Curran: "In my estimation... [Gonzo would like to] be treated as if he's at the table in 2027." [previous title: "say goodbye to gonzo"]

[TommyD4207]

Sorry but that’s just simply isn’t true.

You not wanting to believe it - and it is, indeed, difficult to believe the 2nd-highest valuated franchise over the last 25 years could be capable of being bottom 5 in real cash spending over the last, 5, 10 and 20 years, could possibly be true.

It actually is, indeed, true.

 

[mike_usagisan]

curious why one esteemed contributor is granted unlimited political disparagements

To be perfectly honest, I haven’t been following this thread for a while, so had no idea any political disparagements had been invoked.

 

[Vindicate]

Sorry but that’s just simply isn’t true.

There's not much to argue with here. They're nearly dead last (31) in the past 10 years: Study: Patriots among NFL’s lowest spenders over past 10 years

My guess would be that the patriots would be right down the middle.

Why just disagree and then offer a guess lol?

 

[TheRainMaker]

You have to build that strong "middle class" and you cannot do that by paying all your top players whatever they want, whenever they want it.

This all sounds good, but then when you give really good contracts to a bunch of mediocre players, the middle class theory fails you badly.

I mean, look at this:

Carlton Davis $18m AAV
Harold Landry $14.5m AAV

Combined $32.5m AAV (what Witherspoon got).

If if were me, I'd trade Gonzalez for Davis and Landry.

This is why superstars get paid, because you can get pretty good production from other players for a lot cheaper than the $32.5m we're paying Davis and Landry, which leaves good money for the superstars.

It would really be absurd for us to lose Gonzalez and yet we get to keep oldheads like Davis, AJ Brown, and Landry.

I would call that a colossal error in teambuilding and mismanagement of the salary cap.

You're supposed to keep your young studs and use the draft to fill in around them, with grizzled vets coming on for friendly deals like Moses's, Hollins's, Byard's, etc.

Save the money for Gonzalez, Milt Williams, Maye.

The Pats were clogging their roster up with "middle class" players because BB continually whiffed on drafts starting in 2013. That's not a model you want to follow. The only reason why they pulled 3 super bowls out of their asses was because they kept core players from 2009-2012 drafts. One of them being a generational player in Gronk. Upstater provides examples of what happens when you play the "moneyball" route. It will eventually haunt you.

The Pats missed out on Emmanuel Sanders in 2014 because they blew their wad on Danny Amendola one year prior. They also couldn't trade for him in 2019 because they couldn't fit him under the cap. I certainly didn't like watching him climb the latter multiple times on Butler in the 2015 AFCCG catching crucial 1st downs.

Chandler Jones was a guy drafted and should've been retained.

Akiem Hicks was also a massive loss that same off-season after stealing him in a trade. He wasn't asking for much, but Bill spent too two consecutive 1st round picks on a mediocre DT in Brown and eventual bust Easily. Bill played games and Hicks eventually said no thanks to Bill's 11th hour offer.

The Pats couldn't franchise and use Trey Flowers in a trade because their cap didn't allow it.

How in the world does Joe Thuney not get retained? The dynasty was over and Thuney wasn't going to make a difference, but just another player that had no business leaving.

The reason why you draft well is to land an eventual star player on a cheaper contract. A good problem to have is the situation they are in with Gonzalez because it means you drafted at least someone well. The question remains whether the Pats should pay him what he wants.

 

[TommyD4207]

Chandler Jones was a guy drafted and should've been retained.

I agree with your entire post except for this.

His incident on the Foxboro PD's front lawn was more than enough to get him cut, outright, I don't care how good he was.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I agree with your entire post except for this.

His incident on the Foxboro PD's front lawn was more than enough to get him cut, outright, I don't care how good he was.

It was overblown. If it was that much of a problem, then he would've been benched in the AFCCG.

He was fine in Arizona before eventually going crazy in LV.

On the other hand, Aaron Hernandez was doing **** that should've gotten him cut the day he entered the facility.

 

[TommyD4207]

It was overblown. If it was that much of a problem, then he would've been benched in the AFCCG.

He was fine in Arizona before eventually going crazy in LV.

He should have been benched for the AFCCG. The only reason he wasn't is because Belichick wanted to get everything out of him he could, because he was already gone.

He would have been well within his rights to cut him, and he would have been applauded for it.

 

[n1997y]

This all sounds good, but then when you give really good contracts to a bunch of mediocre players, the middle class theory fails you badly.

I mean, look at this:

Carlton Davis $18m AAV
Harold Landry $14.5m AAV

Combined $32.5m AAV (what Witherspoon got).

If if were me, I'd trade Gonzalez for Davis and Landry.

This is why superstars get paid, because you can get pretty good production from other players for a lot cheaper than the $32.5m we're paying Davis and Landry, which leaves good money for the superstars.

It would really be absurd for us to lose Gonzalez and yet we get to keep oldheads like Davis, AJ Brown, and Landry.

I would call that a colossal error in teambuilding and mismanagement of the salary cap.

You're supposed to keep your young studs and use the draft to fill in around them, with grizzled vets coming on for friendly deals like Moses's, Hollins's, Byard's, etc.

Save the money for Gonzalez, Milt Williams, Maye.

Respectfully, you have me confused. I started out thinking I disagree, then the more I read the more I agree and the more it seems you may disagree with yourself.

