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Then maybe I misread your post:I didn’t say it was.
Better defense, running game coaching, and familiarity with the system. Next question?
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CLICK HERE to Register for a free account and login for a smoother ad-free experience. It's easy, and only takes a few moments.Then maybe I misread your post:I didn’t say it was.
Better defense, running game coaching, and familiarity with the system. Next question?
Read what I was responding to. I wasn’t comparing to the 2019 patriots I was comparing to the 2020 bucs.Then maybe I misread your post:
I am saying it was better than Tampa’s. It allowed fewer points with far less help from the offense.
It’s very close but defense is about points. The horrific offense the patriots had makes the defenses job more difficult. If the results are equal the defense with a worse offense to complement it was better.I wouldn't agree here. The Patriots allow 0.1 fewer points per game than Tampa Bay, while having a MUCH worse run defense. Because the Patriots ran more, and couldn't stop the run, there were fewer plays on average in each game than Tampa Bay's. So total points per game were going to be lower for the Pats because the games were shorter (Tampa averaged about 129 plays per game combined between the teams which is middle of the pack, while New England averaged about 120, which is near the bottom). Tampa had slightly more takeaways, 25 to 22.
I'd be curious to see what the average starting field position against each defense was, because the turnover numbers are pretty similar. Obviously, the 2020 Patriots didn't get deep into the opposing territory as much, but Bailey was a monster in the punt game, so I doubt the 2020 Pats defense was facing more short fields than the 2020 Bucs were. But, without data, I can't be sure.
Either way, I think it's at least very debatable that the Pats had a better defense in 2020 than the Bucs.
It’s very close but defense issues about points. The horrific offense the patriots had makes the defenses job more difficult. If the results are equal the defense with a worse offense to complement it was better.
I just don’t buy the approach under lying stats to taint a result. In other words if one defense allows fewer points you can’t really argue that run defense is important and they had a bad run defense so they weren’t better because the effect of the run d is included in the result.See, I think that's too simplified based on the criteria I laid out above. But we agree it's very close so not a hill I'm willing to die on.
I am saying it was better than Tampa’s. It allowed fewer points with far less help from the offense.
You cannot watch the patriots 2020 season and possibly conclude that a healthy Tom brady would not have made the difference in 4 losses compared to the slug we had playing the position. No chance.View attachment 31962
Even if this were true (it isn’t), he would have been playing without his binky Jules for most of the year and would have been supported by a depleted defense, compared to 2019. The 2019 defense was the only reason the Pats managed a 12-4 record. The 2020 defense wasn’t nearly as effective. 9-7 with an even more prominent Brady resting pout face is FAR more likely than 11-5.
It’s very close but defense is about points. The horrific offense the patriots had makes the defenses job more difficult. If the results are equal the defense with a worse offense to complement it was better.
I’m not really concerned about underlying stats that are used to indicate a defense should have allowed more or less points because we have a result.
You cannot watch the patriots 2020 season and possibly conclude that a healthy Tom brady would not have made the difference in 4 losses compared to the slug we had playing the position. No chance.
What does a top 10 defense mean to you?On several occasions, the Pats D has ended up in the top 10 in the league in fewest points allowed but if you actually watched the games (and saw their ability to get off the field on third down, for instance), it was ridiculous to consider them a top 10 defense.
It is never ridiculous to consider a defense that is in the top 10 in points allowed a top 10 defense because that by definition is what it was.On several occasions, the Pats D has ended up in the top 10 in the league in fewest points allowed but if you actually watched the games (and saw their ability to get off the field on third down, for instance), it was ridiculous to consider them a top 10 defense.
I just don’t buy the approach under lying stats to taint a result. In other words if one defense allows fewer points you can’t really argue that run defense is important and they had a bad run defense so they weren’t better because the effect of the run d is included in the result.
The real difference is that each defense is complemented by an offense and when you have a good offense it’s easier to allow fewer points than when you have a poor one.
What does a top 10 defense mean to you?
It’s all factored into the result. Let’s hypothetically say that you are correct that one defense plays a style that results in more plays and the other plays one that results in fewer plays. So? That is factored into points allowed.Sorry, my point wasn't that a good run defense made them better as a whole, but that having a good run defense forced teams to pass more, which lengthened games and resulted in more total plays per game. More total plays per game = more points on average. And while a good offense does make life easier in some respects for their defense, it can also work against them. How many times did we have to argue with someone who looked at final points allowed, but there were 4 or 5 games where they gave up two touchdowns in garbage time that didn't matter? How many garbage time opportunities did TB have versus NE? And I still think the average starting field position for each team was probably similar, due to the lack of turnovers on each team. It's more complicated than you want to believe.
It’s all factored into the result. Let’s hypothetically say that you are correct that one defense plays a style that results in more plays and the other plays one that results in fewer plays. So? That is factored into points allowed.
Every defense faces the situations it faces.
Tampa scored 31 or more 8 times, the patriots did twice. The patriots scored less than 14, 6 times, the bucs 1.
There is no way you can convince me that having a better qb who puts more points on the board and allows you to play from ahead rather than behind hurts the results the defense will put up.
It won't matter if he plays better, the conversation here still would be how much better we'd be if Toamy was still here, how better we'd be if we drafted anyone but Harry or Michel, yada yada.If newton has better offensive weapons, a full offseason, training camp and preseason, will he be better in 2021?
But Tom Brady instead of cam Newton is an enormous difference.
They played 6 games against playoff teams last year not 8.
But they didn’t play the same number of plays. And they didn’t BECAUSE OF HOW THEY PLAYED.Huh? If you extrapolate the average points based on how many plays they had on average per game (total between the teams I mean, not just what the defense allowed to happen), you get this: TB played games that had, on average, 8.3% more plays than the Patriots. So, if they'd played the same number of snaps, you'd expect the numbers to be:
Patriots: 22.1
Bucs: 20.5
Or, if the Patriots had played the same number of plays as the Bucs:
Patriots: 23.9
Bucs: 22.2
It's like saying a basketball team that gives up 80 ppg is automatically better than one that gives up 82 ppg, when they play a slower tempo that results in fewer shots. You're looking at ppg in a vacuum and it simply doesn't tell the whole story.
It hurts the STATS it puts up, including points allowed, which is apparently the only point you're arguing. Have the last word if you want, I'm done.
As he should.When are people going to wise up and realize that Brady quit on the Patriots when things got tough? He had one season in 2019 where his weapons weren't great and he immediately bolted (if Brady waited around, he'd have a great shot at winning #7 with the Pats in 2021). All the guy cares about are super bowls. He doesn't care about the Patriots, the NE fanbase, or even the Tampa organization. He will go wherever he has a good shot to get a ring. I said it before, but if the Bucs didn't re-sign all those players, Brady would be incredibly moody now (in contrast he's as chipper as ever).