Game Day Thread Official Post Game Thread- Pats beat Arizona

[Jim Beankie]

But who's fault is that? All these former players including former QBs are saying it is the play calling first and foremost.

I just showed you a red zone pass that should at least been a first down at the two yard line, but probably would have been a TD if the receiver didn't accidentally step out of bounds because of lack of awareness. But you seem want to blame everything on Jones and because of Jones they cannot get the end zone in the red zone.

LOL! And now you are just using bias speculation as proof of something. I showed you a play in red zone where Jones put Thornton in position to score a TD, but instead he stepped out of bounds before converting the first down. Look! That's a TD if Thornton doesn't step out of bounds.

View attachment 48236

To be fair to Thornton, imho that pass was a pinch late with all of TT's momentum sending him to the sideline. Plus it looked like a slow-ish throw. Calcs put it around 45mph to be conservative. If Mac's gonna be the guy for the next few years, he and TT need as much experience as possible to get the timing right.

 

[SVN]

They scored twice from the red zone. One was a three yard run right after a 39 pass play to Henry. The other was a 14 yard run. One field goal was off a third down play where Jones connected with Thornton, but Thornton stupidly stepped out of bounds at the four yard line before he picked up the first down.

Come on! Blame this play on Jones. It was clearly Jones' fault that Thornton couldn't see the first down marker right in front of him.



You can spin it any way you want for your agenda against Jones. You just make yourself look foolish.

I dont blame jones for any of the stuff going on with offensive scheme and other players.
But the whole issue as i have seen in the last 3 weeks is that jones as a leader and a captain and bourne and some others dont want to accept what the offense is and work through it at all . this started in the raiders preseason game and gone all season. Its okay to disagree and criticize coaching. Do it privately and come to a solution. Dont openly pout and yell every game when things are going well. MP is calling a very basic offense , its bad non creative and all that. but are you guys executing any of it ? False start , delay of game, easy catch drops, holds - MP isnt expecting this .
these offensive skill players have had an easy way out because MP can be blamed for everything but they are getting a free pass for all the dumb mistakes they are doing. This is also goes back to leadership. Edelman on this team wont this nonsense with the players go on. Right now these players want all the glory and none of the criticisms or accountability.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Great speed:

There's a lot to get on Patricia ab and this is one of them. I don't have stats in front if me but we've been too inconsistent with using motion this year imo. We'll use it and inexplicably go away from it.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

But don't you think Jones may have regressed because of #1 and #2 more so than himself? Don't you think that maybe if McDaniels and his offense stayed, that maybe we are talking about Jones making that next level rather than him regressing?

We have seen a lot of bad teams ruin young QBs with poor coaching and horrendous offensive lines. The Pats are following the "Bad Teams Destroying Young QBs" playbook to a T. Year #2 - Downgrade the coaching staff, change the offense (preferably to a system that doesn't play to the strengths of the QB or the other offensive players), give subpar talent around him, put him in positions for him to fail and have undo pressure on him. Tell me of these things, what didn't the Patriots do to Jones?

This is why I defend him and excuse him for some of the stuff he did. A second year QB needs to be nurtured. Even Brady and Manning needed hand holding and their OCs to put them in positions to succeed when they were young. Belichick did everything possible to set Jones up to fail.

i agree on that, my impression is/was that you can expect pocket movement/speed up your reads/progressions despite all the surrounding offense issues.

 

[PScottman]

He must have PTSD as he gets a ton of time to throw, gets happy feet too fast, and then goes backward right into the pass rush.

Onwenu knocks his guy down, Trent is holding up, even McDermott holds his block. Time to step up and throw Mac, even a tough throw into the end zone. No time to wait for guys to come loose. Not going to happen. Instead Mac gets jittery and kills the play just when the OL is doing its job. Step up and throw.

This is my worry about Mac, either he's been so impacted by what's gone on with the offense and OL that he can't do what QBs need to do when the opportunity presents itself, or else he's checked out mentally.

