How much longer will you drink the BB kool-aid?

[signbabybrady]

You're no day at the beach tough guy.

It really is interesting how you and others, like @One-If-By-Sea, become so touchy when it comes to Bill. Fans here can criticize the owner as well as any player or any other coach. But damn, don't talk negative about Bill or there'll be hell to pay for sure. Bill has trained you well.

I think you'd have to admit people go at BB in a different way than they do Kraft or TB. Kraft probably got it the worst of the 3 for a few years during deflategate but BB gets treated in way that doesn't line up with a 6x champ and definitely getting it worse than Kraft right now. He earns some of it but for a guy like me on a site like this it's hard to swallow sometimes.

 

[State]

You say that, but none of us - and I was there in 2000 - would have predicted Brady being the starter that early. Bledsoe was the prototypical franchise guy, albeit he was flawed but back then, he was an upper echelon QB. Credit Belichick for keeping Brady on the roster and having the guts to stick to the decision when Bledsoe was healthy. That in and of itself was bigger than people realize and he doesn’t get enough credit for that. Especially given how contentious those press conferences were. They were crazy intense - it’s definitely sort of wild looking back on it.

True. Very true.

But cut it out, Ian. That was last century. (The 21st century began in 2001, because of…math.)

Let’s start looking at the more recent past sans Brady.

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

im done if he trades for lamar

 

[Ian]

True. Very true.

But cut it out, Ian. That was last century. (The 21st century began in 2001, because of…math.)

Let’s start looking at the more recent past sans Brady.

It's been three years. Three. One was the year they didn't have a QB (the Cam Newton year), and let's be honest, had Newton played at a better level down the stretch, they were competitive that year and certainly could have flipped a handful of those games. He completely lost it, and only he knows why.

Then they drafted Mac and won 10 games the next year - which was pretty solid for a team with a rookie QB. Obviously, last year was tough after McDaniels poached the staff, and Bill clearly made an error with Patricia, but even still, they were in most every game last year, and several of those could also have been flipped.

Obviously, this will be a key season from top to bottom, both for Bill and for Jones. But people who want to lose it without taking into account the context are just short-sighted. Everyone who wants Bill gone forgets that it's not like there are competent Super Bowl-caliber coaches sitting out there right now looking for a job. You still have to replace him. As I've said, people should revel in the fact that he's under pressure for the first time in 20+ years. So just let it play out.

 

[signbabybrady]

It's been three years. Three. One was the year they didn't have a QB (the Cam Newton year), and let's be honest, had Newton played at a better level down the stretch, they were competitive that year and certainly could have flipped a handful of those games. He completely lost it, and only he knows why.

Then they drafted Mac and won 10 games the next year - which was pretty solid for a team with a rookie QB. Obviously, last year was tough after McDaniels poached the staff, and Bill clearly made an error with Patricia, but even still, they were in most every game last year, and several of those could also have been flipped.

Obviously, this will be a key season from top to bottom, both for Bill and for Jones. But people who want to lose it without taking into account the context are just short-sighted. Everyone who wants Bill gone forgets that it's not like there are competent Super Bowl-caliber coaches sitting out there right now looking for a job. You still have to replace him. As I've said, people should revel in the fact that he's under pressure for the first time in 20+ years. So just let it play out.

He runs the site and he's the site's best poster.

 

[Triumph]

im done if he trades for lamar

The Pats cant afford Lamar without blowing up the whole team.

 

[Triumph]

It's been three years. Three. One was the year they didn't have a QB (the Cam Newton year), and let's be honest, had Newton played at a better level down the stretch, they were competitive that year and certainly could have flipped a handful of those games. He completely lost it, and only he knows why.

Then they drafted Mac and won 10 games the next year - which was pretty solid for a team with a rookie QB. Obviously, last year was tough after McDaniels poached the staff, and Bill clearly made an error with Patricia, but even still, they were in most every game last year, and several of those could also have been flipped.

Obviously, this will be a key season from top to bottom, both for Bill and for Jones. But people who want to lose it without taking into account the context are just short-sighted. Everyone who wants Bill gone forgets that it's not like there are competent Super Bowl-caliber coaches sitting out there right now looking for a job. You still have to replace him. As I've said, people should revel in the fact that he's under pressure for the first time in 20+ years. So just let it play out.

