Freeney injury status (merged)

[onegameatatime]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

If "impact" means more dramatic plays, you take Freeney.

But Seymour ties up 2 blockers, holds his ground, pushes the pile, and his play allows others around him to compile stats.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

You really don't think with his talent, Freeney couldn't put on some pounds and play in the Pats system?

Or, a better question is, you don't think Belichick, who has proven he will tailor his game plans to his talent, wouldn't find a way to incorporate a talent like Freeney?

Freeney's RS career numbers (through 2006):

-74 games played in 5 seasons, including 16 games each of the last three and 14 in 2003. Rookie year: 12 games. Average of 14.80 per season.
-161 career tackles
-55 career sacks

Seymour's RS career numbers (through 2006):

-87 games played in 6 seasons. Rookie year: 13 games. Average of 14.50 per season.
-176 career tackles
-29.5 career sacks

Now, gut reaction, you watch a game and Seymour is in there and Freeney is in there.

Who do you notice more? Who makes more of an impact?

Honestly?

You CANNOT answer honestly and answer Seymour.

Say you love Seymour because he is a Patriot, say you love him because you're a homer for all things New England, say you plunked down $90 on a Seymour jersey and you just don't want to see him leave.

I will repsect all those answers.

But don't say Richard Seymour is more of an impact player than Dwight Freeney!

Freeney's fast, and he spins in a circle a lot. Mathis now also spins in a circle. One could say that Freeney therefore makes those around him better.

That said: the Patriots' run defense gets better or worse to different extents reflecting a variety of different factors: Is Harrison in? Is Seymour in? Are the Pats up a bunch of points? etc.

The Colts' run D gets better or worse based on one factor only: Is Bob Sanders in? If he is not, they are playing a sieve defense.

In the Pats' system, that special talent of spinning in a circle is not worth $10M a year. To be fair Freeney also has great speed. I am sure he could play adequately. But not to the level he's worth in the Colts' system, where the sack is a staple of the D, and pressure takes the form of sack or imminent threat of sack every play, with comparatively minimal competence in stopping the run using linemen (hence the Sanders difference.)

After Seymour cut his big deal, I think you can definitely say his play's declined, or in the case of injury, duh, just not been there at all. That's a valid point. But inserting Freeney into the Pats' D? Maybe if he were available at the price of a middling talent (which he won't be, because he's an outstanding talent, in a system like the Colts'.)

Okay, I came late to the party... so tell me for the general edification of the group how Freeney's a run-stuffer (usually with his back turned to the line of scrimmage.) Tell me how he can have an eye on each of two gaps, while he's rushing for all he's worth to get to the QB on every play.

I take it the tackle stats above are meant to illustrate that Freeney gets to the ballcarrier in the Colts' system... but the Pats' system is going to have comparatively impressive LB numbers, and comparatively unimpressive down lineman numbers. And of course, the same can be said of the Pats' other two down linemen, although Vince's numbers are getting insane of late.

But at the risk of being a broken record, the Pats are all about how many things you can do... starting with watching those two gaps. Someone has probably made the point that you contain the play more often in the NE defense, with linebackers often making the tackle, or even more so, the sack.

Are we talking about standing Freeney up as a linebacker? Again, other than as a pass rush specialist, how does that translate to exceptional performance for the Pats? The point's been made that he's small, and the counter is to beef him up. Well, what's the guarantee that he'll retain the speed when he adds the bulk? How about his coverage skills, or his read and react skills? Again, he looks damn impressive in game after game for the Colts, but pretty much doing one thing extremely well: getting to the QB.

I'm not saying he wouldn't be good, I'm just saying he wouldn't justify his extremely lucrative price, playing in the Pats system.

And if I've recapped points already made, please forgive... as I say, I came late to this party. But I see Indy as the perfect system for Freeney, who does not bring diversity, so much as a single very well-refined and well defined set of skills.

