Because hyperbole is mind-numbing when it becomes "truth"...

[sb1]

I didn’t say it was.

Then maybe I misread your post:

Better defense, running game coaching, and familiarity with the system. Next question?

 

[Ring 6]

Then maybe I misread your post:

Read what I was responding to. I wasn’t comparing to the 2019 patriots I was comparing to the 2020 bucs.

 

[Sicilian]

I am saying it was better than Tampa’s. It allowed fewer points with far less help from the offense.

I wouldn't agree here. The Patriots allow 0.1 fewer points per game than Tampa Bay, while having a MUCH worse run defense. Because the Patriots ran more, and couldn't stop the run, there were fewer plays on average in each game than Tampa Bay's. So total points per game were going to be lower for the Pats because the games were shorter (Tampa averaged about 129 plays per game combined between the teams which is middle of the pack, while New England averaged about 120, which is near the bottom). Tampa had slightly more takeaways, 25 to 22.

I'd be curious to see what the average starting field position against each defense was, because the turnover numbers are pretty similar. Obviously, the 2020 Patriots didn't get deep into the opposing territory as much, but Bailey was a monster in the punt game, so I doubt the 2020 Pats defense was facing more short fields than the 2020 Bucs were. But, without data, I can't be sure.

Either way, I think it's at least very debatable that the Pats had a better defense in 2020 than the Bucs.

 

[Ring 6]

I wouldn't agree here. The Patriots allow 0.1 fewer points per game than Tampa Bay, while having a MUCH worse run defense. Because the Patriots ran more, and couldn't stop the run, there were fewer plays on average in each game than Tampa Bay's. So total points per game were going to be lower for the Pats because the games were shorter (Tampa averaged about 129 plays per game combined between the teams which is middle of the pack, while New England averaged about 120, which is near the bottom). Tampa had slightly more takeaways, 25 to 22.

I'd be curious to see what the average starting field position against each defense was, because the turnover numbers are pretty similar. Obviously, the 2020 Patriots didn't get deep into the opposing territory as much, but Bailey was a monster in the punt game, so I doubt the 2020 Pats defense was facing more short fields than the 2020 Bucs were. But, without data, I can't be sure.

Either way, I think it's at least very debatable that the Pats had a better defense in 2020 than the Bucs.

It’s very close but defense is about points. The horrific offense the patriots had makes the defenses job more difficult. If the results are equal the defense with a worse offense to complement it was better.
I’m not really concerned about underlying stats that are used to indicate a defense should have allowed more or less points because we have a result.

 

[Sicilian]

It’s very close but defense issues about points. The horrific offense the patriots had makes the defenses job more difficult. If the results are equal the defense with a worse offense to complement it was better.

See, I think that's too simplified based on the criteria I laid out above. But we agree it's very close so not a hill I'm willing to die on.

 

[Ring 6]

See, I think that's too simplified based on the criteria I laid out above. But we agree it's very close so not a hill I'm willing to die on.

I just don’t buy the approach under lying stats to taint a result. In other words if one defense allows fewer points you can’t really argue that run defense is important and they had a bad run defense so they weren’t better because the effect of the run d is included in the result.
The real difference is that each defense is complemented by an offense and when you have a good offense it’s easier to allow fewer points than when you have a poor one.

 

[Patsgofor4]

I am saying it was better than Tampa’s. It allowed fewer points with far less help from the offense.

Even if this were true (it isn’t), he would have been playing without his binky Jules for most of the year and would have been supported by a depleted defense, compared to 2019. The 2019 defense was the only reason the Pats managed a 12-4 record. The 2020 defense wasn’t nearly as effective. 9-7 with an even more prominent Brady resting pout face is FAR more likely than 11-5.

 

[Ring 6]

View attachment 31962

Even if this were true (it isn’t), he would have been playing without his binky Jules for most of the year and would have been supported by a depleted defense, compared to 2019. The 2019 defense was the only reason the Pats managed a 12-4 record. The 2020 defense wasn’t nearly as effective. 9-7 with an even more prominent Brady resting pout face is FAR more likely than 11-5.

