Sad to see BB's legacy ripped apart like this

[Ian]

And I'm not saying Belichick is beyond criticism. But I am saying his body of work is such (we just won a title three seasons ago) where he does deserve a little more benefit of the doubt. It's October, I'd like to see where we are in December and what's transpired before I pass judgment. If this team is making significant strides and finishes strong, I feel like people here might find 2022 could be a year where the outlook could end up becoming completely different.

 

[Ian]

This ^ is the funniest part of all this, for years the Brady zealots said when Tom leaves watch what happens, it will takes decades before they find another good QB... one season later and poof... Mac Jones.

Oh yeah, and the #1 DT taken off the draft board as well...

Boy, Bill sure sucks at his job lol!

I do agree with this take. I've already seen some people who seem to be rooting for failure for the sake of being right. It's OK to have opinions and to be wrong. I have zero issue taking the "L" and moving on. Won't be the first, definitely won't be the last and I'm definitely not stubborn enough to make myself look worse hoping for the outcome that obviously is bad for everybody.

 

[50-yard-line]

The thing with Brady is he brings a lot more to a team than just what's on the field on game day. Look at the Bucs.

So why couldn't he have a winning season anywhere he goes?

The Bucs' Winston ut up 510 passing years the year before Brady went there. OJ Howard, Cam Brate, Mike Evans, Chris Godwin - all there (Evans and Godwin put up almost 2500 yards between them with Winston), as well as top 10 picks - Vea, White, Wirfs - all over the place. power rankings had them around 5th before the season started for a reason.

Of course, Brady made a huge difference. Of course. But that team was only a couple of pieces short, and they got the best piece of all. Without taking anything away from Brady, the GOAT, I think that if, say, a Murray or Allen or Mahomes or Wilson went there (and Gronk, AB, Fournette, etc. join in), they probably still win the SB.

And a great QB (only that position in today's NFL) probably means more than a great head coach, but it's closer than you seem to admit.

Would Brady have been given the chance to become the goat without the Pats and BB? Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on that. He was a big part of the 01, 03, and 04 wins, but so was Ty Law, so were McGinniss, Seymore and many other great players, and so was, particularly in '01, the best coaching.

Without Brady, but with another competent QB, I'd guess that BB wins 2-3 SBs. Without BB, IF he was given the chance, I'd give Brady about the same. Happy to see them together for so long, sad about how it ended. Brady should be breaking all the records in a Patriots' uniform.

 

[50-yard-line]

And what are all you Bill's The Bestest Evah! jerkoffs gonna say when this team has double-digit losses at the end of the season?

That anyone complaining has been ridiculously spoiled by success. I say it now, to myself at least, every time I read half the posts on this board.

 

[Calhoun44]

The thing with Brady is he brings a lot more to a team than just what's on the field on game day. Look at the Bucs.

So why couldn't he have a winning season anywhere he goes?

It may be true, but the reason Brady is as disciplined and acts like a coach on and off the field is because of all those years with BB. Nobody can ever convince me that Brady would be the same QB he is today if he hadn't been with BB for all those years. Brady deserves all the credit for being the sponge that he is and having a brain like a micro-computer to process that info, but in my opinion, BB fed that brain and nurtured him better than any other coach could have. That is why they made a great pair and that is why Brady can succeed now on another team. Whereas BB has to start that feeding process all over again and create his next (I hope) high level QB.

 

[Ian]

Of course, Brady made a huge difference. Of course. But that team was only a couple of pieces short, and they got the best piece of all. Without taking anything away from Brady, the GOAT, I think that if, say, a Murray or Allen or Mahomes or Wilson went there (and Gronk, AB, Fournette, etc. join in), they probably still win the SB.

That's definitely true, but what sets Brady apart is his resume, his work ethic, and the fact he holds everyone accountable. That's the big difference. Obviously, Bill set up the culture and the consistency, and he taught Brady what it took - if he put in the work - to be great. Brady embraced it and took it to another level, that's what makes him so special and that's why it annoys me that they let his age overshadow that and didn't keep him here.

Either way, Brady definitely should also get a lot of the credit for what happened. All that did was show me that Arians was smart enough to stay out of the way and set his ego aside. But I still believe you don't end up with one without the other. Brady wouldn't have turned the Jets around to the point he did here because he can't play or control any other position outside of the offense. He was a perfect fit here and the fact he was great - and we had Bill - is the reason we won six titles.

