What if the Patriots had made the playoffs under Matt Cassel?

[TheRainMaker]

Sparano won the division with frickin' Jay Fiedler in 2008

That was Chad Pennington.

and if it weren't for Rodney, Maroney, and Thomas injuries we probably would have won the division that year.

Rodney and Thomas were significant, but the team ran better without Maroney.

It also helped Brady and Belichick that the AFCE was a joke from 2001-2020.

This isn't emphasized enough and many posters are in denial over this.

Brady has never had competition from an elite QB in the same division...ever, with the exception of 2020 when he lost the division race to Drew Brees (and Brees was cooked after his rib injury so whether he was elite that year is arguable).

Tom seems to have few defenses during his time that have him figured out. The Saints D is that current team.

 

[Wozzy]

The issue I see is that you're arguing with yourself. There isn't a single poster who has ever said that it isn't a team sport. Even Brady has said it's the ultimate team sport.

Who are you responding to?

Nobody, nothing weaker than responding to a poster and not replying directly. It means someone wants their weak take to go unchallenged.

And sure, the same Brady zealots co-opt every single thread they enter to tell us he has magic powers and that’s how they won six rings, like this thread…. every…. single… time.

What you fail to acknowledge, over and over and over again, is that different positions have more effects and influences on the outcome of games.

This ^ has never happened ever. I can acknowledge the importance of QB’s without ascribing total team results to that one position. Brady didn’t block on the OLine, he didn’t play special teams or defense. According to you jokers he is the alpha and omega. He put up the greatest single performance in Super Bowl history against the Eagles and lost to Nick Foles… maybe Tom needed to try harder .

Drew Brees led the league in passing in 2016 and won 7 games, Deshaun Watson was the best QB in the league in 2020, led the league in passing and had the best stats of his career… his team won 4 games. Newsflash: it wasn’t because Watson or Brees QB magic wasn’t strong enough… it was their teams.

You seem to view the QB, gunner, and LB as being equal, since they all have a role to play. You continuing to state that it's a team game over and over again, is just lazy, since no one is saying otherwise.

Again, completely false. The gunner is more important to kick coverage than Tom is, especially after the offense fails. There are three phases to football, offense and defense are about equal, special teams is the glue that makes both sides better. They’re all important. Green Bay got bounced from the playoffs last season because their ST’s unit made 4 mistakes and turned the ball over to the other team. Newsflash: it wasn’t because Aaron Roger’s QB magic ran out.

The fact of the matter is that the QB position is universally considered as the most important in this team sport. You can have a defense that doesn't allow any points, but if you don't score, you've got nothing. The game is about scoring.

No it’s not, this game is about points… specifically point differential. Points scored versus points allowed. This statement about offense above is one of the most ignorant things I’ve read here this year… congrats. This isn’t fantasy football. The second most important stat in football is turnovers, because they most correlate to points.

The QB is the main contributor to the scoring game. Therefore, the QB is the main position in the game. Of course you need D and ST to do their jobs since they're a part of the game, but nobody in those 2 groups has the same weight of the QB.

We get it, QB’s are important, something nobody has denied. In 12 years in Detroit Matt Stafford went to the playoffs 4 times and had zero playoff wins. Jared Goff inherited the Lions team that won 4 games with Matt a season prior and lost one more game than he did. Meanwhile in one season on the Rams Matt won a Super Bowl with a team Jared had there with two seasons prior.

Seems the big difference between Matt and Jared, the difference between a “good” QB and an “average” QB, the level of importance... equals about one win.

Your use of a handful of non-elite QBs as proof that you don't need a top 10 or elite QB to win SBs is also pathetically weak. It's fine, you continue to believe that Bill can win w/ just any QB, while we wait for it to actually happen.

A plethora of average/good QB’s winning Super Bowls is uncomfortable for the QB fanboys like yourself because it shoots holes in the magical unicorn QB theory. And show me where I said Bill or anyone "can win with any QB,” it never happened. Seems your entire response here is built upon putting words never uttered into my mouth… a pile of horse dung.

