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All-Time QB Rankings / QB Hall of Fame Monitor

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Flutie > Young?

Dude...come on....
Flutie did better with the Generals in New Jersey than Young did with the Express in LA. And Steve's stat line in Tampa is reminiscent of Joe Kapp's here with the Patriots.

The fact is that Steve Young won only one Super Bowl as the starter on that 49ers team, which was stacked. Loaded. Montana in fact played exceptionally well in 1993-94 with the Chiefs, and was also active and available for the 1992 season NFCCG when he watched them lose from the sideline. His cred, experience, leadership and proven ability to manage a game and make the clutch plays to win was more than enough for me to 100% believe he earned the right and prefer him to start vs. the Cowboys, regardless of Young being MVP. BTW other MVP's Rich Gannon, Earl Morrall and YA Tittle aren't very high on this list. Anyway, with such a loaded team I expect Montana would have won at least two more Super Bowls, giving him six total, if they'd gone that way.

Stats are nice. Winning is a different matter. Montana, Brady and Flutie made otherwise mediocre teams great. The other quarterbacks do not have this ability. Manning (Peyton) and Marino along with Favre were so talented and such weapons that they made any team very competitive, but they lacked the intangibles like timing, awareness, leadership and clutch play which separate the winners. If Flutie were coddled and supported like Elway and Kelly were, he'd have at least two Super Bowl rings.

The perception of most people is supported by the consensus in the aforementioned stupid league. Flutie was not like the other quarterbacks. People confuse 'different' with 'inferior'. The insane statement that "Flutie was not an NFL-caliber quarterback" utilizes the same flawed nonlogic in saying "Brady is not an NFL-caliber quarterback".
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

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Norm Van Brocklin: The First Quarterback to Win a Championship with Two Teams?

Peyton Manning (even though it was a joke) and Tom Brady are the first two quarterbacks to lead two separate teams to championships...maybe. Norm Van Brocklin has a case for this too, but it comes down to what type of credit we assign to quarterbacks for championships. By today's standards, there's an easy cutoff for win responsibility, and it's the game's official starter.

In the 1950s, there were a few murky situations with shared quarterback responsibilities. However, this wasn't the "quarterback by committee approach" from earlier teams with multiple position players throwing passes; this was more like a rotational planned, rotation situation where the coach might think one guy is good for certain situations and another guy for other situations. One good example of this is the 1950s Giants, who often had a rotation of quarterbacks with Charlie Connerly being the main guy (by the way, I have Connerly as the third biggest Hall QB snub.). In 1956, the Giants won their only championshp of that era sandwiched in between a whole bunch of brutal losses in the final round. In that season, Don Heinrich started almost every game for the Giants despite being the clear cut #2 behind Connerly. The Giants coach, Jim Lee Howell, indicated that he liked to have Heinrich start the game as the scout quarterback to figure out the defensive alignments before handing responsibilities to Connerly. On the season, Connerly had almost twice as many passing attempts as Heinrich. In the championship game itself, a 47-7 shellacking of the Bears, Connerly threw 10 passes to Heinrich's 7...a low volume output likely due to the blowout...but Connerly finished the game with a 152.1 QB rating while Heinrich was at 58.3.


The Giants situation is probably pretty clear but...it's a matter of creating a consistent criteria to reward Connerly with the 1956 championship, or at least a majority share of the championship, since he was the team's primary quarterback in both the regular season and the game, even though by today's standards he would not be credited.

And this brings us to Norm Van Brocklin, a more difficult case because the 1951 Rams featured two future Hall of Fame quarterbacks (Van Brocklin and Bob Waterfield) who were really a 1-2 punch in no particular order. I imagine that if the Rams had been in existence now, they would have traded on the these guys for a big haul, but back then, trades were very rare.

*Spoiler* - In 1960, after playing a decade with the Rams, Van Brocklin went to the Eagles and won a championship, which is why the 1951 quarterback share becomes more relevant.

