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Vinatieri ribs BB in his HOF speech

- He has the record for most points scored in NFL history
- He has the greatest kick in NFL history
- He has 4 SB rings, 2 won on last second field goals by him
- He is a member of the NFLs All Time 100 team
- He is a member of the NFL 2000’s team
- He is a 3x All Pro

What else does anyone need to see that Adam V is a no doubt, sure thing, absolutely deserved member of the Hall of Fame?
1. He played for two very good teams and played for 24 seasons. Of course he scored a million points.
2. He did indeed make the greatest kick in NFL history. An amazing kick.
3. He has 4 SB rings, and won one on a last second 48 yard field goal against the Rams. A clutch kick for sure, although I think many of his peers would have done the same. The other win was against Carolina, where he missed a 31 yard field goal earlier in the game and had a second kick blocked, which would have won the game beforehand. He then made up for it with a second kick at the end from 41 yards. I'm not sure how "clutch" that performance was.
4. I disagree with this assessment. Don't know what else to say.
5. Perhaps.
6. He was All Pro three times in 23 seasons. Never second team. Not that impressive. It would be interesting to research the number of Hall of Famers who were All Pro only three times in their lengthy careers. As a comparison, Justin Tucker, during the course of Vinatieri's career, was first team All Pro 5 time and second team All Pro 3 times.
 
To be fair, it is we, collectively -- the fans -- who have voted others in over Adam.

To me it's not a great look when one of our players gets a gold jacket before he gets a red jacket.
It makes us look petty, as if we are holding a grudge for his playing for the Colts.

Though Kraft has also set a precedent for breaking the Pats Hall of Fame rules, with Parcells.
He probably needs to step in and do the same with Vinatieri.
Adam was never going to get more votes than Gronk, that's for sure.
Or alternatively, Kraft could have just put Gronk in (like he did with Tom), and let the fans vote for Adam vs Mankins vs whoever.

One possible solution might be expanding it to two inductees per year.
 
1. He played for two very good teams and played for 24 seasons. Of course he scored a million points.
2. He did indeed make the greatest kick in NFL history. An amazing kick.
3. He has 4 SB rings, and won one on a last second 48 yard field goal against the Rams. A clutch kick for sure, although I think many of his peers would have done the same. The other win was against Carolina, where he missed a 31 yard field goal earlier in the game and had a second kick blocked, which would have won the game beforehand. He then made up for it with a second kick at the end from 41 yards. I'm not sure how "clutch" that performance was.
4. I disagree with this assessment. Don't know what else to say.
5. Perhaps.
6. He was All Pro three times in 23 seasons. Never second team. Not that impressive. It would be interesting to research the number of Hall of Famers who were All Pro only three times in their lengthy careers. As a comparison, Justin Tucker, during the course of Vinatieri's career, was first team All Pro 5 time and second team All Pro 3 times.
1. The average length of an NFL kickers career is 4.5 seasons. He played 24. Doesn’t that tell you something? (Hint: He was great for a long time)

3. When it came to the most important moments like game winners in playoffs and SBs he was the best ever. The snow game, Rams SB 48 yds down the middle as time expired. Panthers, 42 yds as time expired. That is the definition of clutch,.

4. Well, I’ll take the voting committee that consisted of Belichick, Madden, Vermeil, Ron Wolf, and others over your assessment

5. Not perhaps, he was voted as the starting kicker for the NFL All 2000’s team

6. Making an all pro at any point is impressive. There are great, great players that we all love who don’t have 1 all pro to their name. Brady played 23 years and has the same number of 1st team all pros as Adam V.
 
Does a NFL owner just ignore the current state of affairs and says **** it, he's my guy?
Looking at the NFL owners, I can envision a few selling their soul to the devil for a Lombardi trophy or hiring BB despite his baggage.
OK maybe not Lurie/Roseman in Philly but look at some of the other dreg franchises that haven't sniffed the playoffs.
The drawback may be that there are 10 new coaches this year that obviously have a few years to right their ship unless they get MAyo'd so how many positions will be available next year, Indy?Jetes (wouldn't that beat all),Washington?Cinn? Tampa?
 