I have always maintained you need at least “good” QB play to win in the playoffs. I said the Pats were doomed in 2020 because Cam was toast before a single game was played. I say often Lamar Jackson is an inaccurate passer who will never win a Super Bowl. I know QB’s are important to the offense.

I say TEAM is more important than any one player, and this is unequivocally true. Stats and history prove this again and again and again.

 

[venecol]

I can acknowledge the importance of QB’s without ascribing total team results to that one position.

We get it, QB’s are important, something nobody has denied.

And show me where I said Bill or anyone "can win with any QB,” it never happened.

I have always maintained you need at least “good” QB play to win in the playoffs. I know QB’s are important to the offense.

Thank you. We're making progress.

 

[Wozzy]

Thank you. We're making progress.

This has always been my position, the progression is all yours.

 

[Biffins]

In the 2008 Week 11 game against the JEST, Cassel became the first QB to throw for 400 yards and rush for 60 in the same game. He tied that game on a fourth-down throw to Randy Moss after leading a textbook two-minute drive.

Unfortunately, the defense didn't hold, and the JEST kicked a FG to win that game. Ultimately, the 11–5 Patriots became one of the only 11-win teams to miss the playoffs.

How differently would things have turned out if they had won that game? They would've been 12–4, and the 3 seed in the playoffs. Moreover, at that point, Cassel looked like a top 5 QB after thrashing the Raiders, Cardinals, and Bills. While I doubt they would've won the Super Bowl, I think it's reasonable to think they might have won at least one playoff game.

So, either way: how differently do you think Pats history (including his trade value, which teams might have wanted him) turns out if he makes the playoffs, or wins a playoff game (or, if you really want to go there, somehow won the SB)?

They would have been one and done.

The only difference would be that BB would have been able to have won a division without Brady as HC. He could say today I did that once. That’s about it.

 

[Tunescribe]

It's damn funny how threads like this always have Dis Array's Buccaneers Seminary vassals weighing in. "Sacrilege! Everyone knows the Patriots never could and never will succeed without our deity Tom behind center!"

That 2008 team was solid, showed tons of fight and SHOULD have been a playoff entry. I remember traveling to the game in Seattle that year to witness them steal a victory they likely shouldn't have. After an undefeated December they were relatively healthy as I recall; there's no telling how they would have fared. But of course, I'm an outlier who dares to consider football a team sport so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[1960Pats]

It’s both, duh.

No it isn't. The NYFL has many average or below average coaches who have made it to a SB or even won a SB title, but none of them did it with poor players.

Not too long ago I saw a poster argue that you can have a poor QB and win. He only provided 4 examples and they went back 40 years. Each one of those teams had great players on defense to make up for the QB.

And if coaching is so important then why hasn't Mathew Slater developed into an NYFL WR. He's had the best HC that money can buy.

 

[Wozzy]

Joe Gibbs won Super Bowls with Joe Theismann, Doug Williams and Mark Rypien... that's impressive.
Bill Parcells won Super Bowls with Jeff Hosteler and Phil Simms, and something Belichick wouldn't have done, got to a Super Bowl with Drew Bledsoe... that's impressive.
Bill Belichick won 10 games with a backup quarterback and loaded supporting cast but was 4-5 against teams with a .500 or better record and didn't make the postseason... coming off an undefeated regular season and failing to even make the postseason is an epic fail.
Belichick with Brissett lost 0-16 to Buffalo in Foxboro. A few games later Belichick with Brady pummeled Buffalo 41-25 on the road. I wonder what the difference was?


Did Brady put the team up 14-10 with 2:45 left? Yes he did. Did the defense allow a 12-play 83-yard game-winning drive to Eli Manning? Yes they did.

They scored 17 points in the second Super Bowl. Again the team was up late in the game, 17-15 with 3:46 left and NYG backed up at their 12-yardline. Again the defense allowed a 9-play 88-yard game-winning drive to Eli Manning. The defense wasn't good in that game either, they gave up 400 yards and couldn't get off the field on several occasions. NYG won the TOP 37:05 to 22:15. The Patriots defense was pretty bad that entire season.