In the 1951 season, Waterfield and Van Brocklin platooned as the quarterback for the championship winning team. They finished #4 and #5 in the league in passing yards despite splitting their attempts. Though Waterfield was the official "starter" in most games, Van Brocklin had more passing attampts (194-176) for the season. Van Brocklin would, in 1952 - the next season - establish himself as primary quarterback, throwing 2X more passes that Waterfield and nudging Waterfield into retirement soon after.

In the 1951 NFL Championship Game against Otto Graham's Browns, Waterfield was the starter and struggled for much of the day, going 9-24 with 2 INTs and a dismal 20.1 passer rating. The Rams did not sub in Van Brocklin for the second half as they typically did, perhaps because they went with the old wisdom that the veteran quarterback gives you experience in big games. The Golden Rankings article below refers to Van Brocklin being in the team's dog house for ignoring a running play the game before. Whatever, the reason, Van Brocklin came in towards the end of the 3rd quarter.

The Browns tied the score early in the 4th quarter, leading to Van Brocklin's dramatic championship winning touchdown pass, a needle threader catch and run to Tom Fears, who ran it in for a 73-yard touchdown. Van Brocklin finished 4-6, 128 yards (more than Waterfield's yard total in three quarters) and a 149.3 rating.

There's a strong argument that can be made that Van Brocklin deserves credit as the quarterback of the 1951 Rams, or at least half credit. Since coaches and players didn't anticipate the idea of "assigned credit" for quarterback win/loss records, mainly because these guys were paid peanuts and there were no resumes to put together for free agency, it would seem like an unfair penalty to give Van Brocklin a ZERO share of the championship. In my rankings for championship shares, I used a formula which combines the snap counts of the regular season games and also the emphasized snap counts of the postseason game...Van Brocklin receives just about 50% credit. Now the question is whether or not you use that 50% and round up, making both Van Brocklin and Watefield championship credit, and bringing both of their total to 2, or giving them 1.5 each.


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Relevant to ”upside” draft crowd on PatsFans:

Joe Montana - 82nd
Johnny Unitas - 102nd
Roger Staubach - 126th
Tom Brady - 199th
Bart Starr - 200th

That’s literally half of the consensus top 10 quarterbacks ever.
Steve Grogan - 116th
Doug Flutie - 285th*

*this was due to Doug already being signed by the Generals in the USFL

Kurt Warner and Adam Vinatieri were undrafted.

Both gained valuable experience in NFL Europe. Along with everything else, we have Goodell to thank today that we are not seeing stars performing in the limelight who didn't get that chance to play and develop.
 
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Actual Pats Fan

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By today's standards, there's an easy cutoff for win responsibility, and it's the game's official starter.
Easy, but as you clearly show it's not fair.

The guy who comes in to bail everybody out and win the game - who finishes - deserves credit for the win.

...but not the backup who just comes in at the end to take the last snaps to run the clock out at the end.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

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Flutie did better with the Generals in New Jersey than Young did with the Express in LA. And Steve's stat line in Tampa is reminiscent of Joe Kapp's here with the Patriots.

The fact is that Steve Young won only one Super Bowl as the starter on that 49ers team, which was stacked. Loaded. Montana in fact played exceptionally well in 1993-94 with the Chiefs, and was also active and available for the 1992 season NFCCG when he watched them lose from the sideline. His cred, experience, leadership and proven ability to manage a game and make the clutch plays to win was more than enough for me to 100% believe he earned the right and prefer him to start vs. the Cowboys, regardless of Young being MVP. BTW other MVP's Rich Gannon, Earl Morrall and YA Tittle aren't very high on this list. Anyway, with such a loaded team I expect Montana would have won at least two more Super Bowls, giving him six total, if they'd gone that way.

Stats are nice. Winning is a different matter. Montana, Brady and Flutie made otherwise mediocre teams great. The other quarterbacks do not have this ability. Manning (Peyton) and Marino along with Favre were so talented and such weapons that they made any team very competitive, but they lacked the intangibles like timing, awareness, leadership and clutch play which separate the winners. If Flutie were coddled and supported like Elway and Kelly were, he'd have at least two Super Bowl rings.