One possible solution might be expanding it to two inductees per year.
In certain years that should absolutely be the case.
Yet at the same time we are reaching a saturation point.

If or when something expands to a certain number or percentage, it makes being part of that group less meaningful.
Two per year would make one of NFL's already-largest team (Pats) Hall's even bigger.

Hopefully being a member of the Patriots Hall of Fame will continue to be something very special.
 
Once again, check out career percentages.... when Gary Anderson retired in 2004, he was the MOST EFFICIENT KICKER IN NFL HISTORY at 80%. He is now ranked 74th.

The game has changed in percentages. Kicking accuracy, QB efficiency, all changed since the 21st century started. When Steve Young retired in 1999, he was #1. He is now tied for 12th. Jimmy G rates higher. You'd have to drop to 27th now to find the #2 most efficient passer at the turn of the 21st century in Joe Montana.

Rating guys who started their careers in the '90s and before and comparing them without analysis to guys who came after is not a smart idea.
 
Once again, check out career percentages.... when Gary Anderson retired in 2004, he was the MOST EFFICIENT KICKER IN NFL HISTORY at 80%. He is now ranked 74th.

The game has changed in percentages. Kicking accuracy, QB efficiency, all changed since the 21st century started. When Steve Young retired in 1999, he was #1. He is now tied for 12th. Jimmy G rates higher. You'd have to drop to 27th now to find the #2 most efficient passer at the turn of the 21st century in Joe Montana.

Rating guys who started their careers in the '90s and before and comparing them without analysis to guys who came after is not a smart idea.
1. Vinatieri field goal percentage from 2006 until 2019: 86% (playing in a dome).
2. Steven Gostkowski during the same time: 86%
3. Justin Tucker 2012-2019: 90%


I'm not claiming that Vinatieri is a bum. He was very, very good. As I've written, the kick in the blizzard was the greatest kick of all time, and I give him credit for the kick against the Rams. That was clutch, although I think a bunch of other kickers can make that same kick in a dome. I don't think hitting a 41 yard field goal in a dome in a Super Bowl after you've already missed from 31 yards and missed an extra point and had a field goal blocked defines you as "clutch" or means you "won the game". All I've tried to point out is that he was among the best of his era, but not heads and shoulders greater than others of the same era. I'll stop now....
 
........ I'll stop now....

Probably for the best Given I mentioned that comparing kickers who started their careers before the 21st century to ones who didn't is not an accurate comparison. Vinatieri's development and fundamentals were from another era. Clearly many things changed for such a drastic increase in power and accuracy.

Another example showing the massive change in kickers training...

In 1998, Jason Elam tied Tom Dempsey's record of a 63 yard field goal. It took 28 years to tie that record.

It has now been broken 11 times in the 28 years since.

I don't know how much clearer it could be that kickers have changed a lot since Vinatieri came up through the system.
 
Underrated kick - game winner in the 03 Titans playoff game


Can’t imagine it was easy kicking a ball that was frozen solid
 
Belichick has done plenty in recent years to look bad, but I'm not going to criticize him for not skipping a North Carolina practice to be at the HOF ceremony. If he owes Vinatieri for 2 of his rings, you should be equally upset with Brady for not being there either.
I fathom that BB called AV to congratulate and explain his abscence.

BB must right the Tarheels ship so that he can move on and allow Stevie to assume HC responsibilities.
 
3. When it came to the most important moments like game winners in playoffs and SBs he was the best ever. The snow game, Rams SB 48 yds down the middle as time expired. Panthers, 42 yds as time expired. That is the definition of clutch,.
The 4th quarter FG in SB 39 was clutch IMO too.

Pats won 24 - 21 and that FG put the game on cruise control up by 2 scores.
 
