Content Post All-Time QB Rankings / QB Hall of Fame Monitor

[everlong]

At least they got #1 right.

How do you rank guys like Len Dawson and Ken Stabler higher than Staubach? Favre over Montana? Bob Griese 18th? LO-F'IN-L.

 

[Brotherblues]

Bradshaw's 4 rings were all with real hall of famers at every position on offense AND defense. I'm not sure how to objectively measure that in a list like this but man, I find it annoying when poeple cite his rings when talking about the all time greats. In his very best season he threw 20 picks.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

At least they got #1 right.

How do you rank guys like Len Dawson and Ken Stabler higher than Staubach? Favre over Montana? Bob Griese 18th? LO-F'IN-L.

By using bad data points.

I agree about Staubach. There’s almost no way he drops out of the top 10 all-time in my rankings.

I’d give Griese a closer look. I initially did a few WTFs when he kept coming up in my top 20, but I don’t think top 25 is a stretch.

 

[Zarozzor]

The Ranker list shows what happens when you let a community vote and not have to explain any criteria or thought process behind their votes.

1. Tom Brady
2. Drew Brees
3. Peyton Manning
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Johnny Unitas
6. Joe Montana
7. Brett Favre
8. John Elway
9. Dan Marino
10. Steve Young
11. Roger Staubach
12. Fran Tarkenton
13. Bart Starr
14. Otto Graham
15. Russell Wilson
16. Jim Kelly
17. Kurt Warner
18. Terry Bradshaw
19. Warren Moon
20. Troy Aikman

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The Ranker list shows what happens when you let a community vote and not have to explain any criteria or thought process behind their votes.

1. Tom Brady
2. Drew Brees
3. Peyton Manning
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Johnny Unitas
6. Joe Montana
7. Brett Favre
8. John Elway
9. Dan Marino
10. Steve Young
11. Roger Staubach
12. Fran Tarkenton
13. Bart Starr
14. Otto Graham
15. Russell Wilson
16. Jim Kelly
17. Kurt Warner
18. Terry Bradshaw
19. Warren Moon
20. Troy Aikman

Great display of the consensus sports fan’s lack of historical awareness.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Johnny Unitas was one of the greatest ever, but his legacy as an innovator is largely a myth

I'm into the 1950s/60s right now, and my reading/research has further reinforced that Johnny Unitas was absolutely not an innovator in many of the ways that are claimed. And I'll say that Unitas is in my personal top 10; he is an all-time great and was also an amazing leader, humble teammate, and one of the best passers ever. So why get into this if it doesn't even change the ranking? What bugs me about crediting Unitas for inventing things like the no-huddle offense, the two minute drill, the 3/5 step dropback, is the lazy analysis based on false media hype that's been repeated over and over until, years later, it's just accepted as fact.

Unitas was the first to demonstrate and popularize via mass audience television broadcast, the two minute drill and some of the more modern game concepts. He was certainly one of the best at executing them. Sure, he may have improved some things like all of the great ones do. But he absolutely did not invent these things, and it's unfair to the players before him to give him false credit.

Example, someone on a Reddit thread posted that Unitas invented the 3 step drop. Several others then post actual video of it being done by Baugh and Luckman; but beyond that, Baugh and Luckman are the only guys from that era to have the actual footage; I'm sure if they're doing it, it's probably common. There are clips of Arnie Herber in the 1930s dropping back and throwing deep too. Also upon reading the in-depth championship game writeups from Golden Rankings, it is clear that teams were doing things like no-huddle, audibles, quarterback reads, etc.

People also overrate Unitas's statistical accomplishments. I'd compare his consecutive touchdowns game streak to the DiMaggio record and the fact that Ted Williams hit for a higher average during that time; that is, it's a cool stat, but it's more rooted in statistical luck than outlier greatness. Was Unitas the best touchdown pass thrower on a per-game basis? He was often one of them. Some seasons he was first. But he wasn't on some Gretzky-like other plane of existence. When Unitas came into the league, he led the league in touchdown passes from 1957-60 (four consecutive seasons); he never led the league again after that.

• In 1957, he passed for 24, while Van Brocklin had 20.
• In 1958, he passed for 19, while Billy Wade had 18.
• In 1959, his most dominant season, he passed for 32, while Bobby Layne had 20.
• In 1960, he passed for 25, while Van Brocklin had 24.