This is the one area that he has regressed the most. Mac rarely if ever steps up anymore...same with sideways slides/shuffles. He always goes backwards with either a back pedal or worse a turn and run.

I was just thinking that next camp when they have that drill with the padded poles that they hold up to simulate linemen hands...they should just randomly bop him in the face "See it doesn't hurt...stop retreating!"

 

[SlowGettingUp]

i agree on that, my impression is/was that you can expect pocket movement/speed up your reads/progressions despite all the surrounding offense issues.

And there you have the difference between an experienced defensive coach and an experienced OC. The experienced OC can see a play through the eyes of his QB and understand how movement might make the QB reads easier. The experienced defensive coach looks at that same movement and thinks first about how the defense will react. He might understand in theory how it might help the QB, but it's not his first instinctive thought.

 

[venecol]

Mac Jones regular stats:

Rating: #25
QBR: #28
Y/G: #21
Y/A: #14
TDs: #30 tie
INT: #12 tie
Sacks: #15 tie

We can acknowledge the OL issues, despite the fact there are many atrocious OLs in the league that are worse than ours. We can acknowledge the conservative play calls, despite the fact this seems to be a reaction to the TO worthy plays by Mac.

We can acknowledge all of the above and still recognize the fact our QB is playing poorly, well below league average. Good QBs transcend these challenges. It is what it is.

 

[italian pat patriot]

Pierre Strong had a strong game
We are still alive...
This is the important point...

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

watching the game in relive (did not watch it last night) i noticed we used uche more on early downs than i ever saw in this season. i like that, i think we can use him there with his speed

 

[Vindicate]

I had to look this up. Too lazy to find the overall stats, but it seems like it's been easier (2021 did have a dip which is what you probably have noticed). Red Zone conversions (TD only) for the Pats:

2022: 38.89% (Dead Last - would be 2nd worst over the last 6 years)
2021: 63.08% (7th)
2020: 54.17% (24th)
2019: 49.21% (26th)
2018: 62.86% (12th)
2017: 62.65% (3rd)
----
2007: 70.24% (only 2nd!?)

Looking through the list since 2003, last year was historically good for the Pats (not sure why my memory doesn't jive with it...)
Funny that Cam with way worse receivers got it done better than the GOAT the year before.

NFL Football Stats - NFL Team Red Zone Scoring Percentage (TD only) | TeamRankings.com

NFL Football red zone scoring percentage (td only), by team.

www.teamrankings.com

EDIT: Note that this doesn't include last night's game, I'm guessing, as Pats were 2 for 4 in the AZ RZ for TDs, with one of the attempts the kneel down drive at the very end of the game. I wonder if that gets included in the official stats.

Oh that's an awesome breakdown. I appreciate the data. I was trying to speak more towards passing plays, but I definitely wasn't that specific in my language. However, those stats are interesting in and of themselves. I wonder if 2007 was 2nd because they probably scored so much from outside the redzone.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

Mac Jones regular stats:

Rating: #25
QBR: #28
Y/G: #21
Y/A: #14
TDs: #30 tie
INT: #12 tie
Sacks: #15 tie

We can acknowledge the OL issues, despite the fact there are many atrocious OLs in the league that are worse than ours. We can acknowledge the conservative play calls, despite the fact this seems to be a reaction to the TO worthy plays by Mac.

We can acknowledge all of the above and still recognize the fact our QB is playing poorly, well below league average. Good QBs transcend these challenges. It is what it is.

Nah citation needed mothafugga

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

But don't you think Jones may have regressed because of #1 and #2 more so than himself? Don't you think that maybe if McDaniels and his offense stayed, that maybe we are talking about Jones making that next level rather than him regressing?

In some respects, sure but you've been ignoring when Mac has been a part of the problem or slight regression. You've become very sensitive with respect. You accused me recently of misrepresenting a quote from Waldman when I specifically, quite specifically actually. Said it was bc of the certain topics at hand. Post snap processing to be exact I believe. If you bothered to actually read his stuff you'd know how indepth he goes with specific traits, strengths and weaknesses etc. For instance he had Mac as a Star when handling pressure. Speaks for itself, the highest category one can get from him. Committee for decision making which is about average.

