Zappe vs Mac

[Kasmir]

I've made this point for years on here and the list above just highlights it. True pocket passers are dead. Now some genius will come along and say "you have to be able pass to win", thanks in advance seers.

The position has changed though where you're relying less on classic drop backs, putting less on QB's in some areas but asking more in others. More PA, misdirection, motion - more system players that when you get a fit, it works and hits. If not you get Goff, Mayfield, Trubisky and Fields is sadly in that category. Just a different type of QB. You don't see the classic pocket passers coming through anymore. And even guys like Mac are running tons of rpo/yac routes.

I'm not even trying to say one is better or we. Just can't deny the type we have and are seeing. Like sure Josh Allen can beat you with his arm but him, Mahomes are about as far away from the classic pocket passers most grew up watching.

not as difficult as you'd think. most take a ton of snaps uc throughput the year in / away from practice, on their own. although in game is obvious a different story. I remember Mahomes, I believe it was? I could be wrong it's late and I'm falling asleep but he took less than 20 snaps uc in college but practiced like 50-75 a week in/away from practice. Again I could be wrong but it was a prominent, recent QB.



I don't have to be sold on Zapee though. Gods help this forum if he becomes something since I basically drafted him myself. I'll be insufferable then. If that happens I would have extended Bill's career to catch Shula.

Got to call you on this. Justin Fields was your pick for us in 2020 and so far he's failing badly. Trey Lance has not looked good either and worse looks to be injury prone which is fatal for his style. Cam Newton, the NCAA avatar of the new breed of QB and 2015 NFL MVP is already out of the league. Russell Wilson looks like he's losing it too.

Mahomes is just extraordinary and may end up being the GOAT but he can play in any style.

But who else has any chance of challenging Brady, Manning and Brees for the long term? Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson will sooner or later need to succeed as pocket QB's as their running back skills fade. Running backs in the NFL have the shortest careers. Running QB's are little better.

I think it's still the old story in NFL: if legs are the key to a QB's success they just don't have longevity in the NFL. Careers are so limited in the NCAA that it doesn't matter there, but Cam vs Brady illustrates the utter contrast of the styles in longevity.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Got to call you on this. Justin Fields was your pick for us in 2020 and so far he's failing badly. Trey Lance has not looked good either and worse looks to be injury prone which is fatal for his style. Cam Newton, the NCAA avatar of the new breed of QB and 2015 NFL MVP is already out of the league. Russell Wilson looks like he's losing it too.

Mahomes is just extraordinary and may end up being the GOAT but he can play in any style.

But who else has any chance of challenging Brady, Manning and Brees for the long term? Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson will sooner or later need to succeed as pocket QB's as their running back skills fade. Running backs in the NFL have the shortest careers. Running QB's are little better.

I think it's still the old story in NFL: if legs are the key to a QB's success they just don't have longevity in the NFL. Careers are so limited in the NCAA that it doesn't matter there, but Cam vs Brady illustrates the utter contrast of the styles in longevity.

Is that a joke? No way Mahomes ever catches up to GOAT Brady who knocked off a prime Mahomes in championship games at the ages of 41 and 43.

 

[Kasmir]

Is that a joke? No way Mahomes ever catches up to GOAT Brady who knocked off a prime Mahomes in championship games at the ages of 41 and 43.

I actually think Mahomes is more talented than Brady was at his age. Longevity is hugely important for QB's because of the cumulative value of experience at that position. It's doubtful that Mahomes career will be long enough to challenge Brady. But given Mahomes's vastly better arm and leg talent and impressive processing skills, if he can play 15+ years and continues to improve I do think he can challenge Brady as the GOAT.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Mac, but it will be really interesting to see what the leash length is? One one hand I don’t think Belichick doesn’t want to start bouncing back and forth, on the other Mac can’t keep having multiple interception games. The rest of the season is going to be really interesting.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Is that a joke? No way Mahomes ever catches up to GOAT Brady who knocked off a prime Mahomes in championship games at the ages of 41 and 43.

and Brady lost to Eli and nick foles. Your point?

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Got to call you on this. Justin Fields was your pick for us in 2020 and so far he's failing badly. Trey Lance has not looked good either and worse looks to be injury prone which is fatal for his style. Cam Newton, the NCAA avatar of the new breed of QB and 2015 NFL MVP is already out of the league. Russell Wilson looks like he's losing it too.

Mahomes is just extraordinary and may end up being the GOAT but he can play in any style.

But who else has any chance of challenging Brady, Manning and Brees for the long term? Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson will sooner or later need to succeed as pocket QB's as their running back skills fade. Running backs in the NFL have the shortest careers. Running QB's are little better.

I think it's still the old story in NFL: if legs are the key to a QB's success they just don't have longevity in the NFL. Careers are so limited in the NCAA that it doesn't matter there, but Cam vs Brady illustrates the utter contrast of the styles in longevity.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. This is where people need to take their opinions out of the matter. They're so quick to give the most obvious opinions but have no idea what they're talking about.

As I said in my post and numerous times on this forum. Yes you absolutely need to pass from the pocket to win but those strict, classic pocket QB's simply aren't in the league or coming up through college. You look around and QB's like Brady just aren't around anymore.