Was he great? Absolutely. Were others close to him? Absolutely. Going back to that 1959 season where he threw a very impressive 32 TD passes, 12 more than the next player, no one can deny that's very impressive. But is it a historical outlier? I've seen people cite how far ahead he was from the next quarterback, but again, this wasn't anything unique.

• In 1942, Cecil Isbell threw 24 touchdown passes (second place, Sammy Baugh with 16)
• In 1943, Sid Luckman threw 28 touchdown passes and Sammy Baugh 24 (third place: 9)
• In 1951, Layne threw 26 touchdown passes to set a new record (Graham was second with 17)
• In 1962, only two years after Unitas's greatest season, Sonny Jugensen tied his record with 32 touchdown passes.
• In 1963, only one year after Jurgensen tied the record and three years after it was set, Y.A. Tittle broke the record with 33 touchdown passes.

Hope this isn't some long ramble and it's starting to come into focus...the idea that Unitas was on an island as the inventor and master of the quarterback position is just not true and largely fueled by his television presence. Many of his accomplishments are of the counting stats variety where he surpassed the all-time leader and then was surpassed by Tarkenton...great accomplishments there but nothing that stands out.

 

[Deus Irae]

At least they got #1 right.

How do you rank guys like Len Dawson and Ken Stabler higher than Staubach? Favre over Montana? Bob Griese 18th? LO-F'IN-L.

I'm not going to defend that list. I will just note that it's very difficult to find just the right "objective" balance to get the QBs right. IceIceBrady was tweaking formulae for a long time and, even so, he was never able to get to the point where I was in line with his list. There was always a couple of guys who would end up in a wonky spot.

How much of that is the subjective just refusing to acknowledge the objective, and how much is a problem with things that are either immeasurable or the famous "intangible", I leave for you to decide for your own self.

I really recommend that people read through the entirety of this IIB thread. He did yeoman's work and deserves the full Patsfans.com audience for it.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

The Ranker list shows what happens when you let a community vote and not have to explain any criteria or thought process behind their votes.

1. Tom Brady
2. Drew Brees
3. Peyton Manning
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Johnny Unitas
6. Joe Montana
7. Brett Favre
8. John Elway
9. Dan Marino
10. Steve Young
11. Roger Staubach
12. Fran Tarkenton
13. Bart Starr
14. Otto Graham
15. Russell Wilson
16. Jim Kelly
17. Kurt Warner
18. Terry Bradshaw
19. Warren Moon
20. Troy Aikman

95% of the voters never saw Roger Staubach or Fran Tarkington play. Never mind Johnny U or Otto Graham.

This question has to be framed in how would QB's play during the ages. In today's game, Roger Staubach would be a better QB than Brees or Rodgers.

Montana is a function of a genius system. Likewise, Marino and "Peyton" are elevated at the expense of the team, overall.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Bradshaw's 4 rings were all with real hall of famers at every position on offense AND defense. I'm not sure how to objectively measure that in a list like this but man, I find it annoying when poeple cite his rings when talking about the all time greats. In his very best season he threw 20 picks.

That was during the period where the Mel Blount Rule was born.

In Terry's defense, we can ask Peyton about a certain AFCCG where his receivers were physically handled and ask about what that does to interceptions.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I'm not going to defend that list. I will just note that it's very difficult to find just the right "objective" balance to get the QBs right. IceIceBrady was tweaking formulae for a long time and, even so, he was never able to get to the point where I was in line with his list. There was always a couple of guys who would end up in a wonky spot.

How much of that is the subjective just refusing to acknowledge the objective, and how much is a problem with things that are either immeasurable or the famous "intangible", I leave for you to decide for your own self.

I really recommend that people read through the entirety of this IIB thread. He did yeoman's work and deserves the full Patsfans.com audience for it.

Thanks.

Yes, it's extremely difficult, and I don't think anyone who spends an afternoon trying to put together an all era-inclusive rankings list can put out anything decent. I credit that guy for trying...that's the frustrating part...you make it so that everything is somewhat orderly and reasonable and then you realize that Roger Staubach is way too low because he lacks the all-pro/MVP accolades; or Dan Marino is #23 because you eliminated longevity weight/total passing touchdowns to prevent Dan Fouts from being a top 15 QB. There's always some players who throw a wrench into it.

