Belichick's record without Brady since the Brady era began

[Brotherblues]

This sounds like an argument that Bill needs a QB to be successful. I don’t think anyone here would disagree…

And yet I found someone who does and it drove me explain further. Think I'll stop now.

 

[Pats1971]

Reducing variation of factors that were different is not cherry picking. Brady won with the teams as they were constructed from '01 to '19. We happen to have a sample of how *those* teams fared when Brady was not in the lineup, particularly when there was something approaching league average capability at QB.

I think you are confusing me with someone who wants to diminish Brady's impact to prop up Bellichick's. Not the case at all. My only point is that BB deserves credit for giving Brady good, well coached teams during his tenure. The success of *those* teams when Brady was sidelined is proof. Obviousy they were better when the goat was captaining the ship and reached heights that only the goat could take them to. But they were good regardless, in large part thanks to their coach.

Yeah again, I take what is, I do not leave out seasons, or how the team was constructed without Brady. If a team was constructed worse when Brady was not there, then that is a more significant indication of Brady than anything else. Bill with and without. Brady with and without. Thats it. If we are saying Bill made Brady in a factory with some spare parts then he should have made another Qb like that too. He was the head coach, there are no circumstances, his QB was who he brought in. They didnt have success when Brady didnt play unless we only count the games you want to count. 2000 5-11. 2001 0-2 2008 11-5 which was 5 games worse the year before when Brady was in with the same team, 2020 7-9 which again was also 5 games worse than the year before when Brady was in....in fact it looks like Brady is worth 5 games when he is in. 5 games a year is pretty damn significant.

Brady was worth 5 wins a year to belichick...

 

[TheRainMaker]

To me 2k was kinda like 2020 in that is was a reset year. It was all the Pete Carrol players.

They were mostly Parcells players who Bill had already coached.

 

[Wozzy]

Every team and coach needs good QB play to compete. Mac’s numbers now are the equivalent to Tom’s in 2001, it wasn’t magic QB fairy dust… it was good efficient mistake free QB play.

Revisionists want to pretend it was magic, not magic by Viniteiri or Law or Seymour… just magic QB play by Tom. It wasn’t.

BB drafted a good QB, a QB that played the more efficient style of play he wanted. BB drafted Brady, now he’s drafted Mac… it isn’t magic. They’re good QB’s, Tom’s had the good fortune to play behind great O-Lines and defenses for two decades and under more favorable rules than QB’s of the past.

If I hire talented people as a manager I get credited with their good work. Who was more important… the guy who hired all the great staff.

 

[moosekill]

Glad we could have a thread where the Toompa fans could leave their forum and come over and crap on BB for a bit. Hi 1971, Am and Rain. Glad you could say hi and are all doing well! Probably time for you to go back to your "special place" where you can talk about your team some more, so the rest of us can chat about the Patriots.

 

[LightSkinSmurf]

Meh, not in the mood to argue about this while the patriots are in the middle of a playoff push. Maybe later.

 

[Dingleberry]

Somehow, BB has the same number of wins this season as TB. With a rookie QB.

From pink hat to red jersey. Bill didn't blow anything. I think she's projecting...

 

[Rob0729]

The Pats lost 5 more games than the previous year with the same team...It just so happens the team was 16-0 the prior year. When teams lose 5 more games the next year that is a pretty big drop off. In fact from 2019 to 2020 they lost 5 more games.... The 2008 team with that pathetic schedule should not have lost a game to be honest. .386 schedule I have still not seen one as bad. I think we go 18-0 that year if Brady didnt get hurt.

Again. They won 11 games. That is good enough to get into the playoffs almost every year. It was a fluke. All with a QB who last started a game in high school. I guarantee you most coaches wouldn’t have gotten to .500 in that situation.

I get you anti-Belichick agenda. Stop going to ridiculous lengths to disparage him.

 

[sb1]

The Pats lost 5 more games than the previous year with the same team...It just so happens the team was 16-0 the prior year. When teams lose 5 more games the next year that is a pretty big drop off. In fact from 2019 to 2020 they lost 5 more games.... The 2008 team with that pathetic schedule should not have lost a game to be honest. .386 schedule I have still not seen one as bad. I think we go 18-0 that year if Brady didnt get hurt.

16-0 to 11-5 is not a small drop at all. The exact same regression as 12-4 to 7-9 like last year.

Sure we can say they didn’t crater without Brady like the Colts did without Manning. Yay?

As for an undefeated run that would have been tough imo. Defense wasn’t that good.

 

[Doctor DDS]

16-0 to 11-5 is not a small drop at all. The exact same regression as 12-4 to 7-9 like last year.

Sure we can say they didn’t crater without Brady like the Colts did without Manning. Yay?

As for an undefeated run that would have been tough imo. Defense wasn’t that good.

Yeah again, I take what is, I do not leave out seasons, or how the team was constructed without Brady. If a team was constructed worse when Brady was not there, then that is a more significant indication of Brady than anything else. Bill with and without. Brady with and without. Thats it. If we are saying Bill made Brady in a factory with some spare parts then he should have made another Qb like that too. He was the head coach, there are no circumstances, his QB was who he brought in. They didnt have success when Brady didnt play unless we only count the games you want to count. 2000 5-11. 2001 0-2 2008 11-5 which was 5 games worse the year before when Brady was in with the same team, 2020 7-9 which again was also 5 games worse than the year before when Brady was in....in fact it looks like Brady is worth 5 games when he is in. 5 games a year is pretty damn significant.