So yes I'm well aware he was high on Mac but that's the headline. Details matter and some of the stuff he and I talked about predraft have shown themselves to be problematic.

I'm sorry but there's stuff you can isolate to look at how a player is performing individually. Its how scouts make a living.

Blaming everything on Patricia just sounds like a casual fan Rob. Play calling has been a problem for Herbert since he entered the league. It's been a work in progress in Buffalo all year. There's more than a few examples you can point to but its not a end all, be all excuse for Mac.

What about his inconsistencies with his release point that's been an issue since college?

Multiple TO worthy plays for half the season

Opening up late, late coming off his first read?

Deer in a headlights when faced with sudden pressure. Or lack of ID when faced with second level pressure.

Inconsistent stepping up or manipulating a pocket.

Honestly I could go on but I truthfully believe Mac is a good QB. Just not a special one. He's a lot better than he's shown this and obviously could be better with a better OL and OC but he's had his fair share of struggles that's soley on him.

We have seen a lot of bad teams ruin young QBs with poor coaching and horrendous offensive lines. The Pats are following the "Bad Teams Destroying Young QBs" playbook to a T. Year #2 - Downgrade the coaching staff, change the offense (preferably to a system that doesn't play to the strengths of the QB or the other offensive players), give subpar talent around him, put him in positions for him to fail and have undo pressure on him. Tell me of these things, what didn't the Patriots do to Jones?

This is why I defend him and excuse him for some of the stuff he did. A second year QB needs to be nurtured. Even Brady and Manning needed hand holding and their OCs to put them in positions to succeed when they were young. Belichick did everything possible to set Jones up to fail.

This has been an organizational failure but sometimes you can see greatness or really F'n good through a ****tshow. Manning is perhaps the best example of that? His rookie season was trash but you walked away knowing hes going to be a problem and QB who could win SB's.

Recently Joe Brady Burrow got killed behind a horrendous OL but showed a ton of poise, didn't get rattled and showed he could manipulate/recreate a pocket at times.

Sometimes you can see some good in a cluster.

I definitely believe Mac can be better but at the same time he's exactly who some of us thought he was in college. Not a knock. He's a baker, not a chief as a smart man once said.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

In some respects, sure but you've been ignoring when Mac has been a part of the problem or slight regression. You've become very sensitive with respect. You accused me recently of misrepresenting a quote from Waldman when I specifically, quite specifically actually. Said it was bc of the certain topics at hand. Post snap processing to be exact I believe. If you bothered to actually read his stuff you'd know how indepth he goes with specific traits, strengths and weaknesses etc. For instance he had Mac as a Star when handling pressure. Speaks for itself, the highest category one can get from him. Committee for decision making which is about average.

So yes I'm well aware he was high on Mac but that's the headline. Details matter and some of the stuff he and I talked about predraft have shown themselves to be problematic.

I'm sorry but there's stuff you can isolate to look at how a player is performing individually. Its how scouts make a living.

Blaming everything on Patricia just sounds like a casual fan Rob. Play calling has been a problem for Herbert since he entered the league. It's been a work in progress in Buffalo all year. There's more than a few examples you can point to but its not a end all, be all excuse for Mac.

What about his inconsistencies with his release point that's been an issue since college?

Multiple TO worthy plays for half the season

Opening up late, late coming off his first read?

Deer in a headlights when faced with sudden pressure. Or lack of ID when faced with second level pressure.

Inconsistent stepping up or manipulating a pocket.

Honestly I could go on but I truthfully believe Mac is a good QB. Just not a special one. He's a lot better than he's shown this and obviously could be better with a better OL and OC but he's had his fair share of struggles that's soley on him.

This has been an organizational failure but sometimes you can see greatness or really F'n good through a ****tshow. Manning is perhaps the best example of that? His rookie season was trash but you walked away knowing hes going to be a problem and QB who could win SB's.