You said "top 5 defense" and when someone generically states top defense absolutely no one thinks you're talking about forced turnovers. They think you're taking about points and yards. You were wrong on both. Top 5 and top 8 aren't the same either. You redefined your parameters and arbitrarily combined stats to fit your argument. Nice try.


I can recognize the obvious when it's smacking you right in the face... Brady has more Super Bowl rings (7) than John Elway, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers combined (6). Brady's had a better career than Joe Montana and Steve Young combined. Brady's the only quarterback with Super Bowl rings and MVPs with two franchises. I'm wouldn't call him a hero but he is a uniquely accomplished NFL player... he simply has been better than everyone else. In Tampa Bay too with an entirely different coaching staff... Brady never missed a beat, in fact he's had his best back-to-back seasons of his career in a Bucs uniform.


It's just a coincidence that Belichick has won 17 of 18 divisions with Brady and 0 of 9 with all other quarterbacks? This isn't a "hater" narrative... if Belichick doesn't win another division before he retires then it's going to be a glaring difference (with and without Brady).

I didn't read any of this tripe above.. like none of it.

The last time you argued with me you got destroyed with facts and data, then ignored those facts and basic reason to push your BS narrative. So I assume you did it again above...

You're easily one of the biggest Brady fanboys here Stan. I haven't got the time or patience to spar with smooth brains who think one player on rosters with 53 total players who only play offense control everything using magical powers.

 

[PatsWSB47]

I didn't read any of this tripe above.. like none of it.

The last time you argued with me you got destroyed with facts and data, then ignored those facts and basic reason to push your BS narrative. So I assume you did it again above...

You're easily one of the biggest Brady fanboys here Stan. I haven't got the time or patience to spar with smooth brains who think one player on rosters with 53 total players who only play offense control everything using magical powers.

Well, at least they have something to jump up and down about

 

[Wozzy]

Well, at least they have something to jump up and down about

Not sure what this means but…

There are great psychiatric options online nowadays where you can get help and discuss your clinical depression.

 

[crawhammer]

I didn't read any of this tripe above.. like none of it.

The last time you argued with me you got destroyed with facts and data, then ignored those facts and basic reason to push your BS narrative. So I assume you did it again above...

You're easily one of the biggest Brady fanboys here Stan. I haven't got the time or patience to spar with smooth brains who think one player on rosters with 53 total players who only play offense control everything using magical powers.

Stan? I don't get it.

Look, I asked a simple question (to another member mind you), yet you ignited a full blown Tom vs Bill debate and then complained it as you actively participated in the discussion. Of course you bail out in typical fashion with straw man. No one ever said Brady "controls everything." You apparently can't grasp the simple concept of distributing credit. Yes, it's a team sport, with many contributing players and coaches, but they're not all equally important. In reality someone is the most important. Generally speaking the quarterback is the most important individual among players and coaches of any team. Brady is the most obvious example of that given his success throughout the course of his long career. From the first to the last Super Bowl championship in New England he was the only player who was there from start to finish. A 100% turnover of teammates. Then he won with a different franchise with an entirely different coaching staff. Right, Brady doesn't control everything or have magical powers but he's exceptionally talented, hardworking, durable and resourceful. He's been the greatest part of those "great teams" he played on. You just can't or won't admit it.

 

[Wozzy]

Stan? I don't get it.

Look, I asked a simple question (to another member mind you), yet you ignited a full blown Tom vs Bill debate and then complained it as you actively participated in the discussion. Of course you bail out in typical fashion with straw man. No one ever said Brady "controls everything." You apparently can't grasp the simple concept of distributing credit. Yes, it's a team sport, with many contributing players and coaches, but they're not all equally important. In reality someone is the most important. Generally speaking the quarterback is the most important individual among players and coaches of any team. Brady is the most obvious example of that given his success throughout the course of his long career. From the first to the last Super Bowl championship in New England he was the only player who was there from start to finish. A 100% turnover of teammates. Then he won with a different franchise with an entirely different coaching staff. Right, Brady doesn't control everything or have magical powers but he's exceptionally talented, hardworking, durable and resourceful. He's been the greatest part of those "great teams" he played on. You just can't or won't admit it.

Every thread you enter becomes a BIll versus Tom debate because you make it one.

