it allows you to become much more flexible in a situational sense:
(I separated this point because this involves personnel needs)
- (3-4) Need a solid LB/DE with speed. Can Rivers handle this role? Rivers, T.Flowers, KVN, Hightower.
- (3-3) Gilmore, Rowe, Chung, Harmon and McCourty are a solid group.
- (3-2) Need a DB. (Patriots may already have him on the roster)

3. If you have the NT and DT's who can control the LOS the 4-3 becomes a whole different animal.
- If you're running a 4-3 because you lack the NT or power to control the LOS it's out of necessity rather than schematically.
- If you have the personnel to effectively run a 3-4 you have so much more flexibility at the LOS. 4-3, 5-2 etc.. Not the same vice versa.
- If you have DT's that can two gap you have more ways to create pressure imo. OR I'd rather the opposing teams offensive line guess where the pressure is coming from when facing 3-4 personnel rather than more of a man vs man situation when facing a possibly slower 4-3 personnel. (I hope that makes sense)

It does have it's weaknesses but it's by far the most flexible which includes the ability to run the hybrid defensive fronts. I think that also gives you the best ability to match up or game plan for the various offenses the Patriots face on a game to game basis.

Lastly, when I say I would approach the defensive personnel differently if the Pats had a rookie QB I mean that I would invest more cap space positionally on the defensive side but would still want to use the 3-4 base.

Those are my thoughts.

Thanks!

Very thoughtful post (no surprise).

 

[Tony2046]

So, you would change our defensive scheme and depend on a rookie NT and on Rivers on the edge?

Actually I think we changed our defensive scheme because we don't have an NT. When we had Wilfork and the pre 2017 Branch we were running out of a 3-4 base. That doesn't mean we saw 3-4 rather that we had the personnel with the skill sets to run a 3-4. I hope that makes sense.

"Rivers on the edge". No not exactly. I see or hope Rivers can fill the Ninkovich role. I agree with @captain stone and others that it may take him awhile to develop. Anyways more of a LB/DE guy rather than a pure DE. I also agree that's a lot to ask of a rookie.

 

[maineman209]

He is an A-hole, and that brings disruption and negativity to the team: allegedly rude to everyone in the locker room, not a leader willing to “coach up” the young guys. He is not the type that will accept a “role” on the team.

Directly contradicts everything that any Pats player has said about Harrison since he joined the team.

But I'm sure you know him better than they do.

 

[maineman209]

Actually I think we changed our defensive scheme because we don't have an NT. When we had Wilfork and the pre 2017 Branch we were running out of a 3-4 base. That doesn't mean we saw 3-4 rather that we had the personnel with the skill sets to run a 3-4. I hope that makes sense.

"Rivers on the edge". No not exactly. I see or hope Rivers can fill the Ninkovich role. I agree with @captain stone and others that it may take him awhile to develop. Anyways more of a LB/DE guy rather than a pure DE. I also agree that's a lot to ask of a rookie.

Actually, I'll disagree a little bit with the part about the changes to the defensive scheme.

The (deliberate) transition to the current, more flexible, hybrid 4-3/3-4 scheme, that often integrates both 1-gap and 2-gap principles in the same front, began in 2010, and Wilfork was with the team through 2014, and was integral to that transition, as was Nink. By 2011, it was already half-and-half 4-3/3-4.

OTOH, I agree that not having a bigger, 2-gap-capable, run-stuffer alongside Brown on the interior in 2017, did limit the use and effectiveness of the 3-4 part of the hybrid mix for this past season. Valentine (6035/330+) was on IR and Branch was ineffective (he's had issues maintaining his conditioning throughout his career and, at age 32, he apparently just couldn't get it back over the offseason and Camp this time). If either of those two guys had been healthy this season, NT might not have seemed like such a major concern.

Since it's pretty certain that Branch will be released (soon), adding another NT-type seems like a good idea, regardless. If Valentine's health is 100%, and he can resume his development track from where it was toward the end of 2016 (only the coaches and personnel guys will know), then maybe a high pick or notable FA isn't really necessary. Otherwise ... ?

Anyway, even with the (unlikely) addition of Vea to the roster, I don't foresee a major shift from 4-man fronts to mostly 3-man fronts, just that there would be more balance and flexibility restored (which, in turn, might make the LB group look a whole lot better than they did this past season).

 

[TheFlyingWedge]

Directly contradicts everything that any Pats player has said about Harrison since he joined the team.

But I'm sure you know him better than they do.

When is the last time any Patriots player has spoken negatively about another player? Not too often, if ever.

 

[primetime]

So, Harrison gets beat on a couple plays in one game against arguably the best OL in the NFL, but all the other plays he made in his other three games setting the edge and making tackles don't count?

