OT: Bills new stadium public funding

[Ring 6]

Ladies and gentlemen,

Mr Dunning-Kruger.

Yes, you have accurately described yourself.

 

[Pape]

Yes, you have accurately described yourself.

Had to go look that one up, didn't you slappy?

 

[Ring 6]

Had to go look that one up, didn't you slappy?

That inferiority complex of yours is crippling isn’t it?

 

[patman52]

Any economic analysis of stadiums will tell you they are all losers because the vast majority of the money is local. Doesn't matter how many fans they get.

In any analysis, the net plus is only the income tax and profits tax. That's it.

In this respect, the Bills are absolutely no different than the Mets and Yankees, except for the fact that the NFL teams make a lot more money on their media deals.

And, of course, the fact that NYC has 2 subsidized stadiums while this will be the first new build for the rest of the state.

the yankee stadium was a 42/62 split with the public picking up the bigger share. but again The yankees have the bigger payroll, employ many more people. And the stadium draws almost 4 mill total customers a year. Stadiums are a loss leader, but baseball stadiums that turn 4 mill customers a year (pre covid) creat much more revenue for surrounding businesses than 800,000 football fans and maybe 4 concerts a year. And the bills stadium is not built for the rest of the state when 3/4 of the population of the state lives with 100 miles of the city.

 

[Pape]

That inferiority complex of yours is crippling isn’t it?

Lol. The harder you try, the more I laugh, at you.

I've never changed my user name to try and hide my identity because everybody hated me... So, I ask, do you want to bring an inferiority complex into this? Do you really want to go down that road Andy?

 

[upstater1]

the yankee stadium was a 42/62 split with the public picking up the bigger share. but again The yankees have the bigger payroll, employ many more people. And the stadium draws almost 4 mill total customers a year. Stadiums are a loss leader, but baseball stadiums that turn 4 mill customers a year (pre covid) creat much more revenue for surrounding businesses than 800,000 football fans and maybe 4 concerts a year. And the bills stadium is not built for the rest of the state when 3/4 of the population of the state lives with 100 miles of the city.

Yankees are at what will be the NFL salary cap next year, and the NFL cap is CERTAIN to exceed any MLB payroll in the future.

The team revenue is also a huge part of this and the Bills make more than the Yankees.

Also, Mets and Yankees pre covid averaged between 2.2 and 3.3m respectively, not 4m.

Regardless, there's such a thing as equity, and the 60/40 split you cite above seems to be in play here.

I am against this much public funding for this, but I'm also a lot less sympathetic to hearing this from downstaters who already got new stadiums.

 

[mgteich]

Well I just read about ANOTHER stadium deal that is suppose to up in Tenn. It supposedly cost $2.1BILLION (so you can add about $200MM to the final cost. The NFL is reportedly kicking in $750MM the owners about $250 MM and the state and county a whopping ONE pont ONE BILLION dollars. All for a building that MIGHT be used for about 20 times a year. God I wish I owned an NFL franchise where I can have the ownership of a $2.1 BILLION asset for about 10 cents on the dollar..

The situations aren't at all comparable.

 

[Triumph]

The Bills stadium is fine, not a dump at all. I generally question what people really want in a gameday experience.

I go, watch the game, leave. What else am I looking for? Sushi?

The Bills stadium is turning 50 years old and engineering assessments claim that its not worth saving. Lipstick on a pig fades.

The Colts stadium is really modern and nice. The Cardinals stadium is awesome. The Bills stadium is not Fenway.

 

[upstater1]

The Bills stadium is turning 50 years old and engineering assessments claim that its not worth saving. Lipstick on a pig fades.

The Colts stadium is really modern and nice. The Cardinals stadium is awesome. The Bills stadium is not Fenway.

I live in Buffalo and have read structural assessments that it's perfectly fine. It's been rebuilt just 12 years ago for $300m that addressed any structural issues. There's nothing wrong with it.

In general, we go through stadiums like it's nothing. I find no problems when I go to a Bills game. It's much nicer than Foxboro Stadium was.

