PATRIOTS TRAINING CAMP PATRIOTS TRAINING CAMP Day 8 Training Camp Thread- Thursday August 5th

[DaBruinz]

There has been good news, but Agholar has a continuing problem of dropping passes behind the defense. Meyers has been perhaps the most consistent WR, but the value for those 3 is out of whack. Huge $ for the 2 FAs who will not bring the value of, say, Rashod Bateman. Still paying for the bad drafting. Group will be improved without a doubt, but looks like a merely average group to me with 3 NFL quality WRs and no top 10 guy.

Rashod Bateman? You mean a guy who has yet to play a meaningful down in the NFL?

Neither Agholor (#22) or Bourne (#40) are in the top 20 for WR Salaries. And how can you say that neither will bring "value" better than Bateman? Did you inherit Ms. Cleo's powers or something?

Instead of being worried about having a "Top 10 WR", why not focus on the O-line (likely to be a top 5 even without Thuney), the RBs (probably going to be top 5 in Rush Offense), and the TEs where they are likely to both be top 10 if regardless of which QB is throwing he ball.

Oh. And since this offense is likely to focus on the TEs and RBs, it's unlikely that the WRs are going to have "Top 10" numbers regardless of whether it's Cam or Mac throwing the ball. We're looking at another year where the team isn't likely to make 500 passing attempts.

 

[zydecochris]

Maybe he is but just doesn’t want to rock the boat.
My guess he’s not vaxed he’s a southern kid.
Promise you TB12 isn’t either.

A rookie as smart as Mac is? Of course he doesn't want to start shooting off his mouth as a rookie (especially a Patriots Rookie, and most especially after playing for Nick Saban who has the same opinion about rookies blabbing to the press as BB). I'm sure he doesn't want to wade into the vax or anti vax thing as a rookie (a key point, I wouldn't be surprised if he finds his voice later on if he "makes it"), I'm sure he just wants to keep his head down and win the starting job.

"Well Mac, what is your opinion on whether the sun rises in the East?' "Well, you would need to talk to Coach Belichick about that, there are plenty of great football players in the East and the West, and which ones rise is the type of thing that Coach Belichick and the other coaches keep track of."

 

[DaBruinz]

“Just fine” = average. They can be good enough as long as the TEs remain healthy. The more we have to lean on them the less comfortable I will be. Not being pessimistic; If healthy they should be much improved. Gone from worst to ok. But this position group is not on the same level as TE, RB or OL. WR and QB look like the weakest positions on that side of the ball, no?

Yep. Both the pot and the kettle are black.

Seriously. You've not seen how Agholor and Bourne will do in this offense and you're already being so damn negative by saying oh, they're average. SMH. I'm beginning to think you have some infatuation with Rashod Bateman that is causing you to lose sight of reality.

Let's get some persepective This group of WR , on paper, is better than the 2006 group of WR that consisted of Doug Gabriel, Jabar Gaffney, Troy Brown, Reche Caldwell, Chad Jackson and Kelvin Kight. It's at least as good as the WR corps of 2001 that had Troy Brown, David Patten, Charles Johnson, Torrance Small, Bert Emmanuel, Curtis Jackson, and Fred Coleman..

 

[zydecochris]

Wow man, not even sure how to reply to this. You’re a better man than me. I would’ve been divorced by now.

On this subject, if I can go to bat for Chris2223, I would argue it would be boring to marry someone who is a clone of yourself, real life usually isn't like TV where you find a soul mate that agrees you on every little thing. I fortunately don't have the problem with my wife being an anti-vaxer (admittedly, if she was a fanatical anti-science conspiracy theorist she probably wouldn't have married a university professor), but I have in laws who I love very, very much and who I actually respect very much in many, many ways who are anti-vaxers. I admit I can't understand it, but it isn't a show stopper for me, I don't require everyone to agree with me (that would also be boring).

