Breer: Vrabel says the Pats will approach the offseason getting younger, cheaper, & better options

[Ring 6]

It was stupid. I said it the day it happened. And I would have said the same to you if you made the same ridiculous decision.

My point is, I’m not enforcing it. One of you - or both - can put the other on ignore/block, etc. But as far as I’m concerned, it’s irrelevant here in terms of his ability to remain here. Aside from whatever differences you guys might have.

He suggested the terms of the bet, not me.
It was a 2 way bet.

It’s not up to you to enforce it, it’s up to him to have the character to do what he agreed to.
I’m not asking for you to ban him or have anything to do with it. But he should be an adult and accept the consequences of his actions.

 

[reflexblue]

You appear to have as much character as Sam.
Interesting that you defend the guy who refuses to keep his word.

Thats right, like i said suck on it. There are about 12to 15 posters that i immediately read their opinions. there are another 6 that i'm interested in what they have to say. YOU ain't in either group. So it doesn't bother me to put u on ignore, i won't miss anything.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

Some of you guys are Breaking the Rules!

The rules of sanity that is....
Carry on.

 

[Ring 6]

Thats right, like i said suck on it. There are about 12to 15 posters that i immediately read their opinions. there are another 6 that i'm interested in what they have to say. YOU ain't in either group. So it doesn't bother me to put u on ignore, i won't miss anything.

Good I have yet to see a post from you that I placed any value on

 

[reflexblue]

Good I have yet to see a post from you that I pjj k aced any value on

Good I have yet to see a post from you that I pjj k aced any value on

Seriously thats ok with me, im hear mainly to read others opinions. have a nice weekend

 

[Ring 6]

Seriously thats ok with me, im hear mainly to read others opinions. have a nice weekend

Yet you keep responding.

 

[n1997y]

Yet you keep responding.

Some folks like playing Whack-a-mole.

 

[Gumby]

Some folks like playing Whack-a-mole.

That deserves a gif. Couldn’t stop laughing. Never a better description of Andy.

…..
Hey, Can anyone put his Avatar on there?

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Believe they should cut Bradbury and switch Wilson to center and Brown at LG, should save $ there

You think our starting left side of the OL in 2026 should be Campbell - Brown - Wilson?

 

[Gumby]

You think our starting left side of the OL in 2026 should be Campbell - Brown - Wilson?

IMO is a good TRAINING CAMP solution/starting position.
Still would look to pickup & see if a better LG (FA-draft) who can re-bump Brown back to backup. But start Brown in TC.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Whoa, you're taking some pretty big leaps of faith and making some sweeping generalizations here.

Diggs was not a poor signing and we got our money's worth for sure this year. But last year we paid him $19.8M and he had a cap number of $8.7M. This year if we keep him we pay $22.5M and he has a cap number of $26.5M. We can gain a big amount f cap space by cutting him.

Very few NFL contracts are actually seen through to the finish and even if they are, there's usually some sort of adjustment along the way (i.e. salary to signing bonus conversion). Suggesting we cut a player does not mean it wasn't a good signing.

I would be totally on board with keeping Diggs. But it was just about the cap allocation. I only broke down the WR/TE position in the post you quoted but we have a whole roster to address. We've got about $42M of cap space now. So we could sign the guys I suggested without cutting Diggs. But then that cap space starts drying up and how do you address other spots to the extend I'd like to?

No argument from me that "our current group + addition(s)" would be better than "our current group - Diggs + addition(s)". I just felt that in the overall team building concept, offsetting the cost of the guys I signed by cutting Diggs made more sense. I believe we're still net improvement on offense and I really like the mix/blend of skill sets we'd have for now and for the future since it was too young guys. And I believe those savings from Diggs can be spent on other parts of the roster (OL, edge rusher).

Great post and great idea.

I am not sold on Likely. Not a blocker, not strong on the ball, and not a great attitude.

Why not Pitts or Otten?

 

[Huckleberry1]

I don't disagree with that statement in a vacuum. It just has to all fit into the overall team building concept.