Sure, it was THE SUPERBOWL!!111, but it was still only one damn game.

It wasn't that he got beat, it was how he got beat. He rushed upfield and got sealed out of the play. If he had been beaten one-on-one by superior technique, that would be one thing. But here the offensive lineman just let him beat himself. Maybe with a full offseason you can train that out of him, or maybe he's just not suited to be anything but a situational pass rusher at age 40.

 

[TheFlyingWedge]

I sincerely hope, for your sake, that you're not so unhinged as to think an Instagram picture of a legal weapon is reason to get rid of a player.

Maybe you think its ok to post a pic of his AK47 on Instagram during the playoffs but I'm pretty sure Belichick doesn't like the distraction, or any distraction for that matter.

 

[Tony2046]

Actually, I'll disagree a little bit with the part about the changes to the defensive scheme.

The (deliberate) transition to the current, more flexible, hybrid 4-3/3-4 scheme, that often integrates both 1-gap and 2-gap principles in the same front, began in 2010, and Wilfork was with the team through 2014, and was integral to that transition, as was Nink. By 2011, it was already half-and-half 4-3/3-4.

OTOH, I agree that not having a bigger, 2-gap-capable, run-stuffer alongside Brown on the interior in 2017, did limit the use and effectiveness of the 3-4 part of the hybrid mix for this past season. Valentine (6035/330+) was on IR and Branch was ineffective (he's had issues maintaining his conditioning throughout his career and, at age 32, he apparently just couldn't get it back over the offseason and Camp this time). If either of those two guys had been healthy this season, NT might not have seemed like such a major concern.

Since it's pretty certain that Branch will be released (soon), adding another NT-type seems like a good idea, regardless. If Valentine's health is 100%, and he can resume his development track from where it was toward the end of 2016 (only the coaches and personnel guys will know), then maybe a high pick or notable FA isn't really necessary. Otherwise ... ?

Anyway, even with the (unlikely) addition of Vea to the roster, I don't foresee a major shift from 4-man fronts to mostly 3-man fronts, just that there would be more balance and flexibility restored (which, in turn, might make the LB group look a whole lot better than they did this past season).

To be clear I'm not advocating for any kind of fronts. Just personnel. I don't care if they're in a 4-3 or 3-4 but do care if they do not have the personnel to run an effective 3-4. I think NT is by far their biggest need on defense in a complimentary sense which means that if only one position was improved I would want it to be the NT.

I'm not sure if 2010 is accurate and would like to discuss that more because I was always under the impression that BB favored the 3-4 philosophy. Again not that he didn't run 4 man fronts but that he favored 3-4 personnel from a skill set stand point. But maybe I'm missing something.

I looked for one of the articles but instead ran into this.

Belichick talks 4-3, 3-4 defense (It's Mike Reiss)

Bill Belichick: "Honestly, I think that's something that is a media fabrication. There are a lot of different alignments out there. You see 4-3 teams use odd spacing. You see 3-4 teams use even spacing. You have 11 players, you can put them in various positions. Whether you want to put it on the pre-game depth chart as one thing or another, I think is a little bit overrated.

"You play different fronts, you play different spacing, and you teach the techniques of your defense. That is what consistent, techniques that are taught in different defensive systems, whether those teams go from three-man line to a four-man line, or a four-man line to an odd spacing line, or overs to unders, or unders to overs, or over-wides, whatever you want to call it. They will continue to play the same fundamental techniques as they've been teaching for the entire year, for the most part. I think that's what teaching defensive fundamental football is about. It's about fundamentals. Wherever you put them, you've got to people other people in complementary places, however you decide to do that.

"It's pretty straight-forward really ... It's more the teaching, techniques and fundamentals you teach your defensive players, more than it is the 4-3, 3-4 lineup that is so important to put on the flip card."

Good discussion. Thanks

 

[TheFlyingWedge]

That info was debunked with a photo of Harrison teaching the young guys things in practice.

It was a lie.

Everything that Bud DuPree said about him was a lie?

Bud Dupree: James Harrison 'spit in Coach Tomlin and Mr. Rooney's face'

I would take this with a grain of salt if it came from media sources, but these are his words from his mouth in a recorded interview.

"When someone really doesn't want to share wisdom with you or share knowledge with you because they feel like you're gonna take their shine or take their limelight, that's how we feel," DuPree said. "We tried to hold back as much as we could because we didn't wanna jeopardize making him look bad."

 

[maineman209]

When is the last time any Patriots player has spoken negatively about another player? Not too often, if ever.

Well! That certainly proves all of your claims!