The perception of most people is supported by the consensus in the aforementioned stupid league. Flutie was not like the other quarterbacks. People confuse 'different' with 'inferior'. The insane statement that "Flutie was not an NFL-caliber quarterback" utilizes the same flawed nonlogic in saying "Brady is not an NFL-caliber quarterback".

I believe Flutie was an NFL caliber quarterback and a good one. He was underrated, and I think a lot of that was old school scout bias. It's unfortunate he didn't get a chance for a longer NFL career...so we can only project what might have been if he'd been a starter the entire time.

Steve Young was truly great. I could tell you about "the eye test," but there's no need to: the awards, statistics, and every measurable standard shows Young is an all-time great quarterback.

That Montana was great, too, and arguably better, doesn't change that Steve Young was clearly an exceptional, other worldly talent. I agree: I'd probably take a healthy Montana over a healthy Young in 1992, but Young had been the team's starter all year and was the league MVP. The 49ers lost to another all-time great team in Dallas. Montana was clutch, but keep in mind his Super Bowls were borderline exhibition matches against the also rans from the AFC; he lost plenty of times to the NFC's behemoths, so it's not like he was infallible and guaranteed to beat that dominant Cowboys team either.
 

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it's not like he was infallible and guaranteed to beat that dominant Cowboys team either.
No guarantee; but I believe he gave that team the better chance to win. My (minority) opinion.

Montana's huge advantage those last years was experience. Exactly what Brady enjoys and utilizes today.

Montana was clutch, but keep in mind his Super Bowls were borderline exhibition matches against the also rans from the AFC
Anderson's Bengals and Marino's Dolphins were very good teams. I wouldn't call them also rans, nor the (another MVP! not on list) Boomer Bengals in '88 [I believe Pats were better than them. Beat them. Stephens > Woods, Flutie(if Berry hadn't insanely benched him) > Esiason, Fryar/Morgan > whatever Cincy WR's etc.]. Elway was the only tomato can Joe faced in the big one. Montana was clutch in all of them.

Young had one great Super Bowl. So did Mark Rypien.

the awards, statistics
Peyton, Elway, Kelly, Bledsoe say hello

every measurable standard shows Young is an all-time great quarterback.
The 49ers of the early 90's were an all-time great team. Period.

Steve Young was clearly an exceptional, other worldly talent.
Exceptional, yes.

Other worldly? For some reason my mind is telling me Jeff Garcia...

Many other quarterbacks would have thrived on that team. Yes, few would achieve or surpass the production Steve Young did. Flutie is one of them.
 
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Ice_Ice_Brady

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Great read here.

Van Brocklin and Waterfield, splitting snaps for four seasons in a record setting offense. Very opposite personalities with NVB a very fiery guy who would freeze out receivers and Waterfield a very quiet, mild mannered guy. Even their skills quite different with NVB a deep ball passer with an incredible arm and Waterfield a more balanced, mobile QB.

Shocking that they got along okay despite playing in the microscope in LA with the media trying to create controversy.


Also, this is one of the stronger points of the “system is bunk” argument. The idea that teams are so specifically designed for certain concepts and QB strengths, or that teams require a specific type of leadership or personality. These guys had extremely similar overall numbers and success despite their very different approaches.

They also wound up dying within a few weeks of each other.

1621049373017.jpeg
 
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Ice_Ice_Brady

Disputed Winner - Week 2 Predict the Score Contest
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Quarterbacks with the most paradoxical careers and strangest Hall cases:
  • Eli Manning (2X Champ and mediocre QB)
  • Tobin Rote (NFL and AFL Champion QB)
  • Earl Morrall (Backup most of career / MVP in 68 / took 72 Dolphins to SB)

2X Champion Quarterbacks Not in Canton
  • Rote (AFL and NFL)
  • Jim Plunkett
  • Tommy Thompson
  • Ed Danowski
  • Jack Kemp (AFL Championships)
 
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Ice_Ice_Brady

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Pats1971

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
George Blanda’s Hall of Fame nod should be investigated as a crime against humanity. Dude sucked ass in the NFL and sucked as in the AFL, but his team was really good in the AFL. How good? Well, Blanda tossed 42 interceptions in 1962 and the Oilers still made the AFL Championship Game, but they lost by 3 points in that game when he tossed 5 more.