He could have gone anywhere and been the Colts, Chargers, etc (a lot of wins, but one or two and done in the playoffs). So it's safe to say that Bill played a little part in how things went here.

 

[Kasmir]

An irony is that the talking heads are crediting Mac's relative success vs the other rookie QB's to Belichick! Doesn't fit the Brady Bunch narrative. No wonder so many of them root for Mac's failure, it's no win for them if Mac does well.

 

[aluminum seats]

I am one of the few here that was glad when Tom Brady left the patriots when he did. After 6 titles I wanted to see to see what Bill and Tom could do without each other

This is where I'm at. Understand that mileage may vary, and perfectly understandable to still want Tom here, but this is fascinating. And if you want Brady to run up the numbers, it's great for him that he left. Hell, he might reach 100k yards at this point.

I wasn't truly sold on Tom until after the Snow Bowl.

Exactly. It's all about winning and losing, and what QBs do--the difference between a win and a loss is SO thin. Plenty of bad teams do the "they lost 12 games by a total of 4 points last year" kind of thing. Look at the Chargers over the years.

A little OT, but that's why this next game is so important (ironically, against the Chargers). Are the Pats a team that almost beat the Bucs and the Cowboys, and a fumble away from beating the Dolphins? Could that 3-4 be 6-1 right now? OR are they a team that has only beaten Jets and the Texans (and barely beat the Texans). Are they sneaky good or do they suck? Who knows? Not me. Can't wait to see.

 

[amfootball]

I get what you're saying, but look at Peyton Manning. He honestly should have won way more than two rings had he not played for Dungy. We've had the "how many rings would he have won with Bill?" discussion and it counteracts the argument because a great QB still needs a great/really good coach to win it all. That argument right there is the antithesis of this argument.

It's the whole chicken/egg theory. You sort of need both. You can't discount what Bill's accomplished because he happened to have the guy he picked. His track record overall is pretty good. He turned around a Cleveland team who went to the playoffs the previous season and started off decently in 1995 before the wheels came off when the owner pulled the rug out from underneath everyone. In 2000, Bledsoe wasn't good and neither was that roster. That offseason, they made a lot of changes, and obviously, we know what happened from there.

When Brady went down in 2008, they went 11-5 and it's still beyond frustrating that they didn't get a shot to see what that team could have done in the postseason. Last season, my issue is they kept sending Newton out there hoping for different results and ended up 7-9. In my opinion...that's sort of on Belichick, but at the same time - and I've said it before - I truly believe Stidham said/did something that caused him to stay on the sideline.

Either way, as I've said, without going 7-9, they don't get Jones.

But if he starts winning with Jones, do we say, well "he wouldn't be winning if they haven't drafted Jones?"

Where does it end?

I mean, you can say, "is he so great he could win with a not-so-great QB?"

Well...I'd have to say no. But then again, that argument sort of applies to every single coach.

All this proves is that you do need a really good QB to win in this league. Which we sort of knew anyway...so I mean, that's not new. Again, I wish Brady was still here but at the same time, I take some solace in knowing that given how many not so great QBs come and go in this league, the timing of landing Mac - so far - at least is giving us a reason to feel like they're back on the right track.

The Manning narrative always makes me chuckle as some pundit once said Manning might have won 7 rings with Bill. And then literally in year one away from Bill, Brady wins with Manning's old Qb coach. Lol

 

[amfootball]

An irony is that the talking heads are crediting Mac's relative success vs the other rookie QB's to Belichick! Doesn't fit the Brady Bunch narrative. No wonder so many of them root for Mac's failure, it's no win for them if Mac does well.

It was inevitable that any Qb under Bill would have their success credited to Bill. Brady only broke that by leaving and going to Tampa and winning. I feel bad for Mac as he will never be given all the credit he deserves as long as BB is his coach.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I get what you're saying, but look at Peyton Manning. He honestly should have won way more than two rings had he not played for Dungy. We've had the "how many rings would he have won with Bill?" discussion and it counteracts the argument because a great QB still needs a great/really good coach to win it all. That argument right there is the antithesis of this argument.

It's the whole chicken/egg theory. You sort of need both.

