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2017-18 LB Group evolution


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He is 29 next year. You want some trendy fa with a ring on his finger looking for the highest dollar, coming in here? That is what crappy teams do.

Moving forward, flowers is the better fa investment for numerous reasons.
If it were an EXPENSIVE trendy FA with a ring on his finger you’d have a point. However, no team (especially NE) is paying top dollar for Nigel Bradham lol. He’ll be a $2.5-$5.5 million dollar per year investment wherever he goes, unless some stupid front office does the typical annual S.S.S (stupid signing of the season). Yes, I’d love a young productive player, but it seems BB likes to bring in moderately priced vets who have experience. Remember, the CBA made it so that younger players (in general) take longer to develop due to less practice time, OTAs, etc... Vets can come in, learn NE’s system & go DO THEIR JOB. Personally, I’m not even that big on Bradham, I just understand pats fans interest due to the lack of talent/depth we have at that respective position. I’d rather have LB Jordan Hicks. He’s younger, coming off a season ending injury, and could be cheaper than expected. He’s also a better overall player than Bradham IMO.
 
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I view Rivers as a Ninko replacement possibility but that's some tough shoes to fill. He does have the athleticism for it but am not sure if he has the mind or instincts for it. I don't think we'll know if he does or not for awhile either...
I am less concerned about Rivers' mind or instincts than I am about his stoutness.
Ninkovich was a 6'2/260 Bulldog of a DE/OLB; Rivers is a 6'4/250 Saluki of an OLB/possibly-maybe-DE. And as PFK mentioned, it would be unfair to Rivers to expect anything more from him than what would reasonably be expected of a rookie from a 1AA college in his first year of pro ball, and recovering from ACL surgery. IOW, not much. If he can be considered as a replacement for anybody, then consider him as McClellin's replacement, the sooner the better.
 
A couple of more BTWs before sleepy-time:

Apologies for forgetting the poster(s) who suggested him, but (soon-to-be-former?) Denver LB Corey Nelson could be an intriguing - and possibly inexpensive - name to remember as Marquis Flowers' backup/replacement;

And over in the Draft forum, Hammer of Thor has started an excellent thread about off-season machinations the FO may undertake, including those at LB. Definitely worth reading over some Barry's tea & brown bread.
 
I am less concerned about Rivers' mind or instincts than I am about his stoutness.
Ninkovich was a 6'2/260 Bulldog of a DE/OLB; Rivers is a 6'4/250 Saluki of an OLB/possibly-maybe-DE. And as PFK mentioned, it would be unfair to Rivers to expect anything more from him than what would reasonably be expected of a rookie from a 1AA college in his first year of pro ball, and recovering from ACL surgery. IOW, not much. If he can be considered as a replacement for anybody, then consider him as McClellin's replacement, the sooner the better.

Good points and you're probably closer to the reality than I am.
 
The LB corps needs an overhaul, not a tweak. But, with the cap being what it is, and the need at a couple of other critical spots, we'll probably see some form of patchwork again.
One FA, a couple draft picks and maybe some UDFA's is what I think they'll do. I think you're on the money.
 
Personally, I’m not even that big on Bradham, I just understand pats fans interest due to the lack of talent/depth we have at that respective position. I’d rather have LB Jordan Hicks. He’s younger, coming off a season ending injury, and could be cheaper than expected. He’s also a better overall player than Bradham IMO.

Hicks is also, you know, under contract to the Eagles through the end of next season.

Avery Williamson is the only stud linebacker in free agency for whom I'd be willing to pony up. Otherwise you have Van Noy-level replacement players who don't do much other than tweak what's already there. Thankfully, it's a good draft for off-ball linebackers. Hightower's health can't be counted upon, unfortunately, but getting him back will make a difference until he inevitably goes on IR again.
 
That's the beauty of the 3-4. Rivers/Trey Flowers would be the OLB/DE's. A very versatile personnel grouping that can show various fronts. 4-3, 3-4 and even 5-2. But all of that requires a dominating NT.