You have guys that are more system specific. More mobile. More athletic. This is where people get upset, for w/e reason. And I get responses like yours. Which is fine but again missing the point entirely. You need to pass to win but the type of QB getting drafted and playing time are changing.

If you dont believe me ill ask you the same question i ask everyone and get 0 good responses. Like someone will list every SB winner from the past. Making themselves look silly like I don't know lol.

Who are these pocket passers that are going to carry the league bc they're not currently in the NFL. Which tells you all you need to know. Brady will retire soon. Stafford and guys like Ryan are on their last legs. You have freaks like Mahomes, Allen, Herbert and a few more than guys that can't win without PA, strong running game, again scheme specific.
Just want to say this ain't my opinion or me saying I'm right or we. It's just looking at the landscape and taking it in. That's why I think too many want to give their opinions rather than some observation, research etc.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

and Brady lost to Eli and nick foles. Your point?

Ok do you want to crunch the numbers? Let’s compare Brady’s career regular season and postseason numbers compared to Mahomes?

Mahomes isn’t even close

 

[NG Pats Fan]

I actually think Mahomes is more talented than Brady was at his age. Longevity is hugely important for QB's because of the cumulative value of experience at that position. It's doubtful that Mahomes career will be long enough to challenge Brady. But given Mahomes's vastly better arm and leg talent and impressive processing skills, if he can play 15+ years and continues to improve I do think he can challenge Brady as the GOAT.

Wow you’re expectations are very high and somewhat unrealistic. He would need at least 5-6 super bowls with 4-5 super bowl MVPs to even be in the conversation. To surpass he would have to continue to put up all pro numbers in his late 30s/40s and win 8 + Super Bowls…not happening

Brady also won a super bowl at age 43 with a different franchise. Mahomes would have to leave Kansas City and prove he could win with other systems

 

[Fubby]

What if he plays a ****ty half? Or a ****ty quarter like he did in the 2nd of the last game?

Not sure what your point is that your trying to make. I said game, so I mean game

 

[Fubby]

You can't do that to a player. If that's the case, teams would alternate QBs at various points all season and it would be a mess. Although, we have seen teams do that before, but it doesn't change the fact I don't recall a situation where that's worked out too well.

Again, the Bledsoe/Brady thing is a bad comp because Bledsoe went 5-11 the year before and only had a few games where he didn't throw an interception and also didn't throw a lot of touchdowns. He had a decent game in the opener but he made a bad mental mistake when he changed the play on a 4th down play that I recall being an issue, and then threw two picks and they'd scored just 3 points the following week against the Jets before the injury. So him sitting was a culmination of issues and he hadn't earned the same benefit of the doubt based on his recent play, and that was obviously a massive deal at the time because of his contract.

I’m not suggesting this approach is the way all teams in all situations go about it. I just think in this situation where, despite what some might think, Mac is likely the leading starting qb but not the de facto starting qb. He’s a second year player who absolutely performed above expectations as a rookie but quite frankly stunk to start this season. You play the hot hand as long as it goes for. Either it unearths a hidden gem or it fizzles and we revert back to plan A.

 

[Kasmir]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. This is where people need to take their opinions out of the matter. They're so quick to give the most obvious opinions but have no idea what they're talking about.

As I said in my post and numerous times on this forum. Yes you absolutely need to pass from the pocket to win but those strict, classic pocket QB's simply aren't in the league or coming up through college. You look around and QB's like Brady just aren't around anymore.

You have guys that are more system specific. More mobile. More athletic. This is where people get upset, for w/e reason. And I get responses like yours. Which is fine but again missing the point entirely. You need to pass to win but the type of QB getting drafted and playing time are changing.

If you dont believe me ill ask you the same question i ask everyone and get 0 good responses. Like someone will list every SB winner from the past. Making themselves look silly like I don't know lol.

Who are these pocket passers that are going to carry the league bc they're not currently in the NFL. Which tells you all you need to know. Brady will retire soon. Stafford and guys like Ryan are on their last legs. You have freaks like Mahomes, Allen, Herbert and a few more than guys that can't win without PA, strong running game, again scheme specific.
Just want to say this ain't my opinion or me saying I'm right or we. It's just looking at the landscape and taking it in. That's why I think too many want to give their opinions rather than some observation, research etc.

I truly have no idea what you are really saying. Why are Mahomes, Allen and Herbert scheme specific? Are you truly saying that Herbert is an example of a new breed of QB? I can see that Mahomes and Allen have legs but they both have very strong traditional "pocket" QB skills as well and those will continue to improve and dominate their play as their legs skills fade.

And what part of what you are saying is research and not opinion? The NCAA has always had QB's that relied on legs as well as arms and always will because the legs are always fresh there.

What's really changed? Lamar Jackson? He isn't a trend by himself. The two QB's stylistically most like him last year (Trey Lance and Justin Fields) have so far not produced. Zach Wilson's off platform improvisations have been near disastrous for him. Vince Young failed. Cam Newton and Michael Vick flamed out. Russell Wilson might be fading too.