 

[Joker]

Two scribes I put a lot of stock in, Tom Curran and Phil Perry, both report that as of today, Mac has shown a better grasp of the offense with far quicker reads and ball placement than Cam. What this portends right now? Look, we'll get an idea in the 1st preseason game but it seems to me that BB has a decision tree looming. Start Mac like Miami started Tua, and then relieve him with Cam if he stumbles, like Miami did with Fitzpatrick. OR...start Cam the first 4 to 6 games and ease Mac in as the season progresses....OR, use both with Mac running the pass offense and Cam in for goal line offense and RPO. What is now a known fact is that Mac is far beyond Jimmy G's first and 2nd seasons here as well as Brisett's. I really have no preference right now as I haven't SEEN enough real action to make any judgment but the beat writers seem to be on the Mac train for sure.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I think newton has to be the starter at the beginning of the year. At some point he will become a dumpster fire, because he is beyond awful, then Jones can become a legend by rescuing the season!

Ps: Twenty years ago lightening struck. Maybe we get another lightening strike this year!

 

[Pats2000]

Rashod Bateman? You mean a guy who has yet to play a meaningful down in the NFL?

Neither Agholor (#22) or Bourne (#40) are in the top 20 for WR Salaries. And how can you say that neither will bring "value" better than Bateman? Did you inherit Ms. Cleo's powers or something?

Instead of being worried about having a "Top 10 WR", why not focus on the O-line (likely to be a top 5 even without Thuney), the RBs (probably going to be top 5 in Rush Offense), and the TEs where they are likely to both be top 10 if regardless of which QB is throwing he ball.

Oh. And since this offense is likely to focus on the TEs and RBs, it's unlikely that the WRs are going to have "Top 10" numbers regardless of whether it's Cam or Mac throwing the ball. We're looking at another year where the team isn't likely to make 500 passing attempts.

Oh I don't think we'll attempt under 500 passes if Mac starts. He's going to be a quite effective passer by mid season.

Mac is going to surprise a lot of people on how good he will be his first year

 

[slash83]

I think newton has to be the starter at the beginning of the year. At some point he will become a dumpster fire, because he is beyond awful, then Jones can become a legend by rescuing the season!

Ps: Twenty years ago lightening struck. Maybe we get another lightening strike this year!

If according to you at some point Newton is destined to be awful why not just start jones from the get go?

 

[Betterthanmost]

Over the last two days, Jones has taken 52 snaps in 11-on-11 team drills while Newton has taken 29.
Significant or just par for the course?

 

[Deus Irae]

Two scribes I put a lot of stock in, Tom Curran and Phil Perry, both report that as of today, Mac has shown a better grasp of the offense with far quicker reads and ball placement than Cam. What this portends right now? Look, we'll get an idea in the 1st preseason game but it seems to me that BB has a decision tree looming. Start Mac like Miami started Tua, and then relieve him with Cam if he stumbles, like Miami did with Fitzpatrick. OR...start Cam the first 4 to 6 games and ease Mac in as the season progresses....OR, use both with Mac running the pass offense and Cam in for goal line offense and RPO. What is now a known fact is that Mac is far beyond Jimmy G's first and 2nd seasons here as well as Brisett's. I really have no preference right now as I haven't SEEN enough real action to make any judgment but the beat writers seem to be on the Mac train for sure.

I'm not making predictions, or trying to sway opinion in any direction with this, but remember:

People here listened to the reporters, and watched the exhibition games without really thinking overmuch about the "why" of things, and decided that Matt Cassel should be cut for the likes of Matt Gutierez and Kevin O'Connell.

 

[Peachhead]

Over the last two days, Jones has taken 52 snaps in 11-on-11 team drills while Newton has taken 29.
Significant or just par for the course?

I'm guessing today was more "get the rook reps in crappy weather" more than anything. But that's just a guess. However, I do think it's significant Cam hasn't been miles ahead of Mac (early on at least) despite many more years in the league and 1 more year than Mac in the Pats' system

 

[Lagaffe_07]

I'm guessing today was more "get the rook reps in crappy weather" more than anything. But that's just a guess. However, I do think it's significant Cam hasn't been miles ahead of Mac (early on at least) despite many more years in the league and 1 more year than Mac in the Pats' system

I’d argue that Cam need the reps as much as Mac! The fact that he doesn’t look much better than a rookie QB in his first TC is pretty concerning!

