This years draft haul

[TheRainMaker]

Which one do you think was a good pick in the second round of the draft?

2008 - Terrence Wheatley
2009 - Patrick Chung
2009 - Darius Butler
2011 - Rasi Dowling
2012 - Tavon Wilson
2015 - Jordan Richards
2016 - Cyrus Jones
2018 - Duke Dawson
2019 - JoeJuan Williams

The only picks that you can defend are Chung and Butler. Both players Bill badly managed. Chung was playing FS when he was SS in college. Butler was also forced to play outside CB which he struggled badly to put it nicely. Ras IR Dowling was incomplete because he barely played, but he had no business being drafted with his major injury history. Ditto with Wheatley with no wrists coming out of College.

We also drafted Duggar in the 2nd round of
The 2020 draft. The jury is still out on Duggar who is great against the run & terrible against the pass.

As much as I hated the pick, he is their best 2nd round DB as Bill failed Chung his first stint (his words). He made quite a bit of plays (4 INT's, 5 PD's) and had a very good QB rating when thrown his way at 66% in his 2nd season.

You lost me saying Richards exceeded his contract. That guy was a complete bum, who was a major contributor to our Eagles Super Bowl loss after Butler was benched.

You may think those were good picks, but your in the minority.

I cannot think of a Patriots player from the past more hated than Jordan Richards

A 2nd round pick needs to be more than a special team contributor.

Agreed. 2nd round is the money round to find the talent teams slept on in the 1st round. They should be eventual starters.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

the point I’m trying to make is that you can have the best guard in the world and it will barely move the meter. The Pats had the “greatest offensive lineman of all time” . Thier record was 100-91 and made his only SB appearance in his final year (Where they got smoked )

The Pats had the greatest QB of all time and thier record during that time was was 219-61 with 17 playoff appearances, 9 Superbowls and 6 SB championships.

yes you need a good guard, but whoever they are, they are not going to make the team demonstratively better.

Drafting a game changer early in the draft will.

We were drafting at 21, not 10. We already had our QB, #15 from the previous draft. We were already looking better at WR, and added to that a round later where we knew that several good WR's would be available. Yes there was a LB and a CB available that were pretty good, but we got who we really wanted, a quality player, plus picked up 3 other picks. I call that a home run.

 

[notex]

I think Pats have a done a pretty solid job lately. Duggar, Baramore, the three Jones brothers , Stevenson, Harris, Zappe, Strange, Thornton, Meyers all seem like building blocks. Still waiting to see more from Uche/Jennings. Sure I’m missing a few…

Admittedly no “superstars” of the bunch but it hasn’t been a disaster by any means. As
Mentioned several times, we are picking at bottom of the rounds so we aren’t picking when most superstar talent is available..

 

[PatsFanInVa]

During the glory days the Pats fell into the trap of drafting for high potential vs. collecting solid talent. Dominique Easley and Rasi Dowling are the poster children from that era. The team has gotten back to fundamentals that last few drafts and the results are obvious. Some of this coincides with Caserio moving to Texas.

so you're saying that they fell into a trap by building a team without understanding that the goal is to collect talent?'

(I'm being a digk here... there's a famous bb quote, we're not collecting talent, we're building a team. It's not like this is the last word on the topic. I mean, BB has said a lot of words since then.)

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

I think that's why you often see Bill draft a player and get a FA for the same position. Let them battle it out and end up with one who is capable,

An additional factor may be this: IIRC during the college season, BB asks his scouts to concentrate on certain positions since that is what he feels will be a team need. In doing so, the scouts compile extensive dossiers on what they found including some unrecognized, late-round or F/A guys that may have slipped under the radar. I think this is how the Patriots end up with these gems.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

so you're saying that they fell into a trap by building a team without understanding that the goal is to collect talent?'

(I'm being a digk here... there's a famous bb quote, we're not collecting talent, we're building a team. It's not like this is the last word on the topic. I mean, BB has said a lot of words since then.)