While I will say, there are some suspect players in the hall. Football was really hard to judge back then.
 

Zarozzor

In the Starting Line-Up
Norm Van Brocklin: The First Quarterback to Win a Championship with Two Teams?

Peyton Manning (even though it was a joke) and Tom Brady are the first two quarterbacks to lead two separate teams to championships...maybe. Norm Van Brocklin has a case for this too, but it comes down to what type of credit we assign to quarterbacks for championships. By today's standards, there's an easy cutoff for win responsibility, and it's the game's official starter.

In the 1950s, there were a few murky situations with shared quarterback responsibilities. However, this wasn't the "quarterback by committee approach" from earlier teams with multiple position players throwing passes; this was more like a rotational planned, rotation situation where the coach might think one guy is good for certain situations and another guy for other situations. One good example of this is the 1950s Giants, who often had a rotation of quarterbacks with Charlie Connerly being the main guy (by the way, I have Connerly as the third biggest Hall QB snub.). In 1956, the Giants won their only championshp of that era sandwhiched in between a whole bunch of brutal losses in the final round. In that season, Don Heinrich started almost everry game for the Giants despite being the clear cut #2 behind Connerly. The Giants coach, Jim Lee Howell, indicated that he liked to have Heinrich start the game as the scout quarterback to figure out the defensive alignments before handing responsibilities to Connerly. On the season, Connerly had almost twice as many passing attempts as Heinrich. In the championship game itself, a 47-7 shellacking of the Bears, Connerly threw 10 passes to Heinrich's 7...a low volume output likely due to the blowout...but Connerly finished the game with a 152.1 QB rating while Heinrich was at 58.3.


The Giants situation is probably pretty clear but...it's a matter of creating a consistent criteria to reward Connerly with the 1956 championship, or at least a majority share of the championship, since he was the team's primary quarterback in both the regular season and the game, even though by today's standards he would not be credited.

And this brings us to Norm Van Brocklin, a more difficult case because the 1951 Rams featured two future Hall of Fame quarterbacks (Van Brocklin and Bob Waterfield) who were really a 1-2 punch in no particular order. I imagine that if the Rams had been in existence now, they would have traded on the these guys for a big haul, but back then, trades were very rare.

*Spoiler* - In 1960, after playing a decade with the Rams, Van Brocklin went to the Eagles and won a championship, which is why the 1951 quarterback share becomes more relevant.

In the 1951 season, Waterfield and Van Brocklin platooned as the quarterback for the championship winning team. They finished #4 and #5 in the league in passing yards despite splitting their attempts. Though Waterfield was the official "starter" in most games, Van Brocklin had more passing attampts (194-176) for the season. Van Brocklin would, in 1952 - the next season - establish himself as primary quarterback, throwing 2X more passes that Waterfield and nudging Waterfield into retirement soon after.

In the 1951 NFL Championship Game against Otto Graham's Browns, Waterfield was the starter and struggled for much of the day, going 9-24 with 2 INTs and a dismal 20.1 passer rating. The Rams did not sub in Van Brocklin for the second half as they typically did, perhaps because they went with the old wisdom that the veteran quarterback gives you experience in big games. The Golden Rankings article below refers to Van Brocklin being in the team's dog house for ignoring a running play the game before. Whatever, the reason, Van Brocklin came in towards the end of the 3rd quarter.

The Browns tied the score early in the 4th quarter, leading to Van Brocklin's dramatic championship winning touchdown pass, a needle threader catch and run to Tom Fears, who ran it in for a 73-yard touchdown. Van Brocklin finished 4-6, 128 yards (more than Waterfield's yard total in three quarters) and a 149.3 rating.