 

[n1997y]

I’d argue that Cam need the reps as much as Mac! The fact that he doesn’t look much better than a rookie QB in his first TC is pretty concerning!

Good point, and with both of them needing the reps it’s very telling to see who got them.

Although I’d argue more reps isn’t really going to change who either of them is, those reps are just going to give more evidence showing what that is. From that perspective it’s BB and Josh that need the reps, to see what they’ve got, and they need that more from Mac than from Cam because they already know what they’ve got with Newton. Today was BB seeing how Mac handled the conditions, and having it be the day after Jones showed problems dealing with the first day of pads made today even more useful as a test. Sounds like Mac aced it, so next big test will be the first preseason game. It’s going to be fun to watch!

 

[BobDigital]

I get what you're saying, but less than a 3rd of the league has a "top 10 guy" at WR, by definition. A team with 3 quality NFL WR's (if that's what they end up being) plus two TE who were the #1 TE on their teams last year, plus a top five OL will be just fine on offense... assuming they get reasonable QB play, which is obviously still a question to be answered.

If they could have gotten Agholor on a better deal I would be more happy with his play. I generally cut WRs in 4 tiers. Agholor is a 3rd tier WR. Very compent and if you have 3 guys like him you almost always have a massive match up edge on the 3rd option. Those guys use to be good buys. Now adays you are better off buying a number 1. Which is a big reversal

 

[Nunchucks]

I am pulling for Harry to make this team and prove worthy of his draft position. Having a big and powerful WR who can out muscle DBs and make catches down field would be awesome.

The amount of crow people would eat...also awesome

 

[scott99]

On this subject, if I can go to bat for Chris2223, I would argue it would be boring to marry someone who is a clone of yourself, real life usually isn't like TV where you find a soul mate that agrees you on every little thing. I fortunately don't have the problem with my wife being an anti-vaxer (admittedly, if she was a fanatical anti-science conspiracy theorist she probably wouldn't have married a university professor), but I have in laws who I love very, very much and who I actually respect very much in many, many ways who are anti-vaxers. I admit I can't understand it, but it isn't a show stopper for me, I don't require everyone to agree with me (that would also be boring).

On a whole, I’m like most men, I am somewhat shallow in that certain things catch my eye when I wind up in relationships such as physical beauty. But as I got older, even as early as age 22, I found that intelligence was an extremely sexy personality trait, as are decency, caring, thoughtfulness. But intelligence has been extremely prevalent in almost all of my relationships in the last 35 years of my life.

My ex wife is extremely intelligent, the woman I was dating prior to her was ridiculously intelligent. Both of them are very pretty, but so intelligent, and something I wouldn’t have realized until I had serious conversations with them after I had met them. The last woman I was in love with also was wise beyond her years.

I’ve also had extremely short relationships with women who I realized were all about their looks, and not much more. I just don’t like women who have unattractive personality traits, no offense to anyone’s wives or husbands, but I would really question a person’s intelligence if they were an anti vaxxer, and a Q conspiracy theorist. And even if they were beautiful on the outside, I’d be repulsed by them and would never even think of them as a mate. I think Tomi Lahren is gorgeous physically, but her personality is so repulsive, I almost puke when I hear her talk.

I agree with you, you don’t want to be with someone who is exactly like you and agrees with every single thing you believe in. That would be boring. But someone who is an anti vaxxer would be a deal breaker for me. No offense to anyone, but I couldn’t handle that.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I am pulling for Harry to make this team and prove worthy of his draft position. Having a big and powerful WR who can out muscle DBs and make catches down field would be awesome.

The amount of crow people would eat...also awesome

Eat crow? What has Harry done to instill confidence that he will produce to justify his draft position? It's not like he had a couple of good years and now the fan base is down on him for no good reason.