I remember the quote. As you suggest taking risks in the draft to based on potential talent goes against the team building philosophy. Since it is based on talent evaluation, the draft itself is a collection of talent, supporting the theory that teams do not value the draft as much as fans.

 

[PScottman]

supporting the theory that teams do not value the draft as much as fans

A good writeup on the subject from the land of the Aesir, mead, and Wednesday (Odin's Day):

NFL Draft Pick Bust Rate Remains Very High

More analytics haven’t increased the success rate

www.dailynorseman.com

 

[cupofjoe1962]

Exceeded his contract was not a statement of performance but of contracts signed beyond a rookie deal.

He was re-signed by BAL then by ATL beyond his rookie deal. I also never said "good picks". It should've been pretty clear that my point was judgement of picks is a fools game on its own as a measure of a team and its staff. Worse when done by laymen after the fact using NFL data collected post-draft as a bludgeon.

Jordan Richards is nothing more than a specials team player and nobody believes he should have been selected in the second round of the draft.

 

[PatsFan2]

Jordan Richards is nothing more than a specials team player and nobody believes he should have been selected in the second round of the draft.

You're missing another thing Richards was a teammate tackler too. I remember him wiping out the entire Defense with a missed Tackle on Juju Shoemaker in Pittsburgh many moons ago. I think he lead the team in Tackles on that one play alone.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

TJ Hockenson had 1 catch last week, Kyle Dugger drew primary coverage.
Mark Andrews had 100 catches against the Patriots, coincidentally Dugger didn't play.

Outside of a few homers on Patsfans, nobody believes Duggar is good at defending the pass.

He is great vs the run.

Having a decent game vs the lions does not eliminate the struggles of other games.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

The jury is not still out. Duggar is not terrible against the pass. You didn't watch the game against Detroit? You are in over your head.

I was at the game vs Detroit

One good game vs the Lions does not erase all the mistakes he made in the past.

He is young and can still develop, but don’t say he hasn’t struggled vs the pass

It makes you look foolish




He struggled vs the Dolphins earlier this season & even he acknowledged his poor performance.

Kyle Dugger shoulders blame for Dolphins’ long touchdown against Patriots: ‘I didn’t do my job’

The safety was critical of his performance after the game.

www.patspulpit.com

 

[cupofjoe1962]

TJ Hockenson had 1 catch last week, Kyle Dugger drew primary coverage.
Mark Andrews had 100 catches against the Patriots, coincidentally Dugger didn't play.

Ask him how he did vs the dolphins

Kyle Dugger shoulders blame for Dolphins’ long touchdown against Patriots: ‘I didn’t do my job’

The safety was critical of his performance after the game.

www.patspulpit.com

 

[PScottman]

Jordan Richards is nothing more than a specials team player and nobody believes he should have been selected in the second round of the draft.

Thanks for continuing to be ultra-transparent through your continued effort to try and guide the narrative back to your happy place of the Patriots suck at drafting which has nothing to do with the actual point that the entire league sucks at drafting when actually examined through any objective analysis. And since the actual results of your first list of DBs was debunked now desperately cling to the single example BUT BUT BUT look over here..."Dodson...we've got Dodson over here!"

"...a study of 1996-2016 draft picks. The results, which are based on the Pro Football Reference AV metric, are sobering:

• 16.7% didn’t play for the team that drafted them
• 37% were considered useless. They either didn’t play much or didn’t make the team.
• 15.3% were considered poor. Had limited playing time and didn’t do well in the time they had.
• 10.5% were considered average. These are mediocre players that had starts or significant contributions over 2-3 years.
• 12.3% were considered good. These could be mediocre or average players that were multi-year starters, Pat Elflein or Christian Ponder for example, or perhaps some genuinely good players that didn’t last all that long for the team that drafted them- Sidney Rice for example. This is where the AV metric can over-rate a player based on the number of starts, rather than their performance while on the field.
• 6.9% were considered Great. This category is the first that includes undeniably good draft picks. In order to be considered great, they would’ve had to play for the team that drafted them into a second contract, and also performed well over those years.
• 1% were considered legendary. These are future Hall of Famers, multi-year All-Pros among the best in the league for most of their relatively long careers."