 

[The Brandon Five]

But at least now we are in the same neighborhood. The projection that it will take 30 years to go from $25MM to $55MM is ridiculously conservative. They will probably hit $55MM in about half that time.

Furthermore, it's not like the stadium just disappears after 30 years. Yeah the lease is 30 years and that is what we have been using for our calculations but realistically, the life of the stadium will be longer. Their current dump is turning 50 next year. So how about we extend those exact same calculations out another 20 years?

You said to add $1 million per year. So that is what I used.

So you think the tax revenues will almost double in 15 years. That's about 5.4% annualized.

Which inflation assumption do you want to use?

 

[XLIX]

You said to add $1 million per year. So that is what I used.

Right. And I am also saying that even that $1 million is a ridiculously low estimate for what will actually be added.

So you think the tax revenues will almost double in 15 years. That's about 5.4% annualized.

Well, 5.4% annualized is a very reasonable estimate when we consider that over the past 10 years, the salary cap has increased by an average of 5.7% per year (and that includes the pandemic year where the cap actually went down one season).

Look, the bottom line is this: You are using the low end of every estimate imaginable to make your point. Realistically, we know the salary cap will continue to go up significantly with all the new revenues the NFL is bringing in. Realistically, we can reasonably assume the life of the stadium will actually be longer than 30 years. When you factor all that in, it is very easy to see how the state did not make a bad deal with this funding plan.

 

[patman52]

Yankees are at what will be the NFL salary cap next year, and the NFL cap is CERTAIN to exceed any MLB payroll in the future.

The team revenue is also a huge part of this and the Bills make more than the Yankees.

Also, Mets and Yankees pre covid averaged between 2.2 and 3.3m respectively, not 4m.

Regardless, there's such a thing as equity, and the 60/40 split you cite above seems to be in play here.

I am against this much public funding for this, but I'm also a lot less sympathetic to hearing this from downstaters who already got new stadiums.

19 concert dates at 50,000 per is another 1mill.

 

[Triumph]

I live in Buffalo and have read structural assessments that it's perfectly fine. It's been rebuilt just 12 years ago for $300m that addressed any structural issues. There's nothing wrong with it.

In general, we go through stadiums like it's nothing. I find no problems when I go to a Bills game. It's much ni

The stadium is not fine and thats why its being replaced.

After 50 years its time. You bled every mile out of that jalopy. 12 years since the last upgrade indicates that its time to sink more funds into the money pit. The Bears renovated Soldier field approximately 16 years ago and they are building a new stadium. The Chiefs renovated Arrowhead 12 years ago and are talking new stadium.

 

[upstater1]

The stadium is not fine and thats why its being replaced.

After 50 years its time. You bled every mile out of that jalopy. 12 years since the last upgrade indicates that its time to sink more funds into the money pit. The Bears renovated Soldier field approximately 16 years ago and they are building a new stadium. The Chiefs renovated Arrowhead 12 years ago and are talking new stadium.

You can deny it all you want but the county that owns the stadium did private studies that were uncovered by journalists and sunshine laws. Go argue with the structural engineers who determined it is still in good shape.

 

[Triumph]

You can deny it all you want but the county that owns the stadium did private studies that were uncovered by journalists and sunshine laws. Go argue with the structural engineers who determined it is still in good shape.

They should call it "Billed Back Better." Has a nice ring to it.

Surely you like that.

 

[upstater1]

I got this from a site behind a paywall but here is the assessment:

A second study of stadium conditions, commissioned by Erie County, was conducted last year by DiDonato Associates. That study said the stadium “remains in overall fair to good condition.” It recommended $43.9 million in work: $27.2 million to the stadium itself, the balance going towards ancillary work including the Bills practice dome.

In addition, the engineers recommended that the upper deck needed extensive workin the next 5 to 7 years with an estimated investment of $96 million.

What the county study found​

It’s true that Highmark Stadium, which opened as Rich Stadium in 1973, has nearly 50 years of wear and tear.
It’s also true, based on modern NFL standards, that the decades-old stadium isn’t in the same category of newer, high-tech venues that have become more commonplace in many NFL markets.

It’s worth noting, however, that since 1993, the stadium has undergone significant upgrades, largely at taxpayer expense. The county’s engineering report lists improvements that total $250 million.