You could argue Dungy would also be regarded as “a great coach” if Manning had played better in big games. Dungy made the postseason in 4 of 5 seasons with the Bucs before going to the Colts, a far better track record than Belichick pre-Patriots. The Colts won 12+ games year after year after year. Not sure why postseason struggles were blamed on Dungy when Manning did the exact same choking act later with Caldwell, Fox, and Kubiak. Same thing…great regular season…failure to generate anything on offense in the biggest games. Seems like a clear Manning theme, no? It even goes back to his college days at Tennessee.

As for the two rings:

In 2006, Dungy won a Super Bowl when Manning

• Threw 3 INTs in round one against KC
• Didn’t score a single offensive TD in round two against BAL
• Threw a pick 6 to trail 21-3 in the AFCCG against NE
• Had a 70 passer rating in the SB with his only TD on a broken play. The team rushed for 191 yards and had a defensive TD in the win.
• Total: 3 TDs, 7 INTs in postseason

In 2015, Kubiak won a Super Bowl when Manning

• Was benched for Osweiler during the regular season and finished with a passer rating of 67.9, with 9 TDs, 17 INTs
• Had a 74 passer rating in the AFCDG vs. PIT
• Had a 56 passer rating in the Super Bowl, throwing for just 140 yards, no TDs, and 2 turnovers, despite being given prime field position all game.

Given this, shouldn’t the question actually be whether Manning would have zero rings if he hadn’t gotten extremely lucky twice, capitalizing on great defense, coaching, etc.?

You can't discount what Bill's accomplished because he happened to have the guy he picked. His track record overall is pretty good. He turned around a Cleveland team who went to the playoffs the previous season and started off decently in 1995 before the wheels came off when the owner pulled the rug out from underneath everyone. In 2000, Bledsoe wasn't good and neither was that roster. That offseason, they made a lot of changes, and obviously, we know what happened from there.

Agree. People are also downplaying how difficult it is to win championships even while having great talent. You still need to often beat 3-4 other teams with similar talent levels and an even playing field. And holding together that type of talent, in free agency, with all the egos, I think is the highest level of coaching. There’s a reason the Bulls players were furious about Phil Jackson not getting commitment from management. People say Jackson had great players, and he did, but it takes so much to put it all together, maintain a high level of motivation, get everyone to buy into the greater good, etc. Look what the Lakers did later with and without him.

 

[50-yard-line]

That's definitely true, but what sets Brady apart is his resume, his work ethic, and the fact he holds everyone accountable. That's the big difference. Obviously, Bill set up the culture and the consistency, and he taught Brady what it took - if he put in the work - to be great. Brady embraced it and took it to another level, that's what makes him so special and that's why it annoys me that they let his age overshadow that and didn't keep him here.

Either way, Brady definitely should also get a lot of the credit for what happened. All that did was show me that Arians was smart enough to stay out of the way and set his ego aside. But I still believe you don't end up with one without the other. Brady wouldn't have turned the Jets around to the point he did here because he can't play or control any other position outside of the offense. He was a perfect fit here and the fact he was great - and we had Bill - is the reason we won six titles.

He could have gone anywhere and been the Colts, Chargers, etc (a lot of wins, but one or two and done in the playoffs). So it's safe to say that Bill played a little part in how things went here.

Ian, I've been saying forever that Kraft should have offered Brady whatever contract he wanted - to 45, with options...whatever. Then let HIM be part of bringing in the offensive pieces HE wanted. Breaks my hear thtat he's in Tampa, but if that meant that all I could do was come in here or elsewhere and crap on the laundry or one of the two guys who made the last couple of decade historical, then what's the point?

 

[Bill Lee]

I get that for sure but I'd say wins and rings are more of a team accomplishment - coaches can't make all of that happen on their own, but great players can.

I use this example a lot but knowing that an all time great QB like Peyton Manning took a coach like Jim Caldwell to a Super Bowl- and Caldwell is definitely not a good head coach - it's makes it much easier to argue that players matter a lot more than coach does. Saying Bill has 0 rings without Brady isn't saying Bill sucks without Brady and that would be false anyway. It's saying great QB > great coach. We'll see if Mac is great.

