2014 Draft Prospect Thread

[manxman2601]

Or Christian Jones/Jordan Tripp.

As I noted in another thread, Mayo/Collins/Hightower + Woodyard + Fletcher is a really good LB group. Mayo/Collins/Hightower + Woodyard + Jones/Tripp is potentially an amazing LB group, with incredible athleticism, speed, range, coverage ability and versatility.

Woodyard is 6'0" 233#. It seems like BB is possibly becoming more flexible about size requirements for LBs.

Woodyard, Pierre-Louis, Shazier and Telvin-Smith are all 4.5 guys, Jones and Tripp are a little slower than that.

 

[mayoclinic]

Woodyard, Pierre-Louis, Shazier and Telvin-Smith are all 4.5 guys, Jones and Tripp are a little slower than that.

Jones and Tripp play a lot faster than Pierre-Louis. Telvin Smith is 218#, which is really undersized. Shazier will be a top 40 and probable 1st round pick. Also, Tripps's 3.96 SS and 6.89 3-cone are more important than his 4.67 40 time (which I expect to come down to under 4.6 at his Pro Day).

 

[manxman2601]

Jones and Tripp play a lot faster than Pierre-Louis. Telvin Smith is 218#, which is really undersized. Shazier will be a top 40 and probable 1st round pick. Also, Tripps's 3.96 SS and 6.89 3-cone are more important than his 4.67 40 time (which I expect to come down to under 4.6 at his Pro Day).

1. No they don't. Pierre- Louis plays much quicker. He plays like a safety, they play like linebackers (which is my point).

2. Wesley Woodyard was only nine pounds heavier when he came out. But yes, 218 is undersized for a 3 Down linebacker. My point is though, that this is more about coverage.

3. I'm neither criticising Tripp (in my last mock remember) or Jones. It's just that I'm suggesting that this is less about linebackers and more about pure coverage guys. Big strong safeties if you like and I don't think Tripp or Jones necessarily fit into that specific role.

My point was not about Tripp or Jones but about something specific for which I don't think they are a fit.

 

[sircole]

I also think that Shazier only looks ok tape, but believe his athleticism does warrant late first/early second round grade.

Also, you have to consider that Ohio State defense was awful and they replace one their co-coordinator (Everett Withers-new JMU head coach) with Chris Ash.

In this copycat league, I think Shazier benefits greatly from Jaime Collins success last year --- he was also a very athletic linebacker from a bad 0-12 Southern Miss team--- and teams do not want to miss out on his potential.

 

[everlong]

1. No they don't. Pierre- Louis plays much quicker. He plays like a safety, they play like linebackers (which is my point).

Jones and Tripp do play downhill like linebackers but because of that they do play faster. Being that he went to school locally I really wanted to like Piere-Louis but he really doesn't have great instincts against the run or pass and doesn't take on blockers well at all.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I also think that Shazier only looks ok tape, but believe his athleticism does warrant late first/early second round grade.

Ultra-athletic but mediocre football player = early round bust!

 

[sircole]

Ultra-athletic but mediocre football player = early round bust!

I agree it is highly probable, but many general managers think like this. I'm just hopeful that the coaching on the pats would minimize his bust rate.

 

[everlong]

Not drafting a projection in the first round thins it out pretty thoroughly. Every QB would come off the first round board, as would Greg Robinson and Anthony Barr. Ziggy wouldn't have been a first rounder last year and neither would Dontari Poe two years ago. I'd also question Nate Solder under those rules.

Not getting at you, just pointing out that people draft projections in the first round all the time.

When I say projection I'm talking about a completely new position. In the case of Shazier it's a half truth but I'm projecting him as a hybrid. So the LB part of his duties wouldn't be a projection but his coverage skills improving would be. All the guys you named above really aren't projections. If teams aren't going to use Anythony Barr as a pure edge rusher then perhaps he would qualify but I also think that would be a huge mistake. I don't feel he's fluid enough to play in space or coverage on a frequent basis.

 

[manxman2601]

Jones and Tripp do play downhill like linebackers but because of that they do play faster. Being that he went to school locally I really wanted to like Piere-Louis but he really doesn't have great instincts against the run or pass and doesn't take on blockers well at all.

Not for the first time, we'll have to disagree. I like KPL's tape in a specific off the LoS role. Plays with plus explosivity. I think he has better instincts than someone like Christian Jones too. Now having said that, if I was looking for a 3 down linebacker, then I'd much prefer Jordan Tripp who reminds me of Kiko Alonso that I was high on last year and I'd prefer Jones too. But I'm talking about a very specific pass coverage role here (with ability to support against the run) and I like KPL's fit in that role.

 

[everlong]

My biggest concern was I didn't see him dropping into coverage all that much on tape. I was expecting to see a really athletic guy dropping into deep zones or running with TE's and it just wasn't there. He certainly has the athleticism to project there but to me that is all it is right now, a projection. There are a lot of really good athletes in the NFL that can't cover worth a damn so I would be cautious. To me he is a lot like Mayo's guy Christian Jones, he is a much better athlete than football player right now (which certainly does give them both upside), the difference is Jones is a 3rd rounder where I can see value in taking that chance.

I agree that he drops mostly into zones but given his athletic ability I would project he could cover in man. Christian Jones does have film where he's in man. Given the choice of Shazier at 29-45 or Jones 62-75 it would be Jones with less risk and equal upside.