Fact # 1 - BB had no solid plan post Brady. Stidham was scheduled to take over and the Pats had to get Cam in the 11th hour.
Fact # 2 - The 2021 10 win season sounds good until you peel back the onion. Then you will find 2 huge wins vs the Jets mired in QB trouble. A Cleveland win where Mayfield was hurt. And, a Jaguars win vs a team adrift with no coach because Meyer got fired.

4 wins vs the worst teams in 2021.

Jags 3 - 14
Jets 4 - 13
Browns 8 - 9

Dont forget W vs the Panthers 5 - 12 and that big Buffalo Bills win where the Pats up and coming QB threw 3 passes all night. New England Patriots at Buffalo Bills - December 6th, 2021 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

A whole lot of smoke and mirrors when you get down to the facts.

Fact # 3 - Patricia and Judge did not throw all those 11 INTs. In the Miami game Parker was open for a TD, but the pass was too short. This happened time and time again throughout then 22 season. BOB wont take the fall for Jones mistakes. Get ready for fireworks on the NE sideline. Any QB coach with the stones to call out the GOAT will have no problem ripping any NE QB who doesn't follow orders.

 

[Ian]

Fact # 1 - BB had no solid plan post Brady. Stidham was scheduled to take over and the Pats had to get Cam in the 11th hour.
Fact # 2 - The 2021 10 win season sounds good until you peel back the onion. Then you will find 2 huge wins vs the Jets mired in QB trouble. A Cleveland win where Mayfield was hurt. And, a Jaguars win vs a team adrift with no coach because Meyer got fired.

4 wins vs the worst teams in 2021.

Jags 3 - 14
Jets 4 - 13
Browns 8 - 9

Dont forget W vs the Panthers 5 - 12 and that big Buffalo Bills win where the Pats up and coming QB threw 3 passes all night. New England Patriots at Buffalo Bills - December 6th, 2021 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

A whole lot of smoke and mirrors when you get down to the facts.

Fact # 3 - Patricia and Judge did not throw all those 11 INTs. In the Miami game Parker was open for a TD, but the pass was too short. This happened time and time again throughout then 22 season. BOB wont take the fall for Jones mistakes. Get ready for fireworks on the NE sideline. Any QB coach with the stones to call out the GOAT will have no problem ripping any NE QB who doesn't follow orders.

Fact #1 - No one has a solid plan losing the greatest QB of all time. Tampa Bay knew they only had Brady for, at most, three seasons. Watch what happens there this year despite getting lucky with Mayfield being available. And it's not as if they didn't keep drafting guys behind Brady over the years. Stidham simply crumbled under the pressure and didn't push Cam the same way Mac did. He also clearly did/said something that must have irked the coaches because the fact he didn't play at all despite how badly things went down the stretch was pretty telling.

Fact #2 - Any season can be negatively dissected when that's what you're looking for. And good teams are supposed to beat up on bad teams, not eek out wins. They didn't win those games 13-10 or 14-13 - they went over 40+ multiple times in that season and hit 50 twice, including the games you mentioned. All you can do is play who is on the schedule.

Fact #3 - You don't like Mac, so we don't need to get into that. Although I will say that you're right in the fact it's a big year for him, so he'll ultimately set his own future this year and at least has a capable person guiding him this time around compared to the mess they had last year.

 

[Wozzy]

Fact # 1 - BB had no solid plan post Brady. Stidham was scheduled to take over and the Pats had to get Cam in the 11th hour.

Sure he did, reset the cap and rebuild. The plan was going swimmingly until McDaniels left and BB made the wrong choice at coordinator. But the plan remains the same and moves forward.

Fact # 2 - The 2021 10 win season sounds good until you peel back the onion. Then you will find 2 huge wins vs the Jets mired in QB trouble. A Cleveland win where Mayfield was hurt. And, a Jaguars win vs a team adrift with no coach because Meyer got fired.

Making the playoffs one year removed from your reset year with a rookie QB is good, no matter how you want to dissect it.