There's a strong argument that can be made that Van Brocklin deserves credit as the quarterback of the 1951 Rams, or at least half credit. Since coaches and players didn't anticipate the idea of "assigned credit" for quarterback win/loss records, mainly because these guys were paid peanuts and there were no resumes to put together for free agency, it would seem like an unfair penalty to give Van Brocklin a ZERO share of the championship. In my rankings for championship shares, I used a formula which combines the snap counts of the regular season games and also the emphasized snap counts of the postseason game...Van Brocklin receives just about 50% credit. Now the question is whether or not you use that 50% and round up, making both Van Brocklin and Watefield championship credit, and bringing both of their total to 2, or giving them 1.5 each.


View attachment 32938



Great read. Makes me wonder if I have Brocklin too low on my 1.0 list? I have him #18 and you have him #11.

The 1950 Rams still hold the record for PPG and that was with Brocklin attempting 223 passes and Waterfield attempting 213. Each started 6 games. Talk about being split evenly.
 
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pazrul72

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
2019 Weekly Picks Winner
I did a mini-analysis on this a few years ago, on this site, and I thought teams are better off redshirting, from a bird’s eye perspective.
I would really love to see some numbers, or even just more names of the greatest who rode the bench for a year for when people are clamoring to see Mac Jones this year. “I want Jones to get the Brady, Mahomes, and Rodgers treatment“ would have more weight with other top QBs that also sat at first. Young and starbauch come to mind but they can be dismissed as too old timey when every rookie sat.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Disputed Winner - Week 2 Predict the Score Contest
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Curious to see the oldest known footage of an NFL QB throwing a TD pass.


I don’t see any TD passes here but some great footage of 1934 championship…Ed Danowski is #22 on Giants (white helmets. ). This is the famous sneakers game (though the actual impact of the sneakers is probably BS.)

 
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Ice_Ice_Brady

Disputed Winner - Week 2 Predict the Score Contest
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I’d like to buy a beer for the some guy in like 1955 who said. “You know, maybe it would be better if one team wears a lighter jersey.”
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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You can see how & where rules effected the game. Arguably some of the biggest came around 1980 when OL'm could start to use their hands/arms in pass pro.

Some of the old timers we're talking about ...
IMG_20210516_012354.jpg

I love watching Sonny


Very cool to see how far QB's have come with their drops, footwork. Just a different game. These guys were just making it work, trial & error, by any means. Today kids are funneled through elite schools & camps. Have trainers, mentors, former pros help them. Amazing to see how far it's game in a lot of respects.
 

Mainefan

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Yesterday was my 84th birthday. As a youngster, I lived near Cleveland and I was a rabid, in fact obsessive Cleveland Browns fan. Graham was a marvel. To this day, I have never seen a quarterback with his "touch." He floated the ball right over the outstretched hands of any defender into the capable hands of Dante Lavelli and Mac Speedie, his two best receivers. And accurate? I have a vivid memory of Lavelli running into the end zone, facing squarely away from Graham, holding two hands just above his shoulders without looking back. Graham threw the ball and it arched toward Lavelli and came down right between his hands as if drawn by magnetic attraction. Touchdown. Only then did Lavelli look backward toward Graham and both men raised their fists.

Of course, the Browns were coached by Paul Brown, who was that era's version of Bill Belichik--deadly serious, closed-mouthed, incredibly inventive.

Now I live in New England and have seen the entire career of Tom Brady, and I have been just as obsessed by the Patriots as I was by the Browns. I think I have had the unusual privilege of rooting for two of the greatest quarterbacks of all time--Graham and Brady--and watching them win title after title, dominating the game. As a football fan, I have been incredibly fortunate. My teams almost never lose.

But I would like to warn those reading this note: I am about to move to California, not far from San Francisco. If my luck holds, and I have no reason to think it wont, Trey Lance is going to be a hell of a quarterback.
 
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