Brady was worth 5 wins a year to belichick...

Then what happened in 2009? Did they get the 5 additional wins back that year? Never understood why the 5 game drop from 2007 to 2008 is always mentioned but the drop of 1 game from 2008 to 2009 rarely is. Maybe it's because it is not just the QB impacting W-L record?

If Brady had been suspended for the entire 2016 season instead of the 4 games and Jimmy G stayed healthy it seems reasonable to think the Pats go 12-4. If they played Brissett the entire season they are probably closer to 8-8. Do we give the QB extra credit if their backup stinks?

The year Manning got injured was a rebuilding year for the Colts so they were unlikely to be good anyways and they replaced him with one of the worst QB's in the league. I don't give Manning "extra credit" for that fact. The following year with Luck at the helm and some additional pieces they were good again. Similar to what the Pats went through in 2020. They purged the roster to clean up the cap and took a flier on Newton. It did not work out and the record reflected it. With competent QB play again in 2021 they are now a playoff contender. Not that complicated.

 

[captain insano]

Coaches need excellent players to be successful. When you don't have good players, your record suffers. it's that simple.

 

[thebooradley]

Well which is worse, lumping in cle years or ignoring years belichick coached the pats because he had a losing record that year? I do not lump in or remove years. He has a record as a Cle coach, he has a record as the pats coach, he has a record overall, he has a record without Brady, he has a record with Brady. His record with Brady is the best of all time, his record without him is not as good. Not sure why this is such a weird thing for people.

It's comparing apples and oranges. BB was finding his way as a head coach in Cleveland and honing his craft, and he didn't have an owner like Robert Kraft supporting him. As somebody else on this discussion pointed out, he has a very respectable 60% win rate without Brady since 2008.

 

[thebooradley]

It's not just the Cleveland years. He is 33-32 with the Patriots which is a drastically worse winning percentage than his years with Brady. But overall, I agree with you regarding Bill building a competitive team in the cap era. I think this is because he is also such a good coach so he is able to put players, especially his defensive guys in positions to win.

I am excited to see what he is able to do with Mac and if Mac has that special quality like Brady to win in the post-season. Hopefully we start to find out this year.

He's 33-32 with the Patriots if you include his first season, which was a rebuilding year with a roster he had not yet had chance to build to his liking. You can't expect him to cook a good dinner if he's not been able to shop for the groceries

 

[VrabelJr]

Another notch in the belt that shouldn’t exist

 

[1960Pats]

No, it means the #2 offense in the league is going to score points when your offense turns it over three times giving them three more opportunities.

I'm sorry that I spent so much time away from this thread. Let me try to catch up.

Turnovers are one of the major keys to winning, especially if they happen near or in the red zone.

I have no beef with Lazar but it's crazy talk to use such a small sample size to judge coaches or players. There's no chance on God's green earth that I would want Eli over Brady or Coughlin over Belichick.

 

[1960Pats]

Yeah, the last time was because our rb fumbled heading into the end zone......let's knock it off..you don't have to get on our train, it's been rolling for a few weeks now.

I look at that as proof that the players are more responsible than the coaches. The best game plan in the world doesn't work without execution.

 

[1960Pats]

.

I have never understood the 'record without Brady' crap. Let's do this the other way.

Name me 3 other NFL teams in the year 2000, tell me the team/coach/starting-QB at the time that would have drafted Tom Brady in the 7th round or signed him as a UDFA, and within 4 years would have elevated Brady to be the NFL Starting Quarterback over their existing incumbent QB. I want to really pressure test this thesis. I think there are no teams besides New England where Brady would even have a legit chance.

We can go over BB's record all we want, point is Brady in all likelihood is selling insurance fulltime in 95% of the scenarios without William Belichick not only drafting him, but then keeping an unprecedented/rare 4th QB on a roster for a whole year, and then having the balls to bench his pro bowl massive-contract QB for this total-unknown guy. Most other NFL coaches are not like BB. This goes for JC Jackson, Edelman, Malcolm Butler, Stephen Neal as well. Some guys simply would have never had a NFL career, period, without Belichick. Every other NFL coach would have passed.

I don't deal with things that may have happened. Things that have happened are fair game though.

 

[1960Pats]

I agree. It matters to Bill for sure especially with Brady winning last year. I think if he can win a SB without Brady that will greatly enhance his coaching legacy. How could it not. It did wonders for Brady.

Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing.

 

[1960Pats]

The question is also, win what? Go .500? go 9-7? Or win superbowls, Bill needs or has needed more than a competent QB to win the superbowl. As you said some coaches have won with QB's that will be on nobodies list of all time greats.

The all-time greats are on defense if they aren't on offense.

 

[1960Pats]

Every team and coach needs good QB play to compete. Mac’s numbers now are the equivalent to Tom’s in 2001, it wasn’t magic QB fairy dust… it was good efficient mistake free QB play.

Revisionists want to pretend it was magic, not magic by Viniteiri or Law or Seymour… just magic QB play by Tom. It wasn’t.

BB drafted a good QB, a QB that played the more efficient style of play he wanted. BB drafted Brady, now he’s drafted Mac… it isn’t magic. They’re good QB’s, Tom’s had the good fortune to play behind great O-Lines and defenses for two decades and under more favorable rules than QB’s of the past.

If I hire talented people as a manager I get credited with their good work. Who was more important… the guy who hired all the great staff.

If that were the case then Kraft would be the most valuable and he isn't by a long shot. Writing checks is not as important as coaching and that's not as important as playing.