“A better question than "what if the Patriots made the playoffs under Matt Cassel?" is what if the Patriots had Brady in 2008? What's the cap on that season?... 14 wins, the #1 seed, and another Super Bowl appearance? Sounds likely to me. What do you think? Not baiting you into a Tom vs Bill debate... I'm seriously just asking the question.” - Crawhammer

This ^ is you right?

You’re so FOS it’s coming out your ears Stan…

 

[crawhammer]

Every thread you enter becomes a BIll versus Tom debate because you make it one.

“A better question than "what if the Patriots made the playoffs under Matt Cassel?" is what if the Patriots had Brady in 2008? What's the cap on that season?... 14 wins, the #1 seed, and another Super Bowl appearance? Sounds likely to me. What do you think? Not baiting you into a Tom vs Bill debate... I'm seriously just asking the question.” - Crawhammer

This ^ is you right?

Right and my question was what if the Patriots had Brady in 2008? I didn't ask who's more important Tom or Bill. I was comparing the difference between Brady in 2007 and Cassel in 2008 and the subsequent implications.

This is your reply to my question about the 2008 season:

They had Brady in 2002, what happened?

In the decade between 2005 and 2013 when the team was paying Tom near top of the market QB money they won a lot of games, went to two Super Bowls but never won that ring.... what happened?

Every time Tom won a championship, every single one, he had a top five defense, a top special teams unit around him, had a good/great OL and good/great weapons.... but that was because of Tom and not Bill. Laughable...

You brought up two decades of football and the Tom vs Bill angle. Not me. I had even said I wasn't taking the conversation in that direction.

Also, Brady was mentioned by the second reply and numerous times before I even saw the thread. The top of page 2 another member asked the same question that I posed. You realistically can't think Brady wouldn't come up in a thread about the one season in his Patriots career that he wasn't available.

 

[Wozzy]

Right and my question was what if the Patriots had Brady in 2008? I didn't ask who's more important Tom or Bill. I was comparing the difference between Brady in 2007 and Cassel in 2008 and the subsequent implications.

This is your reply to my question about the 2008 season:

You brought up two decades of football and the Tom vs Bill angle. Not me. I had even said I wasn't taking the conversation in that direction.

Also, Brady was mentioned by the second reply and numerous times before I even saw the thread. The top of page 2 another member asked the same question that I posed. You realistically can't think Brady wouldn't come up in a thread about the one season in his Patriots career that he wasn't available.

Blah blah blah… just because you say “Not baiting you into a Tom vs Bill debate” a moment before doing exactly that doesn’t make a difference.

This thread was about Cassel, okay at least it’s about QB’s. The last time we had this same conversation it was about the draft… the topic could be about modern dance and you’d find a way to make it about Tom Brady’s magic powers. You’ve got a weird obsession Stan.

 

[sb1]

This isn't emphasized enough and many posters are in denial over this.

The problem with the division in the Brady/BB era was stability. Other than the Patriots the Bills Jets and Dolphins didn't have any long term stability at QB and coach. No question that helped the Patriots and I'm glad we might have dodged that bullet with Mac.

But was the AFCE really that bad of a division? Did some research.

Not counting the division winner the playoff teams from the AFC East in the BB/Brady era from 2001-2019:
Two wild card teams: 1 season
One wild card team: 7 seasons

I don't think that's way out of line with most other divisions in the league.

AFC North in the same timeframe:
Two wild card teams: 2
One wild card team: 8

NFC West:
Two wild card teams: 0
One wild card team: 9

The AFC East also had a streak of 10 seasons in a row and 12 out of 13 where they had a representative in the AFC Championship game.

Also the non Patriots AFC East had a "down" year just 3 times in the BB/Brady era -2007, 2012 and 2018 where the second place team that year was below .500. Both the NFC South and NFC West had 5 seasons where the second place team was below. 500. Also one season where the division winner was below .500. The NFC East also had two seasons where the division winner was 13-3 and every other team in the division was 6-10. Now that's a bad division. The AFC East never had a season like that in that era.

 

[crawhammer]

Blah blah blah… just because you say “Not baiting you into a Tom vs Bill debate” a moment before doing exactly that doesn’t make a difference.

