PATRIOTS NEWS Belichick criticism mega-thread

[upstater1]

Do they win the 2003 SB if Brady isn't bailing out the defense in that game?

No. Brady had the 3rd greatest performance in SB history that game.

But then again, the game against the Titans had some less than stellar offensive play.

This goes both ways. Has always gone both ways. The Patriots don't win even get to the 2018 Super Bowl if not for Brady's stellar play in the 2 playoff games before that. But then the defense carried them to victory in the 2018 SB.

 

[upstater1]

Absolutely they were a huge factor. I agree.

Could the difference between a top 5 defense and a top 10 defense be the offense's ability to sustain drives? I say yes.

Just thinking out loud here:

The Pats were top 6 or better in total drives, number of plays, starting field position and lowest turnover percentage.

I'm not saying that the defense wasn't a major key to those early championships because they were but I am saying that Brady and the offense wasn't a bunch schlubs because they weren't. Brady had the "it" factor from day one. He wasn't the Goat yet but had "it".

Defences absolutely do wear down during continuous drives. I've heard Brady and BB mention it a few times during the Games to Glory or the Do Your Job documentaries. We saw it during SB 51.

It's a complimentary game.

2003 NFL Standings & Team Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2003 NFL Standings & Team Stats including AFC and NFC results and standings on Pro-football-reference.com

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As usual, things get a little lost when it comes to this discussion with various posters claiming various different things. Rob ties 2001 to 2003. I don't. I thought Brady was already the man by 2003, so I agree with most on that, and disagree with Rob. But in 2001, the offense was limited and carried by the defense. This is why I looked at TOP in 2001 and the Patriots did not have an advantage in 2001.

 

[Rob0729]

Rob, you pointed out something earlier in this thread that you forget when you bring up certain games to say Brady wasn’t elite in 01 or 03.

The game was a lot different back then in the amount of contact defenders could use against receivers. The tactics the Pats used to stop Peyton Manning were also used by opponents against Brady as well.

You have fought the good fight, but the argument that Brady wasn’t an elite QB from the beginning is a losing argument.

He lifted as bad of a collection of skill players the Pats have ever had up to that point into an offense good enough to win a SB. It was almost as bad as the 06 cast. I love Troy Brown, but he, David Patten, Antwain Smith, Jermaine Wiggins, Rod Rutledge and JR Redmond (who was on the field rather than Pats HoFer Kevin Faulk in the SB winning drive) are in my opinion the worse collection of skill players to win a SB. Oh, I forgot they also had a rookie LT and a center who had to switch positions with a guard when they went into the shotgun. Winning a SB with that cast is the GOATist of all the GOAT’s accomplishments. 03 was only a little better.

This whole argument is unfair. Bill Belichick is right up there with Paul Brown, Bill Walsh and Tom Landry as a HC in my humble estimation. But, he’s the one who’s put himself in this situation by outlasting his great QB who went on to win a championship in his 1st season with another team.

Tom’s proven he can win without Bill. The cruel reality is Bill hasn’t proven he can win without Tom. I really don’t think this will end well for Bill which doesn’t make me happy. I’ve rooted for BIll since he was the DC of the NYG, and I still root for him despite Butler and other decisions that I can’t defend. Being 69 years old is a lot different than being 43. All of us have a shelf life. And, a coaches job is harder than the QBs especially when he does not have a great QB. I really don’t think Belichick still has greatness in him. I hope I’m wrong.

I fought the fight for truth. It isn't my fault the Pro-Brady crowd refuses to believe it and want to rewrite history. If you want to live in that fantasy world, that's fine with me. I choose to deal with reality.

I never said Brady was bad or didn't play a key roll before 2004. I just said he wasn't elite yet and the defense had more to do with those first two Super Bowl seasons than him.

 

[venecol]

Bill after his 300th win against Cleveland:

“It’s a great privilege to coach this team and to coach the guys that I’ve coached throughout my career,” Belichick said of the milestone in his postgame press conference. “Fortunately, I didn’t play in any of those games. That’s a good thing for us. But I’ve had a lot of good players, a lot of great players and they’re the ones that win the games. I’ve had a lot of great assistant coaches on my staff through the wins at Cleveland and certainly here. I was a part of those. But honestly, players win games in this league and I’ve been fortunate that I’ve coached a lot of great ones.”