I really like the fit of Pierce and Likely here. I also want to sign Connor McGovern at Center and sign a starting caliber LG too. I also want to re-sign Chaisson. I also want to splurge on Trey Hendrickson for a short term deal since EDGE is such a weak spot. I'd like to keep Hawkins or sign a proven vet to replace him. I'd like to keep Tonga.

Totally hear you on keeping Diggs. I'm not against it. It's just about how the pieces all fit together on the field and on the cap sheet. Diggs really works best out of the slot at this stage of his career but we run a lot of 2 TE sets which minimizes slot looks. That's part of why Diggs' snap percentage was so low last year despite a high target rate when he was out there. That's kind of why I liked the Pierce/Likely fits in the scenario I posted where Diggs was cut to free up that money (so existing cap space could go towards other spots). If Diggs is kept, I think we should try to move away from 2 TE sets as the main focus to more 3 WR packages.

This draft is strong at TE and Isiah Likely is no better than Hooper is, I wouldn't waste a dime on him. I like McGovern but I want Lindebaum over anyone else in free agency. OL has to be the priority this offseason. This draft is also strong at WR , and while I understand why people want Pierce a deep threat isn't going to do the any good if Maye doesn't have time to hit them.

 

[Ross12]

This draft is strong at TE and Isiah Likely is no better than Hooper is, I wouldn't waste a dime on him. I like McGovern but I want Lindebaum over anyone else in free agency. OL has to be the priority this offseason. This draft is also strong at WR , and while I understand why people want Pierce a deep threat isn't going to do the any good if Maye doesn't have time to hit them.

Yeah, I initially advocated for signing a high end TE1 but after more analysis I have come off of that. I would still cut Henry and replace him with a second/third tier free agent like Otton or Okonkwo who will have a lower cap hit and also be younger and better, but also spend some draft pick(s) on the spot too. Perhaps trade up in the third/fourth with their bevy of sixths to get a guy they like. Keep Dippre around as well, and let Westover go back to TE and see if he can give you anything.

 

[reflexblue]

Some of you guys are Breaking the Rules!

The rules of sanity that is....
Carry on.

Breaking the law, breaking the law

 

[PatsFanInVa]

The "older, more expensive, worse" advocates are NOT going to be happy with this development.

Seriously, as we've seen, there's a nice little window that's open to teams if they have a SB caliber QB on a rookie contract

That allows them to spend much MUCH more instead of the $47 million they would have to pay a proven veteran QB (at least that's the QB Franchise Tag #)

I'd imagine they have a pretty clear financial gameplan for this phase and the more they can do to draft well of course will help (a rookie LT under contract who will probably be joined by another high OL draftee not only shores up the line, but fills other expensive positions with low salary guys)

Can't wait to see how much better this team gets in the offseason

Compare that to MANY of the SB teams who have to disassemble after their runs, unable to afford to keep key players

Patriots are only getting better

Shoot. And I was just about to ask what Ocho Cinco is up to these days...

 

[borisman]

Wow. I didn’t realize Sam keeping his word didn’t matter because you said so.

If you don't mind me asking, what was the bet?

 

[Ring 6]

If you don't mind me asking, what was the bet?

Sam was whining that the patriots suck and would win 4 games. I said they would make the playoffs. Sam offered the bet that if the patriots make the playoffs he would leave the site and never post again, and instead of me doing the same if they didn’t he wanted me to write a post saying something like he is a genius and knows more than me.
When the patriots made the playoffs Sam wrote a post saying “I honor my bets” and as soon as they are done playing this season I will stop posting here. He continues to post and ignores posts on asking him why.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I’m not entirely convinced WR is as big a problem for this offense as this board thinks. All the Super Bowl film breakdowns I’ve seen have shown open throws that Drake missed. He either did not see them or misfired and threw inaccurately. I’m afraid of the Randy Moss effect, where getting a major upgrade at WR1 results in our QB looking to feed him at the expense of spreading the ball around the way Maye did during the regular season. I would like to see an upgrade at WR but I think that’s secondary to fixing the OL, and a lot of that might come just from health and the second year jump.

Great point, for my money. Including the SB we had at least 3, 6-sack games (just as a proxy for how bad we were at getting the ball out/making time for same.)

