MNF 12/12 Pre-game thread: Pats @ Arizona

[RobertWeathers]

what a joke

I've learned you a) need to read between the lines with BB and b) he will lie

Hes happy with the playcalling system
Hes happy with Fat Matt

That does not mean hes happy with Fat Matt calling plays.

 

[captain stone]

Are you at the point you want to fire BB?

if he's not willing to accept Major, Significant organizational changes, then ownership has no choice but to fire him.

 

[Ross12]

Breer: Why Patriots passed on two strong candidates for OC job

Why is Matt Patricia calling plays for the Patriots this season instead of Bill O’Brien or Nick Caley? Albert Breer broke it all down Sunday on Patriots Pregame Live.

www.nbcsports.com

I seem to recall before the season that it was widely reported that Bill O'Brien was unavailable because he gives "two year commitments" - i.e. he will always stay at a job he takes for a minimum of two years. He had only been at Alabama for one season prior to 2022, so he would not bolt to go to New England. However, in 2023 he would have met his "two year" rule. This is, of course, a self-imposed rule and I don't believe it's actually legally binding in any way, but I have to imagine it helps him sell himself a bit. I would hope he would also give the Patriots at least a 2 year commitment as an OC.

 

[RobertWeathers]

if he's not willing to accept Major, Significant organizational changes, then ownership has no choice but to fire him.

No question.

 

[turkeyneck]

Agreed... I'd wait until Black Monday to fire him.

I'm ready to fast-forward the rest of the season to get there ASAP!

 

[Sicilian]

I seem to recall before the season that it was widely reported that Bill O'Brien was unavailable because he gives "two year commitments" - i.e. he will always stay at a job he takes for a minimum of two years. He had only been at Alabama for one season prior to 2022, so he would not bolt to go to New England. However, in 2023 he would have met his "two year" rule. This is, of course, a self-imposed rule and I don't believe it's actually legally binding in any way, but I have to imagine it helps him sell himself a bit. I would hope he would also give the Patriots at least a 2 year commitment as an OC.

O'Brien may not be a the best option out there, but at this point I would LOVE two years of him as OC. That gets you through Mac's rookie deal, with a guy who not only knows the Pats system, but knows the Bama system Mac succeeded in. You then can get a proper look at who Mac is before deciding on his 5th year option, a possible extension, or whether you should move on.

My first choice is to get someone from outside the organization who's showing promise under one of the top offensive HC's, and see if you can really shake things up. But if that's not available, O'Brien is the "safest" option out there, if he's interested.

 

[RobertWeathers]

O'Brien may not be a the best option out there, but at this point I would LOVE two years of him as OC. That gets you through Mac's rookie deal, with a guy who not only knows the Pats system, but knows the Bama system Mac succeeded in. You then can get a proper look at who Mac is before deciding on his 5th year option, a possible extension, or whether you should move on.

My first choice is to get someone from outside the organization who's showing promise under one of the top offensive HC's, and see if you can really shake things up. But if that's not available, O'Brien is the "safest" option out there, if he's interested.

Spot on. BOB knows Mac, knows BB, ran high-scoring offenses but also is proven in developing a drafted QB in Deshaun Watson.

On the surface he appears to be the safest choice and best fit.

 

[crawhammer]

Fortunately for their terrible defense NE has arguable the worst offense in all of football.

Patriots have the worst red zone offense in the NFL (tied with the incredibly lowly Broncos at 37.50%). Arizona has the worst red zone defense in the NFL at 68.89%. So that's an interesting matchup of horribleness.

 

[ralmat55]

Perhaps Bill took a long look at him and found him wanting, at this particular time at least...

It was Bill that wanted to change the offense after McDaniels left. Patricia was just following orders and now will be the fall guy. That’s why Lombardi, Hardegree or Caley weren’t promoted to OC without title.

I kind of get it as the Shanahan offense would better hide some of Jones’ shortcomings. But, trying to accomplish this with coaches who have no experience coaching offense much less any experience in the Shanahan system was pure hubris.

No offensive whiz is coming in here as OC without title to work under Bill. It’s a no win situation as Bill will get all the credit if things go well with the OC getting all the blame if things go bad just like Patricia- just like Stephen when it comes to the defense.

You, me and a growing number of others here know what the Krafts need to do to make the Patriots a relevant franchise again. The question is will they? I’m betting their good ship is going to take on another year or two of water before they replace the captain.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Going on 4th/13 instead of attempting a 48-yard FG?

Letting Chris Harper return punts in Denver?

Not using Malcolm?