You cannot watch the patriots 2020 season and possibly conclude that a healthy Tom brady would not have made the difference in 4 losses compared to the slug we had playing the position. No chance.

 

[Patsgofor4]

It’s very close but defense is about points. The horrific offense the patriots had makes the defenses job more difficult. If the results are equal the defense with a worse offense to complement it was better.
I’m not really concerned about underlying stats that are used to indicate a defense should have allowed more or less points because we have a result.

On several occasions, the Pats D has ended up in the top 10 in the league in fewest points allowed but if you actually watched the games (and saw their ability to get off the field on third down, for instance), it was ridiculous to consider them a top 10 defense.

 

[Patsgofor4]

You cannot watch the patriots 2020 season and possibly conclude that a healthy Tom brady would not have made the difference in 4 losses compared to the slug we had playing the position. No chance.

As always, you dig your heels in and stick to your argument, without offering much to defend your position or offering a comprehensive rebuttal. No reason to keep wasting time trying to feed you facts which you largely ignore.
(*b*tch)

 

[Ring 6]

The patriots had 12 games in 2020 with less than 200 passing yards. Tom
Brady has had 11 in the last 7 years. Of course he makes a 4 game difference. We averaged 13.6 ppp in 9 losses.
A Brady led team has scored less than 14 points 9 times in the last 12 years.

 

[RobertWeathers]

On several occasions, the Pats D has ended up in the top 10 in the league in fewest points allowed but if you actually watched the games (and saw their ability to get off the field on third down, for instance), it was ridiculous to consider them a top 10 defense.

What does a top 10 defense mean to you?

 

[Ring 6]

On several occasions, the Pats D has ended up in the top 10 in the league in fewest points allowed but if you actually watched the games (and saw their ability to get off the field on third down, for instance), it was ridiculous to consider them a top 10 defense.

It is never ridiculous to consider a defense that is in the top 10 in points allowed a top 10 defense because that by definition is what it was.
It may have achieved that under difference circumstances but it still achieved it. In this discussion we aren’t ranking the defenses specifically but saying if you finished better supported by a cam Newton offense vs a Tom Brady offense it’s pretty clear that the results would be even further in the patriots favor of you switched QBs.

 

[Sicilian]

I just don’t buy the approach under lying stats to taint a result. In other words if one defense allows fewer points you can’t really argue that run defense is important and they had a bad run defense so they weren’t better because the effect of the run d is included in the result.
The real difference is that each defense is complemented by an offense and when you have a good offense it’s easier to allow fewer points than when you have a poor one.

Sorry, my point wasn't that a good run defense made them better as a whole, but that having a good run defense forced teams to pass more, which lengthened games and resulted in more total plays per game. More total plays per game = more points on average. And while a good offense does make life easier in some respects for their defense, it can also work against them. How many times did we have to argue with someone who looked at final points allowed, but there were 4 or 5 games where they gave up two touchdowns in garbage time that didn't matter? How many garbage time opportunities did TB have versus NE? And I still think the average starting field position for each team was probably similar, due to the lack of turnovers on each team. It's more complicated than you want to believe.

 

[Ring 6]

What does a top 10 defense mean to you?

Sorry, my point wasn't that a good run defense made them better as a whole, but that having a good run defense forced teams to pass more, which lengthened games and resulted in more total plays per game. More total plays per game = more points on average. And while a good offense does make life easier in some respects for their defense, it can also work against them. How many times did we have to argue with someone who looked at final points allowed, but there were 4 or 5 games where they gave up two touchdowns in garbage time that didn't matter? How many garbage time opportunities did TB have versus NE? And I still think the average starting field position for each team was probably similar, due to the lack of turnovers on each team. It's more complicated than you want to believe.

It’s all factored into the result. Let’s hypothetically say that you are correct that one defense plays a style that results in more plays and the other plays one that results in fewer plays. So? That is factored into points allowed.

Every defense faces the situations it faces.
Tampa scored 31 or more 8 times, the patriots did twice. The patriots scored less than 14, 6 times, the bucs 1.
There is no way you can convince me that having a better qb who puts more points on the board and allows you to play from ahead rather than behind hurts the results the defense will put up.