Fact # 3 - Patricia and Judge did not throw all those 11 INTs. In the Miami game Parker was open for a TD, but the pass was too short. This happened time and time again throughout then 22 season. BOB wont take the fall for Jones mistakes. Get ready for fireworks on the NE sideline. Any QB coach with the stones to call out the GOAT will have no problem ripping any NE QB who doesn't follow orders.

The scheme was sht, the execution was sht.... they ended the season near dead last in pre-snap penalties. They couldn't line up under center and snap the ball without incurring a penalty.

You suggesting coaching wasn't a factor a season removed from being one of the least penalized teams in the league in 2021 with the same exact QB and almost the same group of players around him is a garbage take. They went from 6th in scoring to 25th, that wasn't coincidental.

 

[50-yard-line]

Fact # 1 - BB had no solid plan post Brady. Stidham was scheduled to take over and the Pats had to get Cam in the 11th hour.

When he tried to make that plan (Jimmy G), it caused a s***storm. He looked at the spread sheet, the aging vets, the lack of $ and talent, and knew he'd have to start from scratch.

Fact # 2 - The 2021 10 win season sounds good until you peel back the onion. Then you will find 2 huge wins vs the Jets mired in QB trouble. A Cleveland win where Mayfield was hurt. And, a Jaguars win vs a team adrift with no coach because Meyer got fired.

You make excuses for other teams, but ignore the issues your own team has to face - like Cam's disintegration post his COVID absence.

Dont forget W vs the Panthers 5 - 12 and that big Buffalo Bills win where the Pats up and coming QB threw 3 passes all night. New England Patriots at Buffalo Bills - December 6th, 2021 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Testament to great coaching, right there.

 

[Wozzy]

I love the notion that Cam was actually "the plan" to replace anyone... they paid him 500K guaranteed to be the bridge guy.

The rookie they planned on drafting after that down year in 2020 was "the plan."

Cam could have been a cardboard cutout if it were within the rules.

They could have paid Ryan Fitzpatrick or Andy Dalton, but they were too expensive.

 

[Wozzy]

The Arizona Cardinals haven’t won a ring since winning the NFL championship in 1947, the longest championship drought at 75 years.

The Lions have the second-longest NFL championship drought at 65 years, followed by the Vikings (62), Browns (58), Titans (57), and Falcons (57).

Twelve NFL teams have never won a Super Bowl: Arizona Cardinals, Atlanta Falcons, Buffalo Bills, Carolina Panthers, Cincinnati Bengals, Cleveland Browns, Detroit Lions, Houston Texans, Jacksonville Jaguars, Los Angeles Chargers, Minnesota Vikings, and Tennessee Titans.

Only four active NFL teams have never appeared in a Super Bowl: Cleveland Browns, Detroit Lions, Jacksonville Jaguars, and Houston Texans.

It took the Philadelphia Eagles 48 years to win one Super Bowl.

You've had to wait four whole years since your last Super Bowl parade... boy, I don't know how you people make it through the day.

 

[FCB02062]

Why would anyone still "believe" in this coach? Let's examine his record vs quarterbacks who "don't suck", and believe me, I stretched credulity by including Matt Ryan, Derek Carr and Carson Wentz...1-1 vs Ryan, 1-1 vs Care, 0-1 vs Wentz.... anyway, here's Bill the Coach vs QBs vs non suck QBs and Rookies (this is an embarrassment):

 

[captain stone]

Bump.

Haven't taken a sip of that sewage since February 2018.

 

[Real fan 02]

I’m curious why you would label that arrogance.

In my opinion from a coaching aspect it may have came off as arrogance.. I honestly believe BB thought those guys coach offense.. however training camp should have shown that it wasn't going to work out.. that's the time of year that a team takes shape..

 

[203Pat]

It's been three years. Three. One was the year they didn't have a QB (the Cam Newton year), and let's be honest, had Newton played at a better level down the stretch, they were competitive that year and certainly could have flipped a handful of those games. He completely lost it, and only he knows why.