Continuingly to go for it on 4th down in the 2015 AFCCG. Had they attempted the highest % play of kicking the field goals, they beat Denver.

if he's not willing to accept Major, Significant organizational changes, then ownership has no choice but to fire him.

I gave Bill the benefit of the doubt and would want him to stay if he surrounded himself with better assistants, but he won't do that. I'd also ask what his plan is on spending this offseason? There is absolutely no freaking way you can make Meyers your highest paid WR going into next season as I fear he may command north of $15M. That would be just bad business.

If they implode and go 1-4 or 2-3 down the stretch, it may be time to cut the cord.

 

[SVN]

if he's not willing to accept Major, Significant organizational changes, then ownership has no choice but to fire him.

I hate what BB did to mac jones and the offense this yr. He wont acknowledge publicly it but we all know he is smart enough to acknowledge it privately that he dropped the ball. No one self scouts better. So i dont think him and the ownership after 20 yrs are a level of relationship where "he needs to accept major changes".They are likely mutual discussions where BB is going to give his opinions.
I dont want him gone like eveyrone here seems to jump on for a 6-6 team. He can fix it. There aren't many good coaches out there and he is the best. He screwed up . Happens. If an avg coach like harbaugh can stick around for stupid game decisions then BB deserves his time as much as he wants.
Easy to say he needs to go. When the replacement comes, then we will see the real issues.

 

[ashley]

Some practice notes:

 

[SVN]

It was Bill that wanted to change the offense after McDaniels left. Patricia was just following orders and now will be the fall guy. That’s why Lombardi, Hardegree or Caley weren’t promoted to OC without title.

I kind of get it as the Shanahan offense would better hide some of Jones’ shortcomings. But, trying to accomplish this with coaches who have no experience coaching offense much less any experience in the Shanahan system was pure hubris.

No offensive whiz is coming in here as OC without title to work under Bill. It’s a no win situation as Bill will get all the credit if things go well with the OC getting all the blame if things go bad just like Patricia- just like Stephen when it comes to the defense.

You, me and a growing number of others here know what the Krafts need to do to make the Patriots a relevant franchise again. The question is will they? I’m betting their good ship is going to take on another year or two of water before they replace the captain.

Maybe. But he has done it in the past . McDaniels is an example. So it might happen. Lot of coaches and players want an opportunity and there are only 32 teams. People just keep throwing this ideas that no one wants to come to the pats. look at the FA signings after brady left. why did they sign here ? if there is a opportunity and money , they will come.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

fify

Parcells once said during the 1994 season that the Center position was holding his offense hostage; same is true now regarding Both OT positions.

Brown hasn’t been that bad other than the games he played sick . And if we get an Lt we can move him back to rt which he was perfectly fine last year as. A swing tackle would be ideal too but we have lots of other needs to address first. Brown’s replacement can be addressed in ‘24. Next years priorities personnel wise (OC is arguably #1 overall) to me are T, Mlb(s), mccourty replacement , cb

 

[captain stone]

Brown hasn’t been that bad other than the games he played sick . And if we get an Lt we can move him back to rt which he was perfectly fine last year as. A swing tackle would be ideal too but we have lots of other needs to address first. Brown’s replacement can be addressed in ‘24. Next years priorities personnel wise (OC is arguably #1 overall) to me are T, Mlb(s), mccourty replacement , cb

I agree that moving Brown to RT is step #1... Not gonna just hand him the job either; he needs legit competition there too, and of a higher caliber than Cachoo, Cannonfodder, McDermott, the failed college TE & the pizza-maker (if any of those useless ****ing stiffs are re-signed, which I certainly hope NONE of them are)... And if it so happens that he loses that competition, then if he wants to stay as a Swing Tackle he'll also need to take a pay cut.

 

[SVN]

Continuingly to go for it on 4th down in the 2015 AFCCG. Had they attempted the highest % play of kicking the field goals, they beat Denver.

I gave Bill the benefit of the doubt and would want him to stay if he surrounded himself with better assistants, but he won't do that. I'd also ask what his plan is on spending this offseason? There is absolutely no freaking way you can make Meyers your highest paid WR going into next season as I fear he may command north of $15M. That would be just bad business.

If they implode and go 1-4 or 2-3 down the stretch, it may be time to cut the cord.

Cut the cord ? and bring in who ? We have a system and organizational process in place. its hard to bring in a new guy and expect results. And there arent very many coaches out there who will do better, although it always seems like so.
No coaching staff has been raided as much as the pats. The fact that they were relevant to all these defections was because of brady and BB. now the defections hurt more . He needs to rebuild the coaching tree internally again and he made a mistake assuming patricia can do the offensive changeover along with changing the offense. So he needs to fix this.
Cutting the cord due to a record would be a big upheaval without much coaches options.
People talk a lot about sean payton. He won 1 SB with brees and continuously choked in the playoffs .Not to mention several avg or below 500 seasons. For people who cant stand 1 losing season without brady from BB, can handle that with payton ?