While the county’s engineering firm last year identified problems with Highmark Stadium’s upper deck and water and electrical systems, it concluded that the venue “remains in overall fair to good condition.”

The engineering firm observed that deterioration within the frame has “continued to increase” since a prior condition assessment completed in 2016.

“It is expected that [it] will require increasingly higher costs to maintain the structural integrity and serviceability of the frames,” the study concluded.

The county’s engineering consultant determined that, at the continued rate of deterioration, the upper deck seating panels would require full replacement within five to seven years.

“It is recommended planning for major rehabilitation of the upper decks be started,” the study notes.

Erie County officials have said Highmark Stadium is safe, with Poloncarz telling the Buffalo News in August that the upper deck was reinforced three years earlier. He also told the News that, based on 2018 recommendations from structural engineers, the county spent $2.25 million to renovate the upper deck.

“If there was any question regarding the safety of the facility, we would not let any attendee into it for a game or other event,” Poloncarz said at the time.

To assess the county’s current engineering report, Investigative Post retained Schenne, president of an East Aurora engineering firm that bears his name. He is licensed in 20 states, including New York, and has worked on more than 1,000 projects in the Buffalo area over the years. Among his projects: an assessment of the stability of the Great Northern Elevator on the city’s waterfront and the design engineering of Rocco Termini’s Thin Man Brewery on Chandler Street.

Schenne agreed that the stadium is safe for fans.

“I believe the structure is safe now and there’s nothing in the study or my personal observations, having been at that stadium, that there’s anything unsafe about it,” he said.

“I believe that stadium has got good bones, if you will. It’s 50 years old. It needs some repair and refurbishment, no doubt about it, but the estimate that I saw put together by DiDonato Associates seemed to me very reasonable and an accurate way to approach what refurbishment costs might be,” he said.

-----------------------------

There was an unredacted second study of a renovation plan for the current stadium. It was ordered after the study was made by the county's own consultant firm. Only the second one was released to the public. Journalists then sued and won the right to see the unredacted first study. That's where the above information comes from. The same structural engineer that looked at the first study also had this to say about the second study:

-------------------------------

Schenne questioned several of AECOM’s big-ticket recommendations. For example, soft costs, such as permits and fees charged by attorneys, architects and planners, were estimated at 30 percent of total expenses, or $199 million. Schenne said soft costs are typically about 10 percent of the overall price tag. Another example, noted by Investigative Post, was the recommendation of $31.7 million in work to improve food preparation facilities. The stadium’s current concession operator is Delaware North, whose senior vice president is the governor’s husband.
Again, the state maintains the study it commissioned envisioned a more comprehensive re-do of the stadium. For example, AECOM’s options to address what it termed “operational constraints and challenges” included:

• Moving the main concourse and expanding it to accommodate increased foot traffic.
• Rebuilding the east end zone to provide increased vehicular access to the field.
• Improving team locker rooms.

In total, the report listed a total construction cost of $663 million, including the $199 million in soft costs.
The consultants indicated that they considered it “highly likely” that a renovation would encounter “challenges throughout the design and construction phases” that could drive estimated costs higher.

----------------------------------

Pretty interesting that the first study came in at $140m while the second study came in at $660m, but the second study included $230m of pure vapor intended to drive up the costs of the project so that it would suffer by comparison. Not to mention the totally weird and useless suggestion rebuild the east end zone.

 

[patfanken]

Quick question. After this $2.2Billion boondoggle is built,, just who is going to own it. Pegula, the state or the county?

 

[upstater1]

Quick question. After this $2.2Billion boondoggle is built,, just who is going to own it. Pegula, the state or the county?

Well, it's $1.4 billion, $600m from the state, $250m from the county, $200m from the NFL, $350m from Pegula. The county will own it but it will incur an additional $250m in operating costs over the next decade. Pegula makes the money from concessions. The county charges the Bills rent.

 

[upstater]

.

 

[50-yard-line]

What was the phrase “you have to vote for it to find out what’s in it”

A ******** zombie lie used by Republicans to make people think they had a point.