Then they drafted Mac and won 10 games the next year - which was pretty solid for a team with a rookie QB. Obviously, last year was tough after McDaniels poached the staff, and Bill clearly made an error with Patricia, but even still, they were in most every game last year, and several of those could also have been flipped.

Obviously, this will be a key season from top to bottom, both for Bill and for Jones. But people who want to lose it without taking into account the context are just short-sighted. Everyone who wants Bill gone forgets that it's not like there are competent Super Bowl-caliber coaches sitting out there right now looking for a job. You still have to replace him. As I've said, people should revel in the fact that he's under pressure for the first time in 20+ years. So just let it play out.

Yes and he had Cam Newton because he ran Brady out of town without bothering to have a succession plan. Why should 2020 not be a strike against him when he bungled the most important position on the team? I will give him credit for the 10 win season but we weren't a real competitor down the stretch and got depantsed by the Bills in the playoffs. Last year was his second most egregious decision and basically wasted a crucial year of Mac's development because of a lack of foresight once again. For me it is time to take the keys away from grandpa. I would be fine with BOB taking over. I wouldn't mind Mayo taking over as he seems to be very well respected as long as he brings in a seasoned OC. At this point I want a real GM and ideally an offensive minded head coach.

 

[Boomer B]

Brady was demanding $25m per year, there was already money deferred from previous restructures, and he was 42. Eventually that cap bill comes due, and paying him $25m inhibits you from building up the rest of the roster. It was a blessing that Tom chose to leave when he did, allowing BB to blow it up the following season, then draft Mac and have some cap space.

The only way this could have been different is if we had drafted better from 2017-19. We didn't, but we're drafting better recently.

Paying a top QB mid-tier QB money inhibits from building the rest of the roster? $25m for Brady was a bargain. How have the Chiefs, Bills, Packers, Cowboys, etc.. all somehow survived paying QBs a whole lot more than $25m per year?

A blessing that he let Tom leave? You've enjoyed our 3 years of being mediocre? How did all that cap space serve us? All those playoff wins it brought.

 

[Boomer B]

There are many key facts and factors about what happened, but one of the key ones is that after our last SB win against the Rams in 2018, Kraft & BB negotiated with TB, and a key demand that Tom made in order to return in 2019 was that he not be tagged after 2019 - he wanted the flexibility to go elsewhere. Kraft publicly acknowledged that the team gave in on that point, that it was the least they could do after 18 stellar years of service. Following that, Brady played 2019 and left town immediately after. The team did not make the decision to let Brady go, Brady made the decision to leave, and it was driven by the state of the roster after 2019 (which was not good), and who knows what else (Giselle? the Dolphins thing?). It was NOT due to how much we were paying/not paying him.

Coincidentally, this was a good thing for the Patriots, even though TB was able to win another ring with a loaded Bucs team. It allowed BB to straighten things out with the cap and roster (the Cam/Covid year), then move forward with drafting Mac and spending on FA's. Also they seem to have fixed their drafting process which had yielded poor drafts in 2017-19.

He wanted the flexibility to go elsewhere because THEY WOULDN'T GIVE HIM A 2 YEAR DEAL! He tried to get the 2 year deal after 2017. He tried again after 2018. They wouldn't do it. Only then did he ask for the no tag. All we had to do is treat Tom Brady, the GOAT, the same as the Saints treated Drew Brees. Tom leaves and we've been mediocre for 3 years. Great job Bob and Bill.

 

[Boomer B]

yeah because then the next year they need cap space so they convert half of his $25m salary to a bonus and extend his years by 1 or 2, so now you've pushed $12.5m of cap hit from the current year to a future year. It's like borrowing against your house to go on vacation.

This is why BB is pretty careful about doing that and about overpaying players in general. The cap is what you owe, it's just a question of whether you settle that each year, or instead set yourself up for a bad future year where it's impossible to do it.

Careful about not overpaying players? How do you explain Jonnu Smith and Agholor?

 

[Ring 6]

In my opinion from a coaching aspect it may have came off as arrogance.. I honestly believe BB thought those guys coach offense.. however training camp should have shown that it wasn't going to work out.. that's the time of year that a team takes shape..

I still don’t see how you get arrogance.