PFnV

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

Can we also get over this idea that Freeney is some kind of great pass rusher?
He has a total of 9 sacks in his last 25 games, over 2006-2007. 3.5 this year, 5.5 last year, which is about identical, less than .4 per game.
This is an average of 5.76 PER SEASON.
Here we have a guy given free reign to only rush the passer, and do nothing else, and he has significantly below average sack numbers.
Where is the impact of Dwight Freeney that this thread is talking about? 9 play in a season and a half is less impact than many back ups.
In fact, Jarvis Green has 11.5 sacks over the same time frame.
Jarvis Green, playing part time has 28% more sacks than Dwight Freeney. Oh, and Green makes plays vs the run too.
Freeney also has a grand total of 50 tackles in those 25 games, so while he is getting that less than a sack every other game, he spends the whole day making 2 tackles while teams are purposely running right at him.

Not only would I take Seymour over him, I'd take Warren, and I'd take Jarvis Green too.

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

do you actually watch the games?

Don't go there, dude. Of course, I watch games.

If you wanna start with immature cutdowns and s h i t, take it somewhere else.

We're having a football conversation/debate here.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

If "impact" means more dramatic plays, you take Freeney.

But Seymour ties up 2 blockers, holds his ground, pushes the pile, and his play allows others around him to compile stats.

We are talking about 9 plays in 25 games.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

Don't go there, dude. Of course, I watch games.

If you wanna start with immature cutdowns and s h i t, take it somewhere else.

We're having a football conversation/debate here.

I know you dislike Seymour, but you are championing a guy who has zero run D responsibility, yet can only muster 9 sacks in 25 games.
Quite frankly, Freeney isn't even a good DE. He is a liablity against the run. 3 years ago, when he was a good pass rusher, it balanced it a little bit, but he now gets fewer sacks than part-time player Jarvis Green.
What are you impressed with about Freeney? He is now even a below average pass rusher, when he is allowed to do nothing but set up his pass rush.

 

[JJDChE]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

You really don't think with his talent, Freeney couldn't put on some pounds and play in the Pats system?

Or, a better question is, you don't think Belichick, who has proven he will tailor his game plans to his talent, wouldn't find a way to incorporate a talent like Freeney?

Freeney's RS career numbers (through 2006):

-74 games played in 5 seasons, including 16 games each of the last three and 14 in 2003. Rookie year: 12 games. Average of 14.80 per season.
-161 career tackles
-55 career sacks

Seymour's RS career numbers (through 2006):

-87 games played in 6 seasons. Rookie year: 13 games. Average of 14.50 per season.
-176 career tackles
-29.5 career sacks

So, statistically, they are close.

Now, gut reaction: You watch a game and Seymour is in there and Freeney is in there.

Who do you notice more? Who makes more of an impact?

Honestly?

You CANNOT answer honestly and answer Seymour.

Say you love Seymour because he is a Patriot, say you love him because you're a homer for all things New England, say you love him because he is perfect for this particular system as it is constituted today. Heck, say you plunked down $90 on a Seymour jersey and you just don't want to see him leave!

I will repsect all those answers.

But don't say Richard Seymour is more of an IMPACT player than Dwight Freeney!

Unless you are joking here (I'm not sure you aren't), I've lost a lot of respect for your knowledge of the game of football.

While the two systems they play in are very different, if you compare them in their own environments, Seymour as a 3-4 DE vs. Freeney as a 4-3 DE. Seymour is far superior to Freeney.

Also, Freeney couldn't play in a 3-4 defense. This is where I wonder if you actually know what the difference is between a 3-4 and a 4-3. Where would he play? OLB? Based on the position he plays now there is no reason to believe he would be effective as a 3-4 OLB. He certainly couldn't play DE in a 3-4. He'd be about equivalent to Jarvis Green, if I had to guess. Seymour would be a dominant 4-3 DT.

The fact is, Seymour has HoF potential. Freeney will never even sniff the nominations. There are numerous 4-3 DEs superior to Freeney in the NFL. Seymour is the best 3-4 D lineman in the NFL.