 

[signbabybrady]

Are you at the point you want to fire BB?

No..... just trying to prepare myself for more Patricia. BB doesn't come off as someone who scapegoates someone else.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Cut the cord ? and bring in who ?

its hard to bring in a new guy and expect results. And there arent very many coaches out there who will do better, although it always seems like so.

They are out there. Plenty of new coaches are having success. And you can't turn it around and compare it to Bill when he had Tom. To hold the Pats to the standard they had from 2001-2019 is flat out delusional.

We have a system and organizational process in place.

It's showing it's cracks in the armor without Brady. The talent level continues to decline and still have not drafted one player that was a game changing/elite player at their respected position in a very long time. They are pretty dysfunctional right now with multiple players calling out and embarrassing coaches who are unqualified.

He needs to rebuild the coaching tree internally again and he made a mistake assuming patricia can do the offensive changeover along with changing the offense. So he needs to fix this.

No and that's the problem. Multiple people are observing Bill is not adapting well to today's game mostly on the offensive side. They need new ideas from the outside. Do you remember it took 10 years for Bill to win another Super Bowl after his initial group of assistants were raided in the early days? And that was with Tom Brady with several teams that should've won something. This current team hardly has talent so Bill does not have time to d*ck around with "friends and family". But here lies the problem. Rumor has it, nobody wants to work with Bill because he's pretty difficult to work with and doesn't pay well. The "pay well" part is odd given it's not his money.

Cutting the cord due to a record would be a big upheaval without much coaches options.

If the team is losing, going in the wrong direction and doesn't have a solid plan in place going forward, why would you keep him?

People talk a lot about sean payton. He won 1 SB with brees and continuously choked in the playoffs .Not to mention several avg or below 500 seasons.

He's a good offensive mind, but the reason they kept collapsing in the playoffs was because they stubbornly featured one or two offense players all season long, but couldn't adapt when playoff defenses took that away.

For people who cant stand 1 losing season without brady from BB, can handle that with payton ?

This could very well be another this year the team has a losing season.

 

[SVN]

 

[SVN]

They are out there. Plenty of new coaches are having success. And you can't turn it around and compare it to Bill when he had Tom. To hold the Pats to the standard they had from 2001-2019 is flat out delusional.

It's showing it's cracks in the armor without Brady. The talent level continues to decline and still have not drafted one player that was a game changing/elite player at their respected position in a very long time. They are pretty dysfunctional right now with multiple players calling out and embarrassing coaches who are unqualified.

No and that's the problem. Multiple people are observing Bill is not adapting well to today's game mostly on the offensive side. They need new ideas from the outside. Do you remember it took 10 years for Bill to win another Super Bowl after his initial group of assistants were raided in the early days? And that was with Tom Brady with several teams that should've won something. This current team hardly has talent so Bill does not have time to d*ck around with "friends and family". But here lies the problem. Rumor has it, nobody wants to work with Bill because he's pretty difficult to work with and doesn't pay well. The "pay well" part is odd given it's not his money.

If the team is losing, going in the wrong direction and doesn't have a solid plan in place going forward, why would you keep him?

He's a good offensive mind, but the reason they kept collapsing in the playoffs was because they stubbornly featured one or two offense players all season long, but couldn't adapt when playoff defenses took that away.

This could very well be another this year the team has a losing season.

It took 10 yrs BB to win another SB yes .But did you see them run the same offense every yr.?
I know BB messed up and its full pile on BB season but lets not ignore how much they changed the offense with brady every few yrs. Spread wide with moss, Two TEs with Gronk, There was the chip kelly sugar huddle,2018 all running .I am sure there are many other cases. Brady didnt run the same offense from 2004 to 2014 . We went to the SB twice in between and were a helmet catch away from winning 3 yrs after the previous. Lets not forget all that happened.
Again, lets read again the standard we got accustomed to with him and then decide if he should be fired. "Not won another superbowl in 10 yrs" .Any team will take that.
I actually prefer his grooming of assistants to take over when someone leaves. Thats how josh came , thats how flores came, bill o brien came. Just this time he messed up big time. And this team of players in general reminds me of the 2009 team with adalius thomas and co. They all want to do well but not everyrone has the awareness or effort level or fire to get angry and take it to another level. instead they just pout in the media. Other than mondre, mac jones and meyers eveyrone has played lackadaisical at times all season. and they all seem to think they are close.