This thread was about Cassel, okay at least it’s about QB’s. The last time we had this same conversation it was about the draft… the topic could be about modern dance and you’d find a way to make it about Tom Brady’s magic powers. You’ve got a weird obsession Stan.

I'm just another fan of the NFL and like talking about it. Just like you Woozzard.

The problem with the division in the Brady/BB era was stability. Other than the Patriots the Bills Jets and Dolphins didn't have any long term stability at QB and coach. No question that helped the Patriots and I'm glad we might have dodged that bullet with Mac.

But was the AFCE really that bad of a division? Did some research.

Not counting the division winner the playoff teams from the AFC East in the BB/Brady era from 2001-2019:
Two wild card teams: 1 season
One wild card team: 7 seasons

I don't think that's way out of line with most other divisions in the league.

AFC North in the same timeframe:
Two wild card teams: 2
One wild card team: 8

NFC West:
Two wild card teams: 0
One wild card team: 9

The AFC East also had a streak of 10 seasons in a row and 12 out of 13 where they had a representative in the AFC Championship game.

Also the non Patriots AFC East had a "down" year just 3 times in the BB/Brady era -2007, 2012 and 2018 where the second place team that year was below .500. Both the NFC South and NFC West had 5 seasons where the second place team was below. 500. Also one season where the division winner was below .500. The NFC East also featured two seasons where the division winner was 13-3 and every other team in the division was 6-10. Now that's a bad division. The AFC East never had a season like that in that era.

I don't think it matters that the AFC East was supposedly noncompetitive for the majority of the Brady/Belichick era. The Patriots were going to dominate the division anyway, especially once Brady hit his prime. The combination of an elite quarterback with a representative supporting cast and exceptional coaching was a winning formula. The supporting cast was below representative in 2006, 2013 and 2019 and they simply weren't good enough despite still managing a combined .500 postseason record (they could have even won the SB in '06 had they held onto a substantial lead against Indy). Also, I think the defenses were generally down seasons 2010-2017. The 2015 season was doomed by some really bad coaching. Then there was the controversial end of the 2017 season. Otherwise they were dominant and I think it shows by their record against the other elite conference team of that era.

Brady & Belichick vs elite AFC teams 2001-2019 (regular season & postseason):

Colts 15-4
Steelers 12-3
Chargers 9-2
Ravens 8-4

Combined regular season record vs those opponents
32-10

Combined postseason record vs those opponents
12-3

Combined regular season & postseason record vs those opponents
44-13
77% winning percentage

Brady & Belichick vs AFC East teams 2001-2019 (regular season & postseason):
87-23
79% winning percentage

The numbers bare it out, the Patriots were dominating everyone, the supposed state of the division hardly mattered.

 

[sb1]

If the Pats made the playoffs under Cassel, we host the Ravens in the Wild Card round instead of the Dolphins hosting them.

Somehow the Ravens won that game comfortably with Flacco going 9-23 135 yards 60 rating. I don't think Cassel throws 4 INTs like Pennington did.

 

[Ring 6]

The problem with the division in the Brady/BB era was stability. Other than the Patriots the Bills Jets and Dolphins didn't have any long term stability at QB and coach. No question that helped the Patriots and I'm glad we might have dodged that bullet with Mac.

But was the AFCE really that bad of a division? Did some research.

Not counting the division winner the playoff teams from the AFC East in the BB/Brady era from 2001-2019:
Two wild card teams: 1 season
One wild card team: 7 seasons

I don't think that's way out of line with most other divisions in the league.

AFC North in the same timeframe:
Two wild card teams: 2
One wild card team: 8

NFC West:
Two wild card teams: 0
One wild card team: 9

The AFC East also had a streak of 10 seasons in a row and 12 out of 13 where they had a representative in the AFC Championship game.

Also the non Patriots AFC East had a "down" year just 3 times in the BB/Brady era -2007, 2012 and 2018 where the second place team that year was below .500. Both the NFC South and NFC West had 5 seasons where the second place team was below. 500. Also one season where the division winner was below .500. The NFC East also had two seasons where the division winner was 13-3 and every other team in the division was 6-10. Now that's a bad division. The AFC East never had a season like that in that era.