Ninko had Wilfork and Sheard had Branch (the good version).
People really need to understand that having a dominant/disruptive DL creates a trickle down effect of greatness and impacts every level of your D. I’m hopeful B.B. throws as much talent at the DT/NT/DE position this offseason as he can. Along with a few guys getting another year of experience, I’m feeling pretty optimistic about this line. If given the choice to focus and throw money at one position on D, my choice is gonna be that interior D-Line.
 
Lee and Rivers are edge guys. More Ninko, Sheard.

Hightower plays everywhere.

Van Noy and Flowers are good pieces. I’d still like to see an upgrade or 2 in this position group though. There’s some talent in this draft to do it.

Hard to know what type of player either Lee or Rivers "are", since they've played so few NFL defensive snaps, much less what they might become, what direction their development might take.

Anyway, there's more than enough role/assignment overlap between the edge positions in the Pats' scheme - OLB and DE - that it often complicates figuring out how the LB mix needs to, or is likely to, work itself out.
 
As you know I'm thinking 3-4 all the way this season ...

Actually, I didn't realize that, and I'm curious as to what you're seeing (in terms of both recent Pats personnel changes and general NFL offensive changes) that leads you to that hypothesis.
 
You sound silly. Leave your emotions out of it. Check the facts. No one said he was a great player, but he’s a solid vet that can contribute. Plus, BB & staff are familiar with him since he’s been a division rival in the past. Since when is 28 old??? I’m 28 lol.

Nigel Bradham

Well, Bradham turns 29 in week-1. That isn't "old", but it may be old enough to limit the length and dollars of his next contract offers more than if he was just turning 27.
 
Interesting topic.

I would start my opinion with the observation that the NFL is continuing to marginalize the LB position much like it has done at the FB position for the last 20 years. We already have a heavy investment in one LB and that is because at 270 he not only can be a beast run stopper, he can play outside at OLB and/or DE as well. That being said, any FA investments at that position should be kept at a minimum.

MFlowers is a very interesting decision. He did literally NOTHING on the regular defense for the first 4 years of his career before he was thrust into the DE here and did reasonably well. No question he has the speed everyone is clamoring for in this thread. The question is whether Flowers is a late bloomer who is ready to .explode as a defensive stalwart, or was he a product of careful manipulation from the coaching staff which covered the flaws that made him a career STer before he got here.

I think BB knows the answer to that question and we will find out what HE thinks when FA occurs and how hard he goes after him. I'm sure Patricia will be a suitor as well. In the meantime, we can speculate the hell out it. ;) BTW- I'm with those who want to keep him.

Hightower and KVN are two quality LB's who have shown a ton of flexibility. In an age where nickel and dime defenses are the norm, having these 2 guys as your starting point is a comforting fact.

I agree that Rivers is a more likely going to be an OLB more than a DE would normally get me excited. He looked like an explosive athlete who could be something in 3 or 4 years before he was hurt. Common wisdom says that it really takes 2 years to get back to 100% after an ACL, and that goes double for a speed and explosion athlete. So for 2018, I would have very low expectations for Rivers. Play ST's get some reps on situational D's and get valuable experience playing at this level. Remember he was in a 1AA program to start with, so while he got the mental experience last year, he still hasn't gotten actual football reps.

Roberts took on a heavy load last season, and while he didn't light up the league by any means, he didn't suck either. He was tasked as being the primary run stopper on early downs and stopping the run was NOT an issue during the 2nd half of the season He WILL have to improve if he wants to stay in NE past his rookie contract and it would help he was more productive on ST's. Right now he's a decent piece to the puzzle, who, if he improves could be more than that.