I get that lots of folks are saying what you're saying, especially emphasizing the importance of "off platform" plays, but that's opinion too, clearly mostly in response to Mahomes's incredible success. Other than echoing those opinions, what actual research supports your claim that pocket QB's are dead?

If you are saying that if Tom Brady was starting his career today he would fail because the game has changed so much, that's crazy. If you are saying he and Peyton Manning wouldn't get a chance today in the NCAA and hence in the NFL because their skills are out of fashion that's very sad if true and hardly anything to crow about. And observing NFL history, all it takes to blow up a foolish fashion trend is contrarian success.

And at the NCAA level, historic recent measurable success by the likes Joe Burrow, Mac Jones and Bailey Zappe is sure to be noticed and nurtured by someone. Even if it's only at the Western Kentucky's.

And none of what I'm saying should be taken to mean that I believe Mac Jones or Bailey Zappe in particular will succeed in the NFL, let alone become superstars. Or that Justin Fields (whom I actually like a lot) and Trey Lance will fail. But if you're betting that no great pocket QB's will ever again emerge and dominate the future NFL, I'll take the other side of that bet and give you odds. It's still freaking football they're playing.

BTW are you predicting that Arch Manning is overhyped and is DOA at Texas?

 

[Triumph]

Zap 16 - 1 odds for OROY.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Wow you’re expectations are very high and somewhat unrealistic. He would need at least 5-6 super bowls with 4-5 super bowl MVPs to even be in the conversation. To surpass he would have to continue to put up all pro numbers in his late 30s/40s and win 8 + Super Bowls…not happening

Brady also won a super bowl at age 43 with a different franchise. Mahomes would have to leave Kansas City and prove he could win with other systems

This is all your opinion. Since when is winning the most super bowls or SB MVPs a prerequisite to being the greatest? Brady is the most accomplished NFL player in history. But he’s not the most talented. And Mahomes is just getting started. He got his first MVP in his first year as starter. Brady did not get his until he was 7 years into the league. And if it weren't for a fluky offsides by Dee Ford, Mahomes would have won the super bowl his first year as starter too.

 

[1960Pats]

I'm happy with Zappe but I'd go back to Mac.

 

[1960Pats]

I don't know who should start, but I WILL SAY that I believe that Zappe has better pocket awareness, and slides around much better than Mac.
I hate to say it, but you all know what I am thinking.
At least I think so.

Zappe has had more time to throw than Jones did. In the first few games I was worried about Jones' survival and as it turned out he didn't.

 

[1960Pats]

Zappe projects charisma the way a dishrag leaks water.

Like Bill?

 

[1960Pats]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. This is where people need to take their opinions out of the matter. They're so quick to give the most obvious opinions but have no idea what they're talking about.

As I said in my post and numerous times on this forum. Yes you absolutely need to pass from the pocket to win but those strict, classic pocket QB's simply aren't in the league or coming up through college. You look around and QB's like Brady just aren't around anymore.

You have guys that are more system specific. More mobile. More athletic. This is where people get upset, for w/e reason. And I get responses like yours. Which is fine but again missing the point entirely. You need to pass to win but the type of QB getting drafted and playing time are changing.

If you dont believe me ill ask you the same question i ask everyone and get 0 good responses. Like someone will list every SB winner from the past. Making themselves look silly like I don't know lol.

Who are these pocket passers that are going to carry the league bc they're not currently in the NFL. Which tells you all you need to know. Brady will retire soon. Stafford and guys like Ryan are on their last legs. You have freaks like Mahomes, Allen, Herbert and a few more than guys that can't win without PA, strong running game, again scheme specific.
Just want to say this ain't my opinion or me saying I'm right or we. It's just looking at the landscape and taking it in. That's why I think too many want to give their opinions rather than some observation, research etc.

I think it went something like this:
NCAA HCs were training QB's for years to be pocket passers for the NYFL.
NCAA HCs lost their jobs when that didn't win at the college level.
NCAA HCs started using running QBs more and more.
The NYFL has less pocket passers to choose from and is forced to take in more running QBs.

 

[Love The Drake]

This man called it early. He even said if Zappe was the backup and get's a chance he will win the starting job. Great Draft pick Coach!

Holy crap

 

[Ian]

I will do to Mac what everybody does to diminish what Zappe has done.

That was against the worst pass defense in the league at the time of that game. Even Detroit and Cleveland pass defense was better than Baltimore pass defense

The percentage of people killing Mac vs the percentage of people killing Zappe in this thread, if you've gone through the entire thing, are vastly different. It's 80% of people hating on Jones vs 20% toward Zappe. And the people saying anything negative about Zappe are doing so more in defense of Mac, which has us currently in a circle of posts that is making that spot behind my right eye hurt.

 

[Ian]

For anyone wondering feeding into the Zappe spreads the ball around better than Jones, here's the breakdown on that:

Spreading the Love: Ball Distribution Totals Between Bailey Zappe and Mac Jones | PatsFans.com

With Mac Jones still sidelined with an injury, New England Patriots fans have been debating various stats, including little nuances within the offense where they believe one may excel over another. One topic of discussion that's come up in recent days has been who does a better job in terms of...

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