20% of ALL draft picks...regardless of round chosen are above average. 1 in 5 without even bringing "rounds" into it. You know that the Patriots got TWO of that 20% outlined above in that same year (so ABOVE the league average) in Trey Flowers and Shaq Mason? (Oh, and guess what else...they signed an UDFA that's not counted in the draft analysis...some guy named David Andrews...so they actually came out WELL ahead of the league average for player selection via the "non-free agency" process).

But I know...Jordan Richards still sucks and should be the only measuring stick for this.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I remember the quote. As you suggest taking risks in the draft to based on potential talent goes against the team building philosophy. Since it is based on talent evaluation, the draft itself is a collection of talent, supporting the theory that teams do not value the draft as much as fans.

I think, regarding that quote, at the time, the idea was you can't just plug in a talented guy and to hell with everything else (e.g., if he's a team-averse guy in BB's eyes, his talent is unlikely to ultimately win the day. See Bourne, Kendrick--although his level of talent isn't proven to be better than Meyers-Parker-Agholor. He's not head and shoulders above that group, and he does all he can to drop down a level below them.) But also for example, if the fans are screaming about their favorite skill player at the college level BB might just have another idea of what pieces will fit better. You can't just say "he's a madden rating 99, he's got a madden rating of 98" etc.

I have no idea what you mean by "as you suggest, taking risks in the draft to based on potential talent goes against the team building philosophy." Part of that might be grammar, but that quote doesn't really treat with the question of risk -- if it does, it is fully in support of taking risks in the draft that support team building as envisioned: "We need this guy who can chip block on passing downs, and we'll pay a 4th round pick for him because we have to worry about Team X or Team Y. " Fans call it a reach, even though he wouldn't be there by the 5th, which comes out 5 days later, but a lie gets around the world before the truth gets its pants on. That's the book on it, some fantasy webpage repeats it, etc., all our experts quote the same rubbish. Why, he wasn't even "rated" to be drafted at all. Except he was. That's how you know your fantasy webpage was wrong. Say what you want about BB, but "he won't take risks in the draft" is just ridiculous. He's always pickng somebody weird.

But yeah, I think that not just BB, but all NFL coaches, are keenly aware that the draft is a crapshoot, in ways that fans often just seem unable to comprehend.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

a

Thanks for continuing to be ultra-transparent through your continued effort to try and guide the narrative back to your happy place of the Patriots suck at drafting which has nothing to do with the actual point that the entire league sucks at drafting when actually examined through any objective analysis. And since the actual results of your first list of DBs was debunked now desperately cling to the single example BUT BUT BUT look over here..."Dodson...we've got Dodson over here!"

"...a study of 1996-2016 draft picks. The results, which are based on the Pro Football Reference AV metric, are sobering:

• 16.7% didn’t play for the team that drafted them
• 37% were considered useless. They either didn’t play much or didn’t make the team.
• 15.3% were considered poor. Had limited playing time and didn’t do well in the time they had.
• 10.5% were considered average. These are mediocre players that had starts or significant contributions over 2-3 years.
• 12.3% were considered good. These could be mediocre or average players that were multi-year starters, Pat Elflein or Christian Ponder for example, or perhaps some genuinely good players that didn’t last all that long for the team that drafted them- Sidney Rice for example. This is where the AV metric can over-rate a player based on the number of starts, rather than their performance while on the field.
• 6.9% were considered Great. This category is the first that includes undeniably good draft picks. In order to be considered great, they would’ve had to play for the team that drafted them into a second contract, and also performed well over those years.
• 1% were considered legendary. These are future Hall of Famers, multi-year All-Pros among the best in the league for most of their relatively long careers."