Recently Joe Brady Burrow got killed behind a horrendous OL but showed a ton of poise, didn't get rattled and showed he could manipulate/recreate a pocket at times.

Sometimes you can see some good in a cluster.

I definitely believe Mac can be better but at the same time he's exactly who some of us thought he was in college. Not a knock. He's a baker, not a chief as a smart man once said.

bingpot !!

you know we talked pre draft about mac and i wasn't high on him nor did i want the pats to draft him because i always had the feeling watching him that mac is never going to be elite. I believe with a strong supporting cast from OC; O-Line and WR he can play good to above average but i think his issues haven't really improved in areas where you can expect improvement despite the invorenment and situation the pats have put in him.

- pocket movement
- speed of his progressions
- arm strength (the screen passes thrown from mac yesterday look awful slow)

I value these characteristics are really valuable and we need to pursuit a qb who has this.

Also mac has an attitude issue imo. Look how often burrow is sacked, if he would have the same attitude he would be screaming to his o-line non-stop 24 hours.

 

[Sfpat]

But who's fault is that? All these former players including former QBs are saying it is the play calling first and foremost.

I just showed you a red zone pass that should at least been a first down at the two yard line, but probably would have been a TD if the receiver didn't accidentally step out of bounds because of lack of awareness. But you seem want to blame everything on Jones and because of Jones they cannot get the end zone in the red zone.

LOL! And now you are just using bias speculation as proof of something. I showed you a play in red zone where Jones put Thornton in position to score a TD, but instead he stepped out of bounds before converting the first down. Look! That's a TD if Thornton doesn't step out of bounds.

View attachment 48236

I think Jones was a half second late in throwing that ball. By time Thornton caught it, he didn't have room to turn upfield without going out of bounds. A fraction of a second sooner and Thornton would have scored

 

[p8ryts]

watching the game in relive (did not watch it last night) i noticed we used uche more on early downs than i ever saw in this season. i like that, i think we can use him there with his speed

He has improved setting the edge and tackling. Looking like an NFL player.

 

[Toofy]

In some respects, sure but you've been ignoring when Mac has been a part of the problem or slight regression. You've become very sensitive with respect. You accused me recently of misrepresenting a quote from Waldman when I specifically, quite specifically actually. Said it was bc of the certain topics at hand. Post snap processing to be exact I believe. If you bothered to actually read his stuff you'd know how indepth he goes with specific traits, strengths and weaknesses etc. For instance he had Mac as a Star when handling pressure. Speaks for itself, the highest category one can get from him. Committee for decision making which is about average.

So yes I'm well aware he was high on Mac but that's the headline. Details matter and some of the stuff he and I talked about predraft have shown themselves to be problematic.

I'm sorry but there's stuff you can isolate to look at how a player is performing individually. Its how scouts make a living.

Blaming everything on Patricia just sounds like a casual fan Rob. Play calling has been a problem for Herbert since he entered the league. It's been a work in progress in Buffalo all year. There's more than a few examples you can point to but its not a end all, be all excuse for Mac.

What about his inconsistencies with his release point that's been an issue since college?

Multiple TO worthy plays for half the season

Opening up late, late coming off his first read?

Deer in a headlights when faced with sudden pressure. Or lack of ID when faced with second level pressure.

Inconsistent stepping up or manipulating a pocket.

Honestly I could go on but I truthfully believe Mac is a good QB. Just not a special one. He's a lot better than he's shown this and obviously could be better with a better OL and OC but he's had his fair share of struggles that's soley on him.

This has been an organizational failure but sometimes you can see greatness or really F'n good through a ****tshow. Manning is perhaps the best example of that? His rookie season was trash but you walked away knowing hes going to be a problem and QB who could win SB's.

Recently Joe Brady Burrow got killed behind a horrendous OL but showed a ton of poise, didn't get rattled and showed he could manipulate/recreate a pocket at times.

Sometimes you can see some good in a cluster.

I definitely believe Mac can be better but at the same time he's exactly who some of us thought he was in college. Not a knock. He's a baker, not a chief as a smart man once said.