Wait, what, great players like TB12 still need 10 other guys on offense, 11 on defense and 11 on special teams, and coaches that coordinate their use, and scouts to pick the players, and business people to make the contracts, etc.

Brady isn't moving to the Jets or the Lions and making them become a SB contender, IMO. There are so many problems with player talent, coaching, and the front office. He was in on Tampa and SF since they both arguably were already SB caliber teams.

 

[Ian]

It was inevitable that any Qb under Bill would have their success credited to Bill. Brady only broke that by leaving and going to Tampa and winning. I feel bad for Mac as he will never be given all the credit he deserves as long as BB is his coach.

I wouldn't go that far. I think people have realized by now that the individual play is still incredibly meaningful, which they saw last season what happens when the player doesn't execute the way they need to under good coaching. And Mac will be around long after Bill, so he'll definitely get his opportunity

 

[amfootball]

I wouldn't go that far. I think people have realized by now that the individual play is still incredibly meaningful, which they saw last season what happens when the player doesn't execute the way they need to under good coaching. And Mac will be around long after Bill, so he'll definitely get his opportunity

I'm not talking about the fanbase. We get it.
I am talking about the media narrative.

 

[Ian]

Ian, I've been saying forever that Kraft should have offered Brady whatever contract he wanted - to 45, with options...whatever. Then let HIM be part of bringing in the offensive pieces HE wanted. Breaks my hear thtat he's in Tampa, but if that meant that all I could do was come in here or elsewhere and crap on the laundry or one of the two guys who made the last couple of decade historical, then what's the point?

I wish he had stayed as well, and it frustrates me to no end. But - like you said - I'm not just going to shut the site down or change to a Bucs site. Brady only has a few years left and so does Bill. So I'll watch/root for both, but 10-years from now, I'll still only care about what that current Patriots team is doing. And I certainly won't disparage either guy because it was a hell of a run and one unlike we'll ever see again in any of our lifetimes. I'd rather just enjoy the memories

 

[Ian]

I'm not talking about the fanbase. We get it.
I am talking about the media narrative.

Like you said, though, the media will still get their opportunity since Mac will be around well after Bill. Let's just hope they keep him surrounded by talent, coach well (whoever that may be), and don't screw it up. If he can become a winner after Belichick retires, he can hopefully, like Brady, add to his own legacy. Obviously, he has a ways to go before he gets to that point, but fingers crossed that he will.

 

[Bill Lee]

An irony is that the talking heads are crediting Mac's relative success vs the other rookie QB's to Belichick! Doesn't fit the Brady Bunch narrative. No wonder so many of them root for Mac's failure, it's no win for them if Mac does well.

Interesting points.

We can already see BB has managed Mac better than da Jete have managed Wilson.

BB kept pushing Cam as QB1 to the media, and had a vet like Hoyer around who knew the system, and Stid who had already done a year behind Brady and another behind Cam. A really deep QB room so Mac could have lots of different people to bounce ideas off of and learn from. Not much pressure since BB was still making as if Cam was QB1.

Da Jete let Flacco walk in free agency, took a shot at Hoyer but didn't make it happen, traded away Darnold during camp, brought in White off Dallas's practice squad who has never started a NFL game, and put it all on Wilson's shoulders to figure things out and make it work.

No surprise it's not working out for da Jete and now they've had to send a draft pick to get at least one adult in the room.

 

[amfootball]

Like you said, though, the media will still get their opportunity since Mac will be around well after Bill. Let's just hope they keep him surrounded by talent, coach well (whoever that may be), and don't screw it up. If he can become a winner after Belichick retires, he can hopefully, like Brady, add to his own legacy.

I have to admit, I am fascinated by the Patriots post Bill. They have already starting moving pieces in this past offseason. I am sure there will be more this year. Will they look to stay on the Bill system in regards to team building and coaching or go in a different direction?

 

[Ian]

I have to admit, I am fascinated by the Patriots post Bill. They have already starting moving pieces in this past offseason. I am sure there will be more this year. Will they look to stay on the Bill system in regards to team building and coaching or go in a different direction?

I 100% agree, it's going to be interesting. Given that they have a rookie QB, they'll have plenty of cap room, I'm curious to see who stays, who goes, and what they do further to strengthen this team heading into next year. Obviously, we've still got 10 games to go, but I'm certainly more optimistic right now than I was a few months ago.