Drake's not Brady (release and vision-wise.) This line's not "5 layers of protection." Drake needs a competent O-line to meet in the middle, with the goal being (1) buy enough time for (2) as many progressions as needed at a medium release speed.

We can't demand a world-beating O-line, but we can demand a good enough O-line. I mean, demand what you want, likelihood is always you're somewhere in the muddy middle.

By the same token, Drake can't hold the ball, pat the ball, pretend the mean defense will never really get him even though it does all the time, and stare at the first read in disappointment. He needs to be disciplined, see what else is there, and take what is given. If there's a blitz, he needs to realize they're not going to get the long-developing home run. Same goes for his coaching staff. Devise ways to make defenses pay for teeing off on him. If you don't show you can beat that weakness, they'll keep exploiting it.

I do think that he'll be better every game and every year. That's what we saw up to the SB meltdown -- even when protection failed the worst. I think that if you give him the same murderer's row of defenses in a year, he solves them all earlier, including that last one... especially with better protection/weapons.

But big spend on a deep threat? That's where the "cheaper" comes in. Take your shots, but you really think we'll solve the issue with long-developing deep throws?

So, awareness is partly a development issue. D DM M has the physical tools. But ultimately his job starts up front. All these great deep threat ideas and all the upgrades to his decision-making won't be enough if our boy is getting put on his ass before the receiver gets upfield.

I have an idea. Since the WR has less time to run, what if he just has to run a short route and/or screen (not only screens) that would punish the D to partially disguise the weakness of the O-line? Then what if that one guy that can get open deep is there at a decent price tag... because it's more of a "keep them honest" role than a one-man solution to the D?

By the way, maybe I'm hoping against hope, but I like Will Campbell, T-Rex arms and all, after a few more steaks, a lot of time rehabbing the leg, and time in the gym/doing the roadwork so that the steaks don't just become sumo fat. Let's see what we've got next year before declaring him a bust. Nobody needs the coveted "first to declare a bust" award.

Elsewhere along the line, agree. Cheaper, younger, better... the more realistic version of the Olympics motto. But that said, remember, we got beat in the SB by Sea teeing off on the rookie side of the line. Even if better, younger comes with inexperienced. So make sure there's a net "better" when you get younger.

Now that Cardi appears to be gone, I could part with Diggs. Just kidding. Honestly, I don't want to lose him, but if there's anything to the chef-choking story, maybe the "I love it here I love Drake" stuff comes with a dark side. You don't want him repeatedly Irving Fryaring the rest of the team w/that stuff. Or worse, Hernandezing the rest of the team. I'll leave that to those who evaluate him. But I don't like constant calls to blow up whatever we've got. Yes, get better and get cheaper. But if we have a cap problem w Diggs, isn't it subject to restructuring? He was responsible for >1,000 yards and 85 catches. I think that's something.

When we're talking about getting younger/cheaper/better, it's worth thinking about whether we have anything in Kyle Williams, who I believe is exactly the kind of guy we'd love to use a lot more if we had some protection (that deep threat everybody wants.) His skillset seems to be wasted thus far unless you count his running-down-fans capability... and again, that starts up-front. If there's time, if there's no ball-patting, does Williams become everything we're pining for in a deep threat?

Last point, I am just rooting for Efton Chism. Several reasons. (1) He's got that versatility the Pats always love, emergency QB, receiver, returner... (2) I just love rooting for the weird pedigree guy, and Eastern Michigan/UDFA is as weird as it gets. He's got "WTF" written all over him... just can't resist rooting for him to hang on (3) if anything good happens you can say he got an F-ton of yards, or catches, or looks.

Sorry to use so many pixels to say, in essence, yeah hope we get better/stronger/younger/stronger/faster/further/mejor (channeling BB, & I mean Bunny not Belichick,) but I agree the big targets are a good Oline and an improved Drake Maye. We have younger... only way to know if they're good is by cutting loose a middle guy or two from the 400-700 yard category, or as many say, your top receiver.

I think there needs to be room for new growth, but I'd keep what's working-ish. What we have could be much more, given another half-second of protection and subtracting 1 ball-pat per dropback, for example. The personnel side of that is not so much this crying need for receivers as time to get those receivers the ball.