I posted my dementia theory before here and here. From what I saw of a recent press conference, it would not surprise me one bit if we learn this is the root cause of all of the observations many are making about his professional and personal behavior. Like it or not, there is a loved one in my life going through it now, so I have learned a lot about it and the time line is not too far off what the one the literature I've read suggests.

Interestingly enough, in searching my posting history to find these links I found this post where I defended Bill against people who accused Bill of having dementia when he chose to bring in Cam Newton in 2021. I was surprised to rediscover it was a topic even back then. I was emphatic that Bill knew what he was doing. Oops!

It is just a theory, but it's hard to explain the change in the executive level decision making skills of this man in his late period.
Neither of us, I suppose, is in a position to diagnosis the guy, though your speculations are reasonable. I have a sister going through this at present. Early in the process of cognitive decline - whatever the precise diagnosis might be - the symptoms are easily denied or attributed to circumstances. The patient, I think, suspects something is wrong but is afraid to acknowledge it to themselves, and responds with anger at any suggestion there is a problem. The doctor's call it "irritability," but it is something far more difficult than that genteel terms implies. I suppose the more innately stubborn a person is, the more their sense of self-worth is vested in their intelligence, the worse it might be. That's our Bill.

So the first step is to get the person acknowledging there is a problem openly enough that the next step can be brought to seek medical help. This seems a simple thing to those of us not afflicted in this way, but it can be a massive hurdle for the person in question. It took my sister literally years to get there, and even then she has not really acknowledged her problem: she has simply gotten too disorganized in her thoughts to resist being cajoled into seeing the doctors about it.

In Bill's case , it doesn't seem we are anywhere near his acknowledging a problem, whatever the nature of that problem might be. Some fans are complicit in his denial, I think, but one can't blame them: this sort of thing is tough for anyone who has any sort of relationship with the person, even if that relationship is mere fandom.
 
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My bad. Your erudite posts shine through the usual PatsFans chatter, like pyrite in a dung heap. lol.
"Pyrite," eh? They call it "Fool's Gold," I believe. I take your point, which is not without merit, you sly fellow..
 
My expenses went up in retirement.

Perhaps buying myself a vintage (polite word for old) airplane wasn’t the soundest financial plan for retirement.

It has definitely kept me busy. I don’t know how I ever had time for a job!
Buying airplanes is a pricey diversion, but I understand a love for old machinery. I have contented myself with restoring old sewing machines - beautiful mechanical contrivances - and buying, within the inelastic limits of my wife's patience, more guitars than I need.
 
Amen, I am one year form retirement and don't want to "jump the shark" and want to walk away without being pushed. Bill could have walked away and gone right to the Sunday shows without missing a beat..
Thank God youll make it to retire.

My sister has a very good friend whose husband devoted 30 + years to a company and he was just let go 2 weeks ago. He was 2 years away from retirement. He did whatever it took to do his job working extended hours on salary and everything.
 
Neither of us, I suppose, is in a position to diagnosis the guy, though your speculations are reasonable. I have a sister going through this at present. Early in the process of cognitive decline - whatever the precise diagnosis might be - the symptoms are easily denied or attributed to circumstances. The patient, I think, suspects something is wrong but is afraid to acknowledge it to themselves, and responds with anger at any suggestion there is a problem. The doctor's call it "irritability," but it is something far more difficult than that genteel terms implies. I suppose the more innately stubborn a person is, the more their sense of self-worth is vested in their intelligence, the worse it might be. That's our Bill.

So the first step is to get the person acknowledging there is a problem openly enough that the next step can be brought to seek medical help. This seems a simple thing to those of us not afflicted in this way, but it can be a massive hurdle for the person in question. It took my sister literally years to get there, and even then she has not really acknowledged her problem: she has simply gotten too disorganized in her thoughts to resist being cajoled into seeing the doctors about it.