20% of ALL draft picks...regardless of round chosen are above average. 1 in 5 without even bringing "rounds" into it. You know that the Patriots got TWO of that 20% outlined above in that same year (so ABOVE the league average) in Trey Flowers and Shaq Mason? (Oh, and guess what else...they signed an UDFA that's not counted in the draft analysis...some guy named David Andrews...so they actually came out WELL ahead of the league average for player selection via the "non-free agency" process).

But I know...Jordan Richards still sucks and should be the only measuring stick for this.

That’s a whole lot of hog wash to justify
Taking Jordan Richards in round #2.

I don’t even think the koolaid drinkers will support you on Richards, but you never know.

I just hope we don’t have any more Jordan Richards picks anytime soon, but I dont
Want to rain in your parade.

Did you like Cyrus Jones as much as you love Jordan Richards?

How about Chris Canty?
He was a first round pick
You will probably point out he was a good dancer….. lol

 

[PatsFanInVa]

....
20% of ALL draft picks...regardless of round chosen are above average. 1 in 5 without even bringing "rounds" into it. You know that the Patriots got TWO of that 20% outlined above in that same year (so ABOVE the league average) in Trey Flowers and Shaq Mason? (Oh, and guess what else...they signed an UDFA that's not counted in the draft analysis...some guy named David Andrews...so they actually came out WELL ahead of the league average for player selection via the "non-free agency" process).

But I know...Jordan Richards still sucks and should be the only measuring stick for this.

I like the research and I think I am on your side but the editor in me can't take the idea of an average that 20% fall above. Definitionally 50% of all picks are at or above average. Again, this reaction is purely driven by language.

 

[PScottman]

Ask him how he did vs the dolphins

Kyle Dugger shoulders blame for Dolphins’ long touchdown against Patriots: ‘I didn’t do my job’

The safety was critical of his performance after the game.

www.patspulpit.com

Kyle Dugger Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Kyle Dugger. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Weird, his statistics seem to improve year by year in BOTH metrics (run and pass). From allowing a 64% completion against to a 44% SO FAR this year. Compare to Jordan Poyer for example...64% this year so far...Minkah Fitzpatrick? 54.6%

 

[PatsFanInVa]

a


That’s a whole lot of hog wash to justify
Taking Jordan Richards in round #2.

I don’t even think the koolaid drinkers will support you on Richards, but you never know.

I just hope we don’t have any more Jordan Richards picks anytime soon, but I dont
Want to rain in your parade.

Did you like Cyrus Jones as much as you love Jordan Richards?

How about Chris Canty?
He was a first round pick
You will probably point out he was a good dancer….. lol

I don't think he was arguing specifically that Jordan Richards panned out. He did a good stat rundown on what one should expect in the draft. That's the way to do this, rather than yelling name 1, name 2, name 3, patting yoursself on the back, and declaring victory. Just my 2 cents.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

I don't think he was arguing specifically that Jordan Richards panned out. He did a good stat rundown on what one should expect in the draft. That's the way to do this, rather than yelling name 1, name 2, name 3, patting yoursself on the back, and declaring victory. Just my 2 cents.

I get real tired of seeing the homers try to put lipstick on a pig.

Jordan Richards was a special team player & a 2nd round pick on a special team player is not a good pick

Not to mention, that special team player name is not Slater or play like Slater.

We got Slater who was a far better special team player in the 5th round and he is as good as it gets for a special team player

Richards was no Slater on special teams

 

[cupofjoe1962]

Kyle Dugger Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Kyle Dugger. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Weird, his statistics seem to improve year by year in BOTH metrics (run and pass). From allowing a 64% completion against to a 44% SO FAR this year. Compare to Jordan Poyer for example...64% this year so far...Minkah Fitzpatrick? 54.6%

Poyer has been battling injuries this season