I don;t know what you define as an IMPACT player, but Seymour is a BETTER player. That's not up for debate.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

I know you dislike Seymour, but you are championing a guy who has zero run D responsibility, yet can only muster 9 sacks in 25 games.
Quite frankly, Freeney isn't even a good DE. He is a liablity against the run. 3 years ago, when he was a good pass rusher, it balanced it a little bit, but he now gets fewer sacks than part-time player Jarvis Green.
What are you impressed with about Freeney? He is now even a below average pass rusher, when he is allowed to do nothing but set up his pass rush.

I'm in the Seymour camp. In defense of Freeney. You can't just measure sacks. You should factor in hurries. Just as you can't judge Big Sey by tackles. Because, double teams allow others to make plays. Did you hear Parcells before the Indy game? When discussing the fast vs big defense. The other guys on the panel were talking about the speed of the Indy defense. Tuna just says; "Give me the big guys."

 

[Flying Fungi]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

Don't go there, dude. Of course, I watch games.

If you wanna start with immature cutdowns and s h i t, take it somewhere else.

We're having a football conversation/debate here.

that was intended as neither an immature cutdown, nor s h i t

and I have made other points here as well. Seymour is a player around hwom a 3x Super Bowl Champion defense HAS been built.

or do you attribute 2001, 2003 and 2004 more to Ty Law or Rodney Harrison? Tedy Bruschi? tell me please, who was the anchor of those defenses?

I find the idea of Freeney being better than Seymour to be so 'out there' as to not merit a whole lot of justification. meanwhile, I would like to hear about how YOU justify your opinion. Freeney isn't even better than Colvin or Vrabel.

now...how's about lightening up a little? you posted a thread whose premise is suspect, and you are being called on it--did you expect otherwise?

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

Freeney was 56th (tied) in the NFL in sacks last year, and is 45th (tied) this year.
How in the world is that an impact DE?

A few more #s on Freeney.

Last year AMONG ALL DL,
he was 132nd in tackles. (Yup 32 teams x 4 DL only equals 128, so he is below the level of worst starter in the league in this stat)
he was 43rd in sacks. 43rd. How is that a GOOD pass rusher?

This year? He is 35th in sacks, and 72nd in tackles among all DL. (That whopping increase to 2.33 tackles a game drives him up to the 44th percentile of all DL)

Can we please recognize that this guy is simply a horrendously overhyped below average football player?
Early in his career he used to get some sacks. Sure, he is fast for a DE. But over a year and half of getting a total of 9 sacks, I think its pretty obvious that OTs have figured out how to block a guy who spins around and doesnt care about the run.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

I'm in the Seymour camp. In defense of Freeney. You can't just measure sacks. You should factor in hurries. Just as you can't judge Big Sey by tackles. Because, double teams allow others to make plays. Did you hear Parcells before the Indy game? When discussing the fast vs big defense. The other guys on the panel were talking about the speed of the Indy defense. Tuna just says; "Give me the big guys."

You cannot tell me that the guy who 43rd in sacks somehow gets a ton more hurries than the 42 guys who got more sacks.
Are we really trying to say, Freeneyis a dominant player because he just misses a whole lot of times, while actually sacking the QB less than the average player at his position?
That part of the hype. He must be good. The numbers suggest he is almost a non-factor,so there must be an unprovable vague way that he is great/ Aha, the pressure. Sorry, dont buy it. With little variation, the guy who creates the pressure and hurries is the same guy getting the sacks.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

We are talking about 9 plays in 25 games.

Excellent, excellent point to make about sack stats. I (and probably many others) made the same point about Samuel's int. stats during his almost-holdout: You do not change the season because of the big play that happens not even once a game.

You do greatly enhance otherwise solid play if you can add those big plays, but as you say, Freeney's a pass rush specialist.

It's like giving 80 million over 8 years to Kabeer G'Baja Biamilla. Remember him?