It’s a circular argument. The division is bad because only the patriots win it therefore the patriots only won it because it was bad.

 

[Wozzy]

It’s a circular argument. The division is bad because only the patriots win it therefore the patriots only won it because it was bad.

And because the Patriots kicked the crap out of everybody in every division… it’s a terrible argument.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Joe Gibbs won Super Bowls with Joe Theismann, Doug Williams and Mark Rypien... that's impressive.
Bill Parcells won Super Bowls with Jeff Hosteler and Phil Simms, and something Belichick wouldn't have done, got to a Super Bowl with Drew Bledsoe... that's impressive.
Bill Belichick won 10 games with a backup quarterback and loaded supporting cast but was 4-5 against teams with a .500 or better record and didn't make the postseason... coming off an undefeated regular season and failing to even make the postseason is an epic fail.
Belichick with Brissett lost 0-16 to Buffalo in Foxboro. A few games later Belichick with Brady pummeled Buffalo 41-25 on the road. I wonder what the difference was?


Did Brady put the team up 14-10 with 2:45 left? Yes he did. Did the defense allow a 12-play 83-yard game-winning drive to Eli Manning? Yes they did.

They scored 17 points in the second Super Bowl. Again the team was up late in the game, 17-15 with 3:46 left and NYG backed up at their 12-yardline. Again the defense allowed a 9-play 88-yard game-winning drive to Eli Manning. The defense wasn't good in that game either, they gave up 400 yards and couldn't get off the field on several occasions. NYG won the TOP 37:05 to 22:15. The Patriots defense was pretty bad that entire season.


I can recognize the obvious when it's smacking you right in the face... Brady has more Super Bowl rings (7) than John Elway, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers combined (6). Brady's had a better career than Joe Montana and Steve Young combined. Brady's the only quarterback with Super Bowl rings and MVPs with two franchises. I'm wouldn't call him a hero but he is a uniquely accomplished NFL player... he simply has been better than everyone else. In Tampa Bay too with an entirely different coaching staff... Brady never missed a beat, in fact he's had his best back-to-back seasons of his career in a Bucs uniform.


It's just a coincidence that Belichick has won 17 of 18 divisions with Brady and 0 of 9 with all other quarterbacks? This isn't a "hater" narrative... if Belichick doesn't win another division before he retires then it's going to be a glaring difference (with and without Brady).

It's amazing that you continue to troll and the mods do absolutely nothing about it.

Gibbs and Parcells won in an era where defenses dominated the league. By your logic, Doug Pederson won with a backup QB like Foles and is therefore better than Belichick. Guess why Parcells won two super bowls with the Giants? Yup, it was Belichick's defenses. You probably didn't even watch football back then and only started when the Pats began to win super bowls.

In SB 42, Brady put the team up 14-10 primarily because, as Joe Buck noted in the broadcast, the Giants D was gassed. In no way shape or form should the Pats' defense bear the blunt of the blame for that game. Manning/Tyree made a once in a century miracle play similar to the Immaculate Reception. Crap happens. In any event Brady had enough time (28 seconds and 3 TOs) to get the team into field goal range - you know, like how Matthew Stafford did it last year against the Bucs. Don't tell me that's impossible because Stafford did it and so did Mahomes. Besides, it's not Belichick's fault that Asante was covering the wrong guy. And wasn't it Tommy Boy who laughed at the idea of scoring only 17 points? Maybe he should have put up.

And perhaps you should do some research. Brady is not the only QB to have won the super bowl and MVP with two different franchises. Manning did it first.

Perhaps you can explain to me why Tommy Boy only played well last year against crappy teams. Here's a breakdown for you:

vs bad teams - 31 TDs, 5 INTs (Atl, Mia, Phi, Chi, Wsh, NYG, Atl, Car, Atl, NYJ)

vs good teams - 12 TDs, 7 INTs (Dal, LAR, NE, NO, IND, Buf, NO)

In other words, he lit up the worst teams in the NFL while playing above average vs everyone else. Next year he doesn't have Gronk or Brown and is playing a varsity schedule.