McClellan and Harris are goners and will add more cap room when they are gone (about $6MM IIRC) I suggest we spend that money on other positions

.As for the draft. I'd keep looking for those really fast LB/SS types. I'm going to be looking closely at the one-handed kid who is looking to run in the 4.4 range. I think he could be had at the bottom end of the draft and might add the kind of speed we want.

As for the lack of hand, I would remind people that there was a time where people played with a forearm shiver rather than hand placement techniques (including myself) Sure picks might be an issue, but how many do any LB's get now? If you are looking at speed with player we actually have a shot at getting he's the one. (even if I can't remember his name. ;) )

I think M. Flowers addressed his prior lack of usage on defense (72 total snaps) directly in a (December?) interview asking him to compare his Pats experience with his experiences during 2 seasons in Cinci. He mentioned that, a few days after joining the Pats, he ran into Matt Patricia in the hallway. Patricia introduced himself and talked briefly to Flowers about how the coaches viewed his skill set and what roles they thought he might be able to fill on the defense.

Flowers told the interviewer that he was stunned by the encounter. He said that was the first time in his NFL career that he'd ever had any kind of conversation with his DC. He went on to praise the Pats organization as being a place where everybody got a chance to demonstrate everything they could do, that players weren't arbitrarily pigeonholed.

Anyway, it seemed to me that his role with the Pats defense this season was more OLB-ish than DE. That could change, of course, as he develops through his first off-season and Camp with the Pats (if he's re-signed).

In terms of future (nominal) position/role, Rivers (zero NFL snaps) and Eric Lee (zero NFL snaps before he got to the Pats in week-12) are still unknowns at this point. Lee's first 281 defensive snaps in the NFL appeared to be split between DE and OLB fairly evenly.

I agree about Roberts. I think people tend to forget he was only an NFL sophomore this past season. Due to the lack of healthy bodies at LB, his snap count literally doubled to 558 (53%) this season, and he appeared to be required to play a much broader repertoire of roles. He was certainly still making mistakes, though fewer on a per-snap basis, and he really did make more good, solid plays (for people who were objective enough to notice them). Anyway, Roberts now has a metric crap-tonne of experience to build on for his third season. Hopefully, in 2018, there will be more healthy and capable bodies available at LB that Roberts and his coaches will be able to narrow his role a bit in order to optimize his strengths and avoid exposing his vulnerabilities.
 
If it were an EXPENSIVE trendy FA with a ring on his finger you’d have a point. However, no team (especially NE) is paying top dollar for Nigel Bradham lol. He’ll be a $2.5-$5.5 million dollar per year investment wherever he goes, unless some stupid front office does the typical annual S.S.S (stupid signing of the season). Yes, I’d love a young productive player, but it seems BB likes to bring in moderately priced vets who have experience. Remember, the CBA made it so that younger players (in general) take longer to develop due to less practice time, OTAs, etc... Vets can come in, learn NE’s system & go DO THEIR JOB. Personally, I’m not even that big on Bradham, I just understand pats fans interest due to the lack of talent/depth we have at that respective position. I’d rather have LB Jordan Hicks. He’s younger, coming off a season ending injury, and could be cheaper than expected. He’s also a better overall player than Bradham IMO.

Agree that Bradham is more likely to be affordable for the Pats than not.

Hicks is an interesting proposition. He seems to present more upside, but also more risk. He'd probably cost less for 2018 than Bradham ($1.9M versus, say, $3M), but he'd also cost some draft capital to obtain, since he's still under contract to the Eagles.

BTW - Great point about guys with NFL experience having more value since the developmental rate of rookies has effectively been reduced by the CBA.
 
I am less concerned about Rivers' mind or instincts than I am about his stoutness.
Ninkovich was a 6'2/260 Bulldog of a DE/OLB; Rivers is a 6'4/250 Saluki of an OLB/possibly-maybe-DE. And as PFK mentioned, it would be unfair to Rivers to expect anything more from him than what would reasonably be expected of a rookie from a 1AA college in his first year of pro ball, and recovering from ACL surgery. IOW, not much. If he can be considered as a replacement for anybody, then consider him as McClellin's replacement, the sooner the better.