And yes, always very much a work in progress...I am thinking of just doing a QB countdown rank at some point where I'm guided by, but not bound by, the numerical system and the hours of reading/research I've done and asking for people's opinions as it ticks down. Finally can get rid of that annoying top-5 P. Manning problem

 

[Zarozzor]

And yes, always very much a work in progress...I am thinking of just doing a QB countdown rank at some point where I'm guided by, but not bound by, the numerical system and the hours of reading/research I've done and asking for people's opinions as it ticks down. Finally can get rid of that annoying top-5 P. Manning problem

This is where I’m at. I’ve wrote down criteria and other things and plan on using that and my own research to make a list instead of a numerical system.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

This is where I’m at. I’ve wrote down criteria and other things and plan on using that and my own research to make a list instead of a numerical system.

I’d like to see it.

I’m working on mine but it’s almost done.

Many people will dislike my choices. I think those of you in this thread who have followed and contributed to the project will appreciate the order while some people will just complain about guys they haven’t heard of being too high.

 

[Joker]

I saw him...almost every game he played...Roger Staubach is the best leader,the most efficient scrambler and the REAL reason why they started calling Dallas "America's Team!". One of the best men in both character and charisma that has ever graced our lives. Back then I HATED Dallas...everyone did....but Staubach made me feel like he was playing for ME every time I watched the Cowboys play. Heh..a freaking naval academy QB back when Navy was running the frogman offense. Staubach was a 10th round pick...TENTH ROUND...the 126th player taken in 1964. To this day, an opinionated maven of the NFL who shares HIS perspectives on the draft to this day.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I saw him...almost every game he played...Roger Staubach is the best leader,the most efficient scrambler and the REAL reason why they started calling Dallas "America's Team!". One of the best men in both character and charisma that has ever graced our lives. Back then I HATED Dallas...everyone did....but Staubach made me feel like he was playing for ME every time I watched the Cowboys play. Heh..a freaking naval academy QB back when Navy was running the frogman offense. Staubach was a 10th round pick...TENTH ROUND...the 126th player taken in 1964. To this day, an opinionated maven of the NFL who shares HIS perspectives on the draft to this day.

He was a bit before my time, but I think I’ve watched more of his games, highlights, interviews, etc than any other researched player. He is #1 in era-adjusted stats (peak plus efficiency) in the Super Bowl era. What’s more remarkable is how much his ranking improved when accounting for sacks. He scrambled out of them instead of running into more of them. And an overall genuinely good, humble person.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I saw him...almost every game he played...Roger Staubach is the best leader,the most efficient scrambler and the REAL reason why they started calling Dallas "America's Team!". One of the best men in both character and charisma that has ever graced our lives. Back then I HATED Dallas...everyone did....but Staubach made me feel like he was playing for ME every time I watched the Cowboys play. Heh..a freaking naval academy QB back when Navy was running the frogman offense. Staubach was a 10th round pick...TENTH ROUND...the 126th player taken in 1964. To this day, an opinionated maven of the NFL who shares HIS perspectives on the draft to this day.

Relevant to ”upside” draft crowd on PatsFans:

Joe Montana - 82nd
Johnny Unitas - 102nd
Roger Staubach - 126th
Tom Brady - 199th
Bart Starr - 200th

That’s literally half of the consensus top 10 quarterbacks ever.

 

[Zarozzor]

I’d like to see it.

I’m working on mine but it’s almost done.

Many people will dislike my choices. I think those of you in this thread who have followed and contributed to the project will appreciate the order while some people will just complain about guys they haven’t heard of being too high.

Can't wait to see your list.

I'm also working on mine at the moment, but not sure when I'll be done. Going over a bunch of different things.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

I saw him...almost every game he played...Roger Staubach is the best leader,the most efficient scrambler and the REAL reason why they started calling Dallas "America's Team!". One of the best men in both character and charisma that has ever graced our lives. Back then I HATED Dallas...everyone did....but Staubach made me feel like he was playing for ME every time I watched the Cowboys play. Heh..a freaking naval academy QB back when Navy was running the frogman offense. Staubach was a 10th round pick...TENTH ROUND...the 126th player taken in 1964. To this day, an opinionated maven of the NFL who shares HIS perspectives on the draft to this day.