 

[Hugepatsfan]

Great post and great idea.

I am not sold on Likely. Not a blocker, not strong on the ball, and not a great attitude.

Why not Pitts or Otten?

Why not Otton? Goes back to what I thought was the "clunkiness" of Henry/Hooper last year. Neither of them were "move" TEs and neither is Otton. All 3 of those guys belong as in-line guys and that just makes for a bit of a clunky offense IMO because you get duplicate route trees. And in the case of Henry/Hooper last year, both are still weaker blockers so you weren't even benefiting there.

Now that you mention Otton though, I am very intrigued. Not instead of Likely in my plan, but as a younger replacement for Henry. Cut Henry to have $9.25M and sign Otton for a cap hit lower than that. Gives you a better blocker for that in-line/Y s TE spot and a younger player too. On top of the Diggs thing and my Pierce/Likely ideas, you could cut Diggs/Henry to save about $30M of cap and have Pierce/Otton/Likely for probably less than that cap space.

Why not Pitts? it was primarily about cost and I kind of think they'll tag him anyway. Also, since I'm cutting Diggs to go with Pierce (downfield guy) at the X and Boutte at the Z (more of a downfield/intermediate route tree than underneath), the move TE is going to run a lot of underneath routes. In his whole career, Pitts has broken 9 tackles (1 every 31.6 receptions) and averages 4.4 YAC per reception. His average depth of target is 10.1 yards downfield. Likely has broken 15 tackles (1 every 9.0 receptions) and averages 5.5 YAC per reception. His average depth of target is 7.2 yards downfield. And then a guy like Henry (or Otton now since I liked that idea), you're talking guys who are more down the seam types. So just in building a fully complimentary route tree of skill sets, I think Likely fills in the gaps well.

Another thing I like about Likely is that he's played in 2 TE sets before. I think there's be a lot of familiarity for him coming over into the role we have him. You're right that he's a weaker blocker, but based on how I'm leaving cap space for other spots we can improve the OL. I also think I'm projecting his role as kind of a big slot as much of a move TE so there's some wiggle room for a weaker blocker there. It's certainly a weakness with him and why I'm not saying to write him a blank check, but most FAs you sign have some warts otherwise they wouldn't be FAs to begin with.

Overall though with the Otton idea, I love what our offense would be if it was Pierce at X, Boutte at Z, Otton at Y, Likely as the slot/move TE as the primary formation. Try to find a real fullback for when you want to go heavier. I think Hollins/KWilliams/Douglas/Chism give you different flavors of a 3rd receiver when you want to go to those type of formations. Draft supposedly has some good TE options so maybe you can find a good third one there to eventually replace one of Likely/Otton in the third/4th year of their deals once the cap hits get too heavy to sustain as is the case with most contracts. And all of this would come from cap space form cutting Diggs/Henry so it doesn't take away from our ability to add 2 OL starters and a starting DE along with retaining or replacing guys like Hawkins/Chaisson. And I think at the skill positions we get younger and better or at least better-fitting. I think all the pieces here work well together.

 

[Real fan 02]

Pats may take the dead cap hit at $7.5M and release Moses early. Henry's is larger at $12.5M. If Henry stays, it will be his last.

They have outs with:

Diggs. It's as clear as day he either takes a pay cut or he's cut. Decent season when you look at the stat sheet, but not when you look deeper at the games he collected his yardage. Had a lot of no shows throughout the season. He has the Jakobi Meyers disease and can't shake man coverage.
Bradberry. Could be replaced with Linderbaum.
Hollins. Need a veteran somewhere. Made some clutch catches throughout the season.
Tavai. Played decent at times, but his limitations showed when players went to the outside.
Hooper is a FA. Needs to be replaced.

I believe that the guys who are here the veterans will all be given ample opportunities to remain. Diggs isn't going anywhere IMO.. his value goes beyond the field.. Tavai... I believe could move on unless he remains on a veteran minimum.. same with Hooper... Gibbens..

Hollins is under contract and I can even see them giving him an extra year..

Bradbury is under contract as well and I can see them signing a C to compete with him in camp.

With 40 plus million in cap space.. Vrabel should start with extending Gonzo in my opinion..