Here's hoping that Rivers has been living in the film room and weight room during his redshirt season.
 
That's the beauty of the 3-4. Rivers/Trey Flowers would be the OLB/DE's. A very versatile personnel grouping that can show various fronts. 4-3, 3-4 and even 5-2. But all of that requires a dominating NT.

Ninko had Wilfork and Sheard had Branch (the good version).

So, you would change our defensive scheme and depend on a rookie NT and on Rivers on the edge?
 
starters - Hightower, Van Noy
run stopping backup - Roberts
additional - ?

We need someone who can start if needed in addition to a safety to back up Chung.

Interesting topic.

I would start my opinion with the observation that the NFL is continuing to marginalize the LB position much like it has done at the FB position for the last 20 years. We already have a heavy investment in one LB and that is because at 270 he not only can be a beast run stopper, he can play outside at OLB and/or DE as well. That being said, any FA investments at that position should be kept at a minimum.

MFlowers is a very interesting decision. He did literally NOTHING on the regular defense for the first 4 years of his career before he was thrust into the DE here and did reasonably well. No question he has the speed everyone is clamoring for in this thread. The question is whether Flowers is a late bloomer who is ready to .explode as a defensive stalwart, or was he a product of careful manipulation from the coaching staff which covered the flaws that made him a career STer before he got here.

I think BB knows the answer to that question and we will find out what HE thinks when FA occurs and how hard he goes after him. I'm sure Patricia will be a suitor as well. In the meantime, we can speculate the hell out it. ;) BTW- I'm with those who want to keep him.

Hightower and KVN are two quality LB's who have shown a ton of flexibility. In an age where nickel and dime defenses are the norm, having these 2 guys as your starting point is a comforting fact.

I agree that Rivers is a more likely going to be an OLB more than a DE would normally get me excited. He looked like an explosive athlete who could be something in 3 or 4 years before he was hurt. Common wisdom says that it really takes 2 years to get back to 100% after an ACL, and that goes double for a speed and explosion athlete. So for 2018, I would have very low expectations for Rivers. Play ST's get some reps on situational D's and get valuable experience playing at this level. Remember he was in a 1AA program to start with, so while he got the mental experience last year, he still hasn't gotten actual football reps.

Roberts took on a heavy load last season, and while he didn't light up the league by any means, he didn't suck either. He was tasked as being the primary run stopper on early downs and stopping the run was NOT an issue during the 2nd half of the season He WILL have to improve if he wants to stay in NE past his rookie contract and it would help he was more productive on ST's. Right now he's a decent piece to the puzzle, who, if he improves could be more than that.

McClellan and Harris are goners and will add more cap room when they are gone (about $6MM IIRC) I suggest we spend that money on other positions

.As for the draft. I'd keep looking for those really fast LB/SS types. I'm going to be looking closely at the one-handed kid who is looking to run in the 4.4 range. I think he could be had at the bottom end of the draft and might add the kind of speed we want.

As for the lack of hand, I would remind people that there was a time where people played with a forearm shiver rather than hand placement techniques (including myself) Sure picks might be an issue, but how many do any LB's get now? If you are looking at speed with player we actually have a shot at getting he's the one. (even if I can't remember his name. ;) )
 
The LB corps needs an overhaul, not a tweak. But, with the cap being what it is, and the need at a couple of other critical spots, we'll probably see some form of patchwork again.

We definitely need to spend money at OT, RB and corner. Yes, we could spend money on LB, or not.
 
So, you would change our defensive scheme and depend on a rookie NT and on Rivers on the edge?

Brown, Guy, Valentine, Butler are fine on the inside but a depth upgrade wouldn't hurt

we need linebackers........the 2 decent ones are injury prone, and we don't have anyone who can cover to save their lives.......scheme doesn't matter if your LB's suck
 
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