Great balanced post. I also feel mac is probably not the answer at franchise QB . He cannot elevate others without a solid line. But will keep us competitive for couple of seasons . Same goes with Zappe as well unless he turns out be similar to burrow.

I was seeing some Goff throws in the game against vikings and boy ! They did have a zing to them and he looked super accurate . I couldn't fathom why he is in not in the same time as Allen, mahomes and burrow . Very intriguing prospect . I would definitely resign him to performance based contracts which are backloaded. We might benefit from Kyler Murray, Watson and Wilson contracts . Everybody will be leery about signing big contracts till you show the arm of Josh Allen or mahomes.



I think we should take some outside shots at lower round QB with low floor but high potential and get them into a 2 year training and see how it works. Invest a 4th or 5th rounder towards it every alternate year .

@BCG, I have a question for you . Looks like most of the offensive lines are decimated by injuries leave apart few like eagles and cowboys . Can the QB overcome it or is it more dependent on playcalling . If there is no protection, then the only option is screen or handoffs which is what Patricia is doing . What more do you think Patricia can bring in.

 

[crawhammer]

Mac Jones regular stats:

Rating: #25
QBR: #28
Y/G: #21
Y/A: #14
TDs: #30 tie
INT: #12 tie
Sacks: #15 tie

We can acknowledge the OL issues, despite the fact there are many atrocious OLs in the league that are worse than ours. We can acknowledge the conservative play calls, despite the fact this seems to be a reaction to the TO worthy plays by Mac.

We can acknowledge all of the above and still recognize the fact our QB is playing poorly, well below league average. Good QBs transcend these challenges. It is what it is.

Remember that horrible season by Cam in 2020?

Cam Newton in 2020:

368 attempts
8 TDs
2.2 TD%
10 INTs
2.7 INT%
7.2 Y/A
177 Y/G
82.9 passer rating

Mac Jones in 2022:

305 attempts
7 TDs
2.3 TD%
8 INTs
2.6 INT%
7.2 Y/A
220 Y/G
85.7 passer rating

Oh wait, I forgot...

Cam... 592 rushing yards & 12 TDs
Mac... 87 rushing yards & 1 TD

Now you tell me who had the better season?

 

[ashley]

Remember that horrible season by Cam in 2020?

Cam Newton in 2020:

368 attempts
8 TDs
2.2 TD%
10 INTs
2.7 INT%
7.2 Y/A
177 Y/G
82.9 passer rating

Mac Jones in 2022:

305 attempts
7 TDs
2.3 TD%
8 INTs
2.6 INT%
7.2 Y/A
220 Y/G
85.7 passer rating

Oh wait, I forgot...

Cam... 592 rushing yards & 12 TDs
Mac... 87 rushing yards & 1 TD

Now you tell me who had the better season?

I get what you're saying, but the only thing you're not accounting for is that Cam had the better O-line in 2020. This O-line is not giving Mac any time at all. You saw that throw to Hunter that Mac made last night, not sure that Cam could have ever made that throw in 2020.

 

[crawhammer]

I get what you're saying, but the only thing you're not accounting for is that Cam had the better O-line in 2020. This O-line is not giving Mac any time at all. You saw that throw to Hunter that Mac made last night, not sure that Cam could have ever made that throw in 2020.

Cam's arm was washed by 2020. But I'm not sure that helps the overall argument for Mac. I'm just trying to add a little perspective to what we're getting out of the quarterback position this season.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Mac Jones regular stats:

Rating: #25
QBR: #28
Y/G: #21
Y/A: #14
TDs: #30 tie
INT: #12 tie
Sacks: #15 tie

We can acknowledge the OL issues, despite the fact there are many atrocious OLs in the league that are worse than ours. We can acknowledge the conservative play calls, despite the fact this seems to be a reaction to the TO worthy plays by Mac.

We can acknowledge all of the above and still recognize the fact our QB is playing poorly, well below league average. Good QBs transcend these challenges. It is what it is.

except in the case of Brady, it's "blame everyone else"...