 

[maineman209]

It wasn't that he got beat, it was how he got beat. He rushed upfield and got sealed out of the play. If he had been beaten one-on-one by superior technique, that would be one thing. But here the offensive lineman just let him beat himself. Maybe with a full offseason you can train that out of him, or maybe he's just not suited to be anything but a situational pass rusher at age 40.

Or, maybe he just got "beaten" by a good fake. He wouldn't have been the only one who was that game.

 

[maineman209]

Everything that Bud DuPree said about him was a lie?

Bud Dupree: James Harrison 'spit in Coach Tomlin and Mr. Rooney's face'

I would take this with a grain of salt if it came from media sources, but these are his words from his mouth in a recorded interview.

"When someone really doesn't want to share wisdom with you or share knowledge with you because they feel like you're gonna take their shine or take their limelight, that's how we feel," DuPree said. "We tried to hold back as much as we could because we didn't wanna jeopardize making him look bad."

Tell ya what. If you want to debate James Harrison's character, go start your own f**king thread and stop junking up this one.

I'm done with this topic. One more "Harrison's character" comment out of you in this thread and I'm f**king done with you, too.

 

[captain stone]

He was fine as a pure pass rusher but teams targeted and ran him over in the run game. The Blount touchdown in the Super Bowl was entirely his fault. He got completely swallowed up and gave up the edge and the rest was history.

He's not visible in this screenshot because it's grainy, but he's behind the lineman and Malcom Brown is actually outside of him as Blount heads towards the edge.

To be fair to Harrison, he was double-teamed by Celek & Vaitai at the start of the play before Celek peed-off to block Chung, whom he handled without any help.

And while I was watching the replay, I noticed that Elandon Roberts completely over-ran the pursuit without really being blocked by anyone. What an utterly clueless, useless turd of a football player he is.

To sum up my take then: I blame Harrison for the TD less than I blame Chung & (naturally) Roberts.

 

[Deus Irae]

Maybe you think its ok to post a pic of his AK47 on Instagram during the playoffs but I'm pretty sure Belichick doesn't like the distraction, or any distraction for that matter.

So you really are that unhinged, then? If so, get off the internet, permanently, and get some psychiatric care.

 

[mgteich]

I believe that we have to spend some capital on CB.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. If you're talking about getting the band back together as "spending money", then sure, but keeping your own players in some areas doesn't mean you've solved the problems in others. If you're talking about spending beyond Solder, Lewis, and Burkhead, then no.

Unlike OT and RB, even if the LB corps is 100%, it's not good enough, and needs to be addressed. As for corner, Butler's absence will obviously leave a hole that will need to be filled.

 

[primetime]

To be fair to Harrison, he was double-teamed by Celek & Vaitai at the start of the play before Celek peed-off to block Chung, whom he handled without any help.

And while I was watching the replay, I noticed that Elandon Roberts completely over-ran the pursuit without really being blocked by anyone. What an utterly clueless, useless turd of a football player he is.

To sum up my take then: I blame Harrison for the TD less than I blame Chung & (naturally) Roberts.

Roberts is worse than useless, agreed. How's this: don't really want Harrison nor Roberts on the team next season. Inevitably, though, one or both are likely to be here.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Everything that Bud DuPree said about him was a lie?

Bud Dupree: James Harrison 'spit in Coach Tomlin and Mr. Rooney's face'

I would take this with a grain of salt if it came from media sources, but these are his words from his mouth in a recorded interview.

"When someone really doesn't want to share wisdom with you or share knowledge with you because they feel like you're gonna take their shine or take their limelight, that's how we feel," DuPree said. "We tried to hold back as much as we could because we didn't wanna jeopardize making him look bad."

No offense, but Bud Dupree also thinks he's good and he's a draft bust in line with Jarvis Jones and whatever other losers they've brought through there in recent years at LB, where Pittsburgh can't admit their draft picks just aren't very good.

TJ Watt is next in line. They guy thinks a run game to defend, doesn't exist. he has no idea what a 3-4 OLB position means and just runs upfield on every down. This means he has low football IQ and BB never would have drafted him.

What this means is Bud Dupree is a really bad source for you.

I am sure Harrison was annoyed he was benched for an inferior player, but Pitt has not been known to be making very good front office decisions in recent years, as they all pat one another on their backs telling one another how great they are.

When Colbert loses all of his leverage and possibly his job when he caves to Leveon Bell, maybe you'll see what I am talking about here.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Roberts is worse than useless, agreed. How's this: don't really want Harrison nor Roberts on the team next season. Inevitably, though, one or both are likely to be here.

Roberts is very cheap and will be a camp body. Hopefully, they can get to terms with Harrison, yes. He may be even better with a full camp in front of him.

But, doesn't hurt to have Roberts take reps in camp before being cut for a better player they can hopefully grab in this draft.