You start by pointing out that together Davis and Landry are getting what Witherspoon and soon Gonzo are getting. Then you say you would trade Gonzo for Davis and Landry which makes me think you value the two of them together more than Gonzo, and that’s where I disagree. I like both Davis and Landry, but I just don’t value them that highly.

The rest of what you wrote is about replacing guys like Davis and Landry with younger more economical players. That where I totally agree. As much as I like Davis I would prefer to see him replaced by Prunty or Vildor. Not sure they are there yet but very soon, and that gives younger better cheaper CB play replacing Davis. Likewise I want to see Jacas developing well enough to replace Landry, and I see that likely happening much sooner than others on this board are expecting.

And I think we agree that using those savings to pay Gonzo is a good idea. I’m just not entirely sure how you feel about that if you’re really willing to trade Gonzo for Davis and Landry.

 

[n1997y]

You not wanting to believe it - and it is, indeed, difficult to believe the 2nd-highest valuated franchise over the last 25 years could be capable of being bottom 5 in real cash spending over the last, 5, 10 and 20 years, could possibly be true.

It actually is, indeed, true.

Sometimes correlation is causation.

Could it be that the high franchise value results from profitability that results from keeping spending under control?

 

[upstater1]

Respectfully, you have me confused. I started out thinking I disagree, then the more I read the more I agree and the more it seems you may disagree with yourself.

You start by pointing out that together Davis and Landry are getting what Witherspoon and soon Gonzo are getting. Then you say you would trade Gonzo for Davis and Landry which makes me think you value the two of them together more than Gonzo, and that’s where I disagree. I like both Davis and Landry, but I just don’t value them that highly.

The rest of what you wrote is about replacing guys like Davis and Landry with younger more economical players. That where I totally agree. As much as I like Davis I would prefer to see him replaced by Prunty or Vildor. Not sure they are there yet but very soon, and that gives younger better cheaper CB play replacing Davis. Likewise I want to see Jacas developing well enough to replace Landry, and I see that likely happening much sooner than others on this board are expecting.

And I think we agree that using those savings to pay Gonzo is a good idea. I’m just not entirely sure how you feel about that if you’re really willing to trade Gonzo for Davis and Landry.

Yes, I'm saying Landry + Davis do not equal a Gonzalez. You pay Gonzalez for those two. Should read I trade FOR Gonzo

 

[TommyD4207]

Sometimes correlation is causation.

Could it be that the high franchise value results from profitability that results from keeping spending under control?

There's a difference between 'keeping spending under control' and 'bologna sandwiches'.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Bill Belichick had a long history of moving on from top cornerbacks, this is a different regime, they will make their own history, be that good or bad:

 

[Huckleberry1]

JC Jackson?
Malcolm Butler?

I thought that was a list of top NFL CBs, the cream. Do those guys really belong on such a list?

And it provided no context. Example, Belichick chose to move on from Malcolm Butler, who wanted to be paid like a top CB, but wasn't one, and immediately signed Stephon Gilmore to a top contract, and he became DPOY. The blanket statements are idiotic.

 

[TheRainMaker]

He should have been benched for the AFCCG. The only reason he wasn't is because Belichick wanted to get everything out of him he could, because he was already gone.

He would have been well within his rights to cut him, and he would have been applauded for it.

I don't think BB was going to re-sign him anyways because of the cap situation.

 

[TommyD4207]

I don't think BB was going to re-sign him anyways because of the cap situation.

Maybe not, but any chance of that happening ended after he ended up naked on the Foxboro PD's lawn, ****ed up on fake weed.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Maybe not, but any chance of that happening ended after he ended up naked on the Foxboro PD's lawn, ****ed up on fake weed.

He was only shirtless.

Aaron Hernandez was somehow allowed to work out in the training room naked though.

 

[TommyD4207]

He was only shirtless.

Aaron Hernandez was somehow allowed to work out in the training room naked though.

That was the media story. They put pants on him before they sent him to Norwood.

 

[upstater1]

Bill Belichick had a long history of moving on from top cornerbacks, this is a different regime, they will make their own history, be that good or bad:

Even Belichick did not move on from top CBs.

Ty Law left in his 11th year after his 3rd contract.
Stephon Gilmore left after his 10th year and effectively his 3rd contract (his deal was redone).
Asante Samuel is the one we let go and I'd argue Samuel was never worth being a top CB in the league.

Revis got 10% of the cap with Patriots and he left for 12% of the cap with the Jets, where he showed he was old and washed up.

All these decisions are sensible and have little to do with paying a player going into his 4th year.

Especially when you consider we paid Gilmore top dollar, highest paid CB in the NFL, and in Gilmore's last year, he cost us 11.4% of the cap, which is the equivalent of $36m for next year.

 

[Vindicate]

Maybe not, but any chance of that happening ended after he ended up naked on the Foxboro PD's lawn, ****ed up on fake weed.

Eh. It was a weird time back then when players are trying to find ways to avoid triggering a piss test while managing pain and this was when "spice" was getting crazier and crazier by the second and batches varied greatly, often adding random molecules to duck bans. Offering my perspective as someone who, ahem, partook in such activities and had been in the job hunt (****ing marketing jobs needing a piss test?!)

All that to say, that **** could hit you out of no-where and be the most intense drug experiences you've had. Funny thing is, going in blind you just kinda expected it to be weaker because it was fake.

I don't hold that incident much against him. **** is incredibly embarrassing for himself and barely a distraction to the team.

Food for thought.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

curious why one esteemed contributor is granted unlimited political disparagements

If you are on the left, it is always polite warnings on PatsFans, so the BS goes on for years.