Roger Staubach would flat ball out in today's NFL. He's the QB that is universal in all ages

Steve Belichick's kid used to throw around the pigskin with him.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Can't wait to see your list.

I'm also working on mine at the moment, but not sure when I'll be done. Going over a bunch of different things.

This is my list for now...I have the formula rankings (at least based on current standard) in paranthesis and have put them into tiers...within the tiers, I really couldn't give you a very strong argument that one guy in the tier should be ranked over another, and it comes down to preference about what you're focusing on for greatness.

I'm trying to weigh the totality of accomplishments and performance.

I don't claim to be fully objective here...I try to be fair, though naturally I'm going to be biased based on things I've observed with my eyes along with data, and modern players are going to get more scrutiny from me, for better or worse. Also, I tend to give tiebreakers to the older player. Why? Because if their reputations have surived this long, that tells me something...I like to ere on the side of caution with today's players because recency bias is a powerful phenomenon.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

This is my list for now...I have the formula rankings (at least based on current standard) in paranthesis and have put them into tiers...within the tiers, I really couldn't give you a very strong argument that one guy in the tier should be ranked over another, and it comes down to preference about what you're focusing on for greatness.

I'm trying to weigh the totality of accomplishments and performance.

I don't claim to be fully objective here...I try to be fair, though naturally I'm going to be biased based on things I've observed with my eyes along with data, and modern players are going to get more scrutiny from me, for better or worse. Also, I tend to gvie tiebreakers to the older player. Why? Because if their reputations have surived this long, that tells me something...I like to ere on the side of caution with today's players because recency bias is a powerful phenomenon.

View attachment 32894

List isn't bad at all except I'd really bump up Young & Manning, which you've heard me say before, a lot lol. Young might be a personal thing but he was absolutely great when things really came together, his peak is up there with anyone imo. Unbelievable rushing threat. Manning dominated and carried almost all his teams. Not popular here but there's not more 3 or 4 guys I would want over him if starting a team.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

List isn't bad at all except I'd really bump up Young & Manning, which you've heard me say before, a lot lol. Young might be a personal thing but he was absolutely great when things really came together, his peak is up there with anyone imo. Unbelievable rushing threat. Manning dominated and carried almost all his teams. Not popular here but there's not more 3 or 4 guys I would want over him if starting a team.

I understand why you'd want would want to bump both of them up. The thing I'd ask, though, is which quarterbacks you'd move down to make that happen. I'm not trying to do a spite ranking for Manning here..the issue is that I think other players have a greater claim to greatness. Because these guys are all top-10, I'm admittedly nit-picking to some degree, but I'm left with finding the players with the most major flaws.

Brady (none)
Baugh (none - could argue Luckman was better head to head, but in the grand scheme, Baugh is basically untouchable)
Graham (none - he is still ranked top 5 when AAFC experience is removed)
Montana (none)
Luckman (none - could argue he wasn't best of his era but also could legit argue he was, unlike Manning)
Staubach (none - he began career very late, but in some ways that makes his accomplishments more impressive)
Unitas (none - I've pointed out he is credited for things he didn't do, but even without that, he has no major flaws)

Starr (he never threw for more than the league average TD passes; the responsibility factor can't be zeroed out)
Manning (his big-game failures are almost as much his legacy as his positives)
Young (starting at age 30 was too much of an accomplishments deficit for him to overcome against the guys above him)

Yes, totally agree that Young's peak is up there. The era-adjusted statistical ranks had Young and Staubach as 1-2 in Super Bowl era.

I think putting Young in top 10 is much higher than you'll find on many people's top-10 rankings, which is shameful...if people think Rodgers is a top-10, there's nothing other than recency bias to exclude Young from the same standing.

I think also, despite that Manning bias will be assumed here, if I'm ranking these QBs based only on post-merger, Manning is #4. I think the major issue with putting him #9 is that this really is an all-time rankings list. If you either remove or de-rank Baugh, Luckman, Graham, Starr, and Unitas, like most lists tend to do, it looks much less damning for Manning.