And can someone for the LOVE OF GOD, please tell me that Aaron Kampmann is Jewish? Okay that was a little off topic. It was the Green Bay pass rusher connection. It just seems he should be. That said, Aaron Schobel too, please.

Another "listening to sports radio driving up I-95" point: I had the Skins-Eagles game on. The Phillie announcers were comical. About every 3 plays, one of these guys was saying, "why aren't they sacking the quarterback?" or, "this would be a great time to sack the quarterback."

Yeah, well, sacking the quarterback is a lot like some processed food commercial, I forget which... "Anytime's a great time for sacking the quarterback." You can work at it, you can send in a specialist to do it, and you love that one or two plays when it happens. But if you think that's going to win you games, you're mistaken. I'll take a consistent run-stopping D any day of the week, and, as the saying goes, twice on Sunday.

PFnV

 

[primetime]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

That said, Aaron Schobel too, please.

Speaking of Schobel, he's far better than Freeney. Responsible against the run and a great pass rusher. Chris Kelsay, on the other side of the line, is nearly as good. Two great bookends for the underrated Bills defense.

 

[JJDChE]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

It's pretty clear that opposing lineman have figured out Freeney. I mean, the guy only has ONE MOVE. He can't bull rush, he can't stop the run. Reggie White is rolling in his grave with the talk about this guy being a great DE. He couldn't carry Reggie's jock.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

No! You DID NOT just say that!

You're laughing right now, right?

"Got old Armen on that one! LOL!", right?

You're not really suggesting you'd take a guy who plays 7-9 games a season and has a backup who is arguably more effective than he is over the highest-impact-RPM-motor-running D-Lineman in the NFL, are you? ARE YOU?

Can you even IMAGINE Freeney on this team? With Adalius Thomas and Vrabel and Warren and Wilfork?

Oh, my God, you're talking late '70's Steelers, the greatest D-Line ever assembled!

Wow! The Kool-Aid has permeated deep!

I am certain - I KNOW - Belichick disagrees with you. So does Pioli.

If they could trade Seymour for Freeney tomorrow, straight up, it's done!

It looks like Armen smoked the wacky weed again.

Freeney would have to move to OLB in the Pats defense. He's too small to play DE in the 3-4.

As for your other babbling, you don't know jack about what BB and Pioli would do. My guess is that they would NOT trade Seymour for Freeney because Seymour is a better fit at DE in the 3-4.

Also, Seymour averages 14.8 games a season (not including play-offs) . Missing the 7 games this year will bring that down, but he's still playing in a lot more than the assinine 7-9 you claimed.

 

[Fixit]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

He couldn't carry Reggie's jock.

He sure could spin it dry out of the washing machine, though.

 

[cartmen]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

the Pats already have a Freeney clone. We call him Jarvis Green. A speed rusher who can struggle against the run and we pay him peanuts.

PS Jarvis Green has had more sacks in far less time than Freeney over the last 2 years. In a scheme that is not supposed to hinder many sacks. Go ahead argue that one

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

Not to mention that the Colts losing Freeney is much more serious than the Pats losing Seymour for the following reasons:

1) The Pats have greater talent and depth on the defensive line than the Colts

2) New England is accustomed to playing without Seymour due to his chronic injury history

3) Freeney is a player of greater impact than Seymour

(and don't anyone even start arguing that you'd take Seymour over Freeney, because if you do, you're just whacked. WHACKED!)

I would take Seymour over Freeney in a second. No hesitation. The only thing that would even slightly worry me is his injury history, but, after last night, I think we can call it a wash.

 

[PittPatriot]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

I would trade Matt Light for Dwight Freeney straight up.
That way Peyton Manning's career could be shortened a few years with Matt's ability to provide 'virtual layers of protection.'

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

Don't go there, dude. Of course, I watch games.

If you wanna start with immature cutdowns and s h i t, take it somewhere else.

We're having a football conversation/debate here.

To actually have a debate, you actually have to know what you are talking about. So far, you haven't proven that at all.