Right now Harry is the 9th most accomplished skill player on offense.

I think every fan on this board wants Harry to justify his draft position and produce but with his injury history, sub-standard performance and how far back he is in the offensive depth chart here, no wonder he wants to be traded.

He needs to go to a team with less talent.

 

[PScottman]

Nowadays you are better off buying a number 1

By what metric are NFL teams "better off" buying a "top ten" receiver as their #1?

• 1. Cardinals WR DeAndre Hopkins: $27.3 million
• 2. Falcons WR Julio Jones: $22 million (Now with Tennessee)
• 3. Chargers WR Keenan Allen: $20 million
• 4. Cowboys WR Amari Cooper: $20 million
• 5. Saints WR Michael Thomas: $19.3 million
• 6. Chiefs WR Tyreek Hill: $18 million
• 6. Browns WR Odell Beckham Jr.: $18 million
• 6. Giants WR Kenny Golladay: $18 million
• 9. Bears WR Allen Robinson: $17.9 million
• 10. Seahawks WR Tyler Lockett: $17.3 million

So the average is $20M. And the wins of those same teams?

Most Total NFL Wins Last 5 Years | StatMuse

Between May 8, 2021 and May 8, 2026, the Buffalo Bills have the most wins by a team, with 60 wins.

www.statmuse.com

Avg wins per season of teams with top ten WRs would then be (I left Jones on the Falcons even though I know he's on the Titans now - Texans/Cardinals for Hopkins was 39 vs 31 so you could add almost a quarter of a win per season to the below #):

8.24 wins per season (it's 8.4 if I use Texans wins)

In 2020, the top ten WRs by yards were exactly two of those guys:

NFL.com | Official Site of the National Football League

The official source for NFL news, video highlights, fantasy football, game-day coverage, schedules, stats, scores and more.

www.nfl.com

Hill
Hopkins

By total receptions it's just one:

Wide Receiver WR Stats Cheat Sheet NFL Current Season Statistics

Rank NFL wide receivers by Current Season Statistics - receiving yards per game, targets per game, catches per game, etc

fantasyfootballers.org

Hopkins

Same site - by reception/yards per game (probably the better metric of impact in a season - and even that top 10 has only a couple players on perennial winning franchises):

Hopkins
Jones
Hill

So given that data (and there has to be some correlation of salary to stats...there is a salary cap in the NFL) what it looks like that statement above is saying is that nowadays you're better off with Tyreek Hill because he's the ONLY one that is paid like a #1, produces like a #1, and actually is on a consistently winning team (the ultimate metric to most).

Also not measured is that the top statistical WRs are likely that way not because of "skill" alone, but because their teams tend towards being behind and therefore have to throw more to try and come back and a lot of times against prevent "give up receptions/yards for clock" defensive alignments.

So I'll close with the same question I opened with - what is the reason why it's better to use limited salary cap space for a "#1 WR" nowadays and how (without hindsight) can one know beyond a shadow of a doubt that WR "is"/"will be" a consistent #1?

 

[PScottman]

I get what you’re saying, but he’s specifically talking about WR’s.

I know, that is exactly the point, myopic focus on a single aspect of an entire team isn't conducive to a system as complex as an NFL team.

It's building a rocket with only roughnecks on the engineering team. Sure, you might have a lot of fuel, but nothing to put it into, channel it, ignite it, and otherwise utilize it to actually get anywhere.

 

[Nunchucks]

Eat crow? What has Harry done to instill confidence that he will produce to justify his draft position? It's not like he had a couple of good years and now the fan base is down on him for no good reason.

Right now Harry is the 9th most accomplished skill player on offense.

I think every fan on this board wants Harry to justify his draft position and produce but with his injury history, sub-standard performance and how far back he is in the offensive depth chart here, no wonder he wants to be traded.

He needs to go to a team with less talent.

Just piling on a guy who is struggling. I don't know why people have to hate on a guy so quickly, it is ridiculous.

We all know that many wrs emerge in their 3rd year and Harry has had to deal with injury and a covid season with Cam.