 

[Sicilian]

It’s all factored into the result. Let’s hypothetically say that you are correct that one defense plays a style that results in more plays and the other plays one that results in fewer plays. So? That is factored into points allowed.

Huh? If you extrapolate the average points based on how many plays they had on average per game (total between the teams I mean, not just what the defense allowed to happen), you get this: TB played games that had, on average, 8.3% more plays than the Patriots. So, if they'd played the same number of snaps, you'd expect the numbers to be:

Patriots: 22.1
Bucs: 20.5

Or, if the Patriots had played the same number of plays as the Bucs:

Patriots: 23.9
Bucs: 22.2

It's like saying a basketball team that gives up 80 ppg is automatically better than one that gives up 82 ppg, when they play a slower tempo that results in fewer shots. You're looking at ppg in a vacuum and it simply doesn't tell the whole story.

Every defense faces the situations it faces.
Tampa scored 31 or more 8 times, the patriots did twice. The patriots scored less than 14, 6 times, the bucs 1.
There is no way you can convince me that having a better qb who puts more points on the board and allows you to play from ahead rather than behind hurts the results the defense will put up.

It hurts the STATS it puts up, including points allowed, which is apparently the only point you're arguing. Have the last word if you want, I'm done.

 

[Bill Lee]

If newton has better offensive weapons, a full offseason, training camp and preseason, will he be better in 2021?

It won't matter if he plays better, the conversation here still would be how much better we'd be if Toamy was still here, how better we'd be if we drafted anyone but Harry or Michel, yada yada.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

But Tom Brady instead of cam Newton is an enormous difference.
They played 6 games against playoff teams last year not 8.

When are people going to wise up and realize that Brady quit on the Patriots when things got tough? He had one season in 2019 where his weapons weren't great and he immediately bolted (if Brady waited around, he'd have a great shot at winning #7 with the Pats in 2021). All the guy cares about are super bowls. He doesn't care about the Patriots, the NE fanbase, or even the Tampa organization. He will go wherever he has a good shot to get a ring. I said it before, but if the Bucs didn't re-sign all those players, Brady would be incredibly moody now (in contrast he's as chipper as ever).

 

[Ring 6]

Huh? If you extrapolate the average points based on how many plays they had on average per game (total between the teams I mean, not just what the defense allowed to happen), you get this: TB played games that had, on average, 8.3% more plays than the Patriots. So, if they'd played the same number of snaps, you'd expect the numbers to be:

Patriots: 22.1
Bucs: 20.5

Or, if the Patriots had played the same number of plays as the Bucs:

Patriots: 23.9
Bucs: 22.2

It's like saying a basketball team that gives up 80 ppg is automatically better than one that gives up 82 ppg, when they play a slower tempo that results in fewer shots. You're looking at ppg in a vacuum and it simply doesn't tell the whole story.



It hurts the STATS it puts up, including points allowed, which is apparently the only point you're arguing. Have the last word if you want, I'm done.

But they didn’t play the same number of plays. And they didn’t BECAUSE OF HOW THEY PLAYED.
Are you honestly telling me that you would rather have your defense stay on the field for 100 plays and give up 30 points than stay on the field 80 plays and give up 25 because it’s fewer points per play?
You are arguing that giving up long time consuming 15 play Td drives is better than short 6 fg drives.
7/15 = .47 points per play
3/6. =. .5 ppp

so if the second team stayed on the forks for 15 plays they give up 7.5 points. They didn’t. Because they got off the field.

 

[Ring 6]

When are people going to wise up and realize that Brady quit on the Patriots when things got tough? He had one season in 2019 where his weapons weren't great and he immediately bolted (if Brady waited around, he'd have a great shot at winning #7 with the Pats in 2021). All the guy cares about are super bowls. He doesn't care about the Patriots, the NE fanbase, or even the Tampa organization. He will go wherever he has a good shot to get a ring. I said it before, but if the Bucs didn't re-sign all those players, Brady would be incredibly moody now (in contrast he's as chipper as ever).

As he should.