Yeah, that is a challenge even for a person without elevated self-worth. One cousin went on a week-long camping trip with another cousin. He asked me if anyone has noticed anything odd about the second cousin. I said I'd had dinner with them and didn't notice anything. He said they kept repeating stories they already told, or asked questions they had already asked recently. I said ahh, now that you mention it, that did happen at dinner. This cousin said he'd have a conversation with the cousin's husband. It took about a year before they told us the situation was being addressed. I think the cousin's husband probably wasn't going to rock the boat if people didn't begin pointing out the odd behavior. It took someone 'outside the hive' to shed some light on the situation and get the evaluation and treatment process going.

In Bill's case , it doesn't seem we are anywhere near his acknowledging a problem, whatever the nature of that problem might be. Some fans are complicit in his denial, I think, but one can't blame them: this sort of thing is tough for anyone who has any sort of relationship with the person, even if that relationship is mere fandom.

In Bill's case, there is some extremely suspicious complicity going on. There is unconventionally young life partner who now has millions of dollars in Boston real estate that she didn't have a few years ago, with no obvious funding source except one. There is a football executive who according to another exec was fired from every job he got, who now makes more salary than he ever made before. These people have obvious advantages to keeping the world thinking that BB is still the legendary coaching mind he once was.

Someone introduced Richard Nixon to the conversation above. It's not a bad analogy. Nixon had All The President's Men shielding him from the outside world. BB has Fat Mike and Bunny and presumably a few more who are deeply invested in Bill's tenure at UNC.

Again, it's all a theory, but let's keep seeing how things play out.
 
Yeah, that is a challenge even for a person without elevated self-worth. One cousin went on a week-long camping trip with another cousin. He asked me if anyone has noticed anything odd about the second cousin. I said I'd had dinner with them and didn't notice anything. He said they kept repeating stories they already told, or asked questions they had already asked recently. I said ahh, now that you mention it, that did happen at dinner. This cousin said he'd have a conversation with the cousin's husband. It took about a year before they told us the situation was being addressed. I think the cousin's husband probably wasn't going to rock the boat if people didn't begin pointing out the odd behavior. It took someone 'outside the hive' to shed some light on the situation and get the evaluation and treatment process going.



In Bill's case, there is some extremely suspicious complicity going on. There is unconventionally young life partner who now has millions of dollars in Boston real estate that she didn't have a few years ago, with no obvious funding source except one. There is a football executive who according to another exec was fired from every job he got, who now makes more salary than he ever made before. These people have obvious advantages to keeping the world thinking that BB is still the legendary coaching mind he once was.

Someone introduced Richard Nixon to the conversation above. It's not a bad analogy. Nixon had All The President's Men shielding him from the outside world. BB has Fat Mike and Bunny and presumably a few more who are deeply invested in Bill's tenure at UNC.

Again, it's all a theory, but let's keep seeing how things play out.
Short term memory is generally the first to go, and repeating remarks or particularly questions already asked and answered is typically the first problem others notice.

The possibility that Bill is vulnerable to exploitation, even if unwittingly, to be generous, is very real and may already be ongoing. His family needs to get together on this and coordinate their efforts at dealing with it. It is not going to be easy, given the nature of the condition and Bill's prickly temperament.
 
He played 24 years in the NFL and 10 years with the Patriots so more than half his career was elsewhere.
Patriots HOF inductee Bill Parcells was NE HC for 4 years (32-32 record) during his 4+ decade NFL career.