 

[mayoclinic]

Not for the first time, we'll have to disagree. I like KPL's tape in a specific off the LoS role. Plays with plus explosivity. I think he has better instincts than someone like Christian Jones too. Now having said that, if I was looking for a 3 down linebacker, then I'd much prefer Jordan Tripp who reminds me of Kiko Alonso that I was high on last year and I'd prefer Jones too. But I'm talking about a very specific pass coverage role here (with ability to support against the run) and I like KPL's fit in that role.

I understand your point, and it's a reasonable one, I just don't see KPL's tape backing up that level of play. I understand that his measurables do. We'll just have to disagree for now.

 

[manxman2601]

When I say projection I'm talking about a completely new position. In the case of Shazier it's a half truth but I'm projecting him as a hybrid. So the LB part of his duties wouldn't be a projection but his coverage skills improving would be. All the guys you named above really aren't projections. If teams aren't going to use Anythony Barr as a pure edge rusher then perhaps he would qualify but I also think that would be a huge mistake. I don't feel he's fluid enough to play in space or coverage on a frequent basis.

Oh OK. Misunderstood you on 'projection'.

 

[everlong]

Not for the first time, we'll have to disagree. I like KPL's tape in a specific off the LoS role. Plays with plus explosivity. I think he has better instincts than someone like Christian Jones too. Now having said that, if I was looking for a 3 down linebacker, then I'd much prefer Jordan Tripp who reminds me of Kiko Alonso that I was high on last year and I'd prefer Jones too. But I'm talking about a very specific pass coverage role here (with ability to support against the run) and I like KPL's fit in that role.

Fair enough and I appreciate your input. I just don't see KPL filling that role. In regards to Tripp he would also be a much better value than Shazier later in the draft.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I agree it is highly probable, but many general managers think like this. I'm just hopeful that the coaching on the pats would minimize his bust rate.

I'm sure you're right, but I also think most GMs are idiots who are more concerned with thinking inside the box and not rocking the boat rather than breaking established trends. If he goes that early it means someone else I'd prefer gets pushed back.

 

[manxman2601]

Fair enough and I appreciate your input. I just don't see KPL filling that role. In regards to Tripp he would also be a much better value than Shazier later in the draft.

Again, I think Shazier and Tripp are different type prospects. I see Shazier very much in a hunter seeker role -as a pass and run blitzer, as someone who plays sideline to sideline and as someone who provides a second level of defense for once the ball gets past the LOS. I like Tripp better as a traditional 4-3 MLB like Alonso or Urlacher. Picks through traffic in the run game to make the stop. Has the range to counter the run game to the edges and can drop into zone coverage or deep zone coverage in a Tampa 2 role.

 

[mayoclinic]

Again, I think Shazier and Tripp are different type prospects. I see Shazier very much in a hunter seeker role -as a pass and run blitzer, as someone who plays sideline to sideline and as someone who provides a second level of defense for once the ball gets past the LOS. I like Tripp better as a traditional 4-3 MLB like Alonso or Urlacher. Picks through traffic in the run game to make the stop. Has the range to counter the run game to the edges and can drop into zone coverage or deep zone coverage in a Tampa 2 role.

I think Tripp and Jones can play both roles. That's part of why I like them so much.

 

[manxman2601]

@Mayo and Everlong.

Just bear in mind that Tripp is fast becoming my favourite linebacker in this draft , much as Alonso did last year. I am not talking about linebackers here per se, I'm talking about a linebacker/safety hybrid role which is why I stressed the 4.5 speed.

I should also point out that that was my interpretation based on the Shazier and Woodyard contact. I might be wrong, BB might be looking for a 3 down conventional Will linebacker but I'm not convinced.

 

[mayoclinic]

@Mayo and Everlong.

Just bear in mind that Tripp is fast becoming my favourite linebacker in this draft , much as Alonso did last year. I am not talking about linebackers here per se, I'm talking about a linebacker/safety hybrid role which is why I stressed the 4.5 speed.

I should also point out that that was my interpretation based on the Shazier and Woodyard contact. I might be wrong, BB might be looking for a 3 down conventional Will linebacker but I'm not convinced.

I got it. I'm not criticizing you, just saying that we disagree. I think that both Jones and particularly Tripp are capable of playing a hybrid LB/S role (in addition to other roles), and I'm not sold on KPL's tape in terms of him playing that role. It's ok to disagree.

 

[everlong]

Again, I think Shazier and Tripp are different type prospects. I see Shazier very much in a hunter seeker role -as a pass and run blitzer, as someone who plays sideline to sideline and as someone who provides a second level of defense for once the ball gets past the LOS. I like Tripp better as a traditional 4-3 MLB like Alonso or Urlacher. Picks through traffic in the run game to make the stop. Has the range to counter the run game to the edges and can drop into zone coverage or deep zone coverage in a Tampa 2 role.

I think in college you're exactly right. I think Shazier for a fit in regards only to the Patriots would need to be more of a coverage LB who can when called upon attack the LOS and blitz. You're suggesting Shazier be allowed to be Ray Lewis or Junior Seau in his SD glory days. I just don't see that as Bill's direction. I can see him playing the role you're advocating with other teams.

Tripp I agree he would play an Urlacher role with how I see the Patriot's defense moving, or hope it's moving.

 

[everlong]

I got it. I'm not criticizing you, just saying that we disagree. I think that both Jones and particularly Tripp are capable of playing a hybrid LB/S role (in addition to other roles), and I'm not sold on KPL's tape in terms of him playing that role. It's ok to disagree.

Which is also what Shazier would need to do IMO.