90% of Big Tuna's NFL career was elsewhere
 
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I am n
- He has the record for most points scored in NFL history
- He has the greatest kick in NFL history
- He has 4 SB rings, 2 won on last second field goals by him
- He is a member of the NFLs All Time 100 team
- He is a member of the NFL 2000’s team
- He is a 3x All Pro

What else does anyone need to see that Adam V is a no doubt, sure thing, absolutely deserved member of the Hall of Fame?
I am not denigrating Adam in the least
but his inclusion in the hall is more about longevity rather than superiority
his rings are a team accomplishment
again, Adam was great, but never the best in the league in any given year.
I believe we have seen seasons where Ghost and Folk were best in league
just my opinion
 
I retired in my early 70's, which for me and in my line of work - as a huckster for literature and philosophy, a barker for brainy fun - was just about right. My reviews from higher-ups and students were pretty stellar to the end, but I know I had begun cutting a few corners, dropping a few extras, declining a few challenges, feeling angered by change, being unnecessarily peremptory; and I know that if I had gone on much longer, I would have sort of dishonored whatever very modest legacy I might leave. I wish Bill had done the same, for his sake.

I retired from high tech in my late 50s which is not bad for that field, but of course some do better than me. I saw many people leave either voluntarily or involuntarily much younger than myself. IMO it does become a challenge for most of us to keep up with the younger, faster brains as we age. You do that by leveraging experience mostly.

Yet since experienced people are the high end of the salary range, you are always a juicy target at layoff time. In hindsight, I'm kinda surprised I survived as many layoffs as I did. When I did get axed from a place where I worked for 15 years, I looked around the room and every other victim was in their 50s.

It's kind of the nature of things, just like the NFL. Management looks around and sees a younger role player and starts wondering if they can/will step up to a bigger role. At the same time they see the salary of the aging vet. It isn't a physical job but as above some drop-off with age IMO is normal. The manager starts to worry that they have too many aging vets and not enough up-and-coming talent on the roster. They know they are compared to other managers.

As above, I feel good that I survived as many layoff cycles as I did. The company was famous for having an annual layoff cycle each year in the late summer (which is when the fiscal year wound down) so everyone stressed about their future each and every late summer. Fun times, eh?

Amen, I am one year form retirement and don't want to "jump the shark" and want to walk away without being pushed. Bill could have walked away and gone right to the Sunday shows without missing a beat..

One thing about high tech is I don't think I saw a genuine retirement party in my 35 years in it. Pretty much all end-of-career departures were either due to layoff or due to frustration with the work situation. Not one was hey, I've reached my financial goals and am sailing off into the sunset, thanks for the gold watch.

After the 15-year gig mentioned above, I worked for almost 3 years at a smaller company. I departed due to the frustration of being transferred from a very good manager to a very bad manager. Maybe the younger me would have put up with it, maybe not. I sat down with my financial advisor and said am I ok to retire? He said if you don't acquire any bad spending habits you'll be ok. That was enough for me. So, no vintage airplane for me, LOL!

Overall I'd say the management change is what pushed me, but also, in the end it was my decision to walk. I got lots of advice to just cope with the bad manager but I decided to walk instead. Turns out if I waited a couple weeks I could have gotten a layoff since they whacked the entire new product development part of the company but that was fine, I was already transitioned to retirement.

The first few months of retirement were scary due to the huge change in the financial arrangements. I kept wondering if I should find another job. But I also felt a lot better about life. My inner stress level dropped a lot. Then COVID-19 hit so it was pretty normal to not be working. I think it took me a good year till I felt comfortable with the way things were. I just tracked my investments vs my spending and decided it'd all work out just like my financial advisor said it would.

Since then I have been given job offers and said no thanks. Most of it was because I have adjusted to a low-stress life and don't want to go back to a high-stress life again. Part of it is I do wonder if I could sit at a desk and put in 8+ hours of work that requires high levels of mental focus. My hobbies involve some of the tech I learned at that last gig and can say it's a lot of fun to do what you want to do on your own schedule instead of doing what the boss wants you to do on their schedule.

So, getting back to your situation, I know the inner dialog runs smoother if you can say to yourself you weren't pushed, but in reality, it just doesn't matter much. IMO, whatever inner turbulence gets created by being pushed fades away pretty quickly. Once retired you have lots more time to fill. It's best to spend the time looking forward, and to avoid the trap of spending too much time looking backward.
 

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