Like I said, Bill was very lucky to have Brady play for 20 years under him. Even Bill agrees.

Brady >> Belichick. Case closed

 

[Rob0729]

As usual, things get a little lost when it comes to this discussion with various posters claiming various different things. Rob ties 2001 to 2003. I don't. I thought Brady was already the man by 2003, so I agree with most on that, and disagree with Rob. But in 2001, the offense was limited and carried by the defense. This is why I looked at TOP in 2001 and the Patriots did not have an advantage in 2001.

I don't tie any seasons. I just don't Brady was elite yet in 2003. Sue me. Whether it was him or just the way the Pats played, the offense had way too many sub par games where the defense literally had to shutout the opposing team only give up three or six points to win.

But I look at every season as its own. I just didn't think Brady showed he could carry the team or offense week in and week out until 2004.

 

[Rob0729]

“It’s a great privilege to coach this team and to coach the guys that I’ve coached throughout my career,” Belichick said of the milestone in his postgame press conference. “Fortunately, I didn’t play in any of those games. That’s a good thing for us. But I’ve had a lot of good players, a lot of great players and they’re the ones that win the games. I’ve had a lot of great assistant coaches on my staff through the wins at Cleveland and certainly here. I was a part of those. But honestly, players win games in this league and I’ve been fortunate that I’ve coached a lot of great ones.”

Like I said, Bill was very lucky to have Brady play for 20 years under him. Even Bill agrees.

Brady >> Belichick. Case closed

Way to take what Belichick said out of context. He said players not Brady or player.

 

[upstater1]

Rug pulled out from under him or not he went 6-10, 7-9, 7-9, then the playoff season, then “the rug pulled out from under him” season. He’s had 2 winning seasons without Brady and one playoff appearance. I hate making this argument because I think Bill is probably the greatest coach of all time but cherry picking stats to help build him up is ridiculous.

How in the world is it cherry-picking? It's an absolute fact he had the rug pulled out from under him. This is just bizarre denial of a basic fact about what Modell did.

Even the QB that Belichick preferred (much to Modell's dismay) ended up going to multiple Pro Bowls while Modell's preference (Kosar) flamed out and never played again. Belichick's decisions were the right ones. In the 20 games prior to Modell pulling that stuff the Browns were 15-6. As soon as he did that, they went 2-10.

 

[upstater1]

I don't tie any seasons. I just don't Brady was elite yet in 2003. Sue me. Whether it was him or just the way the Pats played, the offense had way too many sub par games where the defense literally had to shutout the opposing team only give up three or six points to win.

But I look at every season as its own. I just didn't think Brady showed he could carry the team or offense week in and week out until 2004.

OK, I'll sue you.

Seriously, it's a simple disagreement.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Way to take what Belichick said out of context. He said players not Brady or player.

You're arguing with an idiot...

 

[lancerman]

No. Brady had the 3rd greatest performance in SB history that game.

But then again, the game against the Titans had some less than stellar offensive play.

This goes both ways. Has always gone both ways. The Patriots don't win even get to the 2018 Super Bowl if not for Brady's stellar play in the 2 playoff games before that. But then the defense carried them to victory in the 2018 SB.

Agreed. Those were complimentary efforts. It’s foolish to site the defensive and offensive rankings to suggest Brady wasn’t important

 

[venecol]

Way to take what Belichick said out of context. He said players not Brady or player.

He said "great players." Who is greater than the GOAT?

Rob nobody cares about your take about Brady being elite in 2001 or 2003 or whenever. It doesn't matter. We have the benefit of seeing his entire career unfold. There isn't any doubt in anyone's mind (aside from Rob Parker) that Brady is the GOAT.

This is on the field of play, in the locker room, and even when practicing with players during the offseason. He has the "it" of the greats (Russell, Orr, MJ). The thing that elevates the play of his teammates around him. If you can't see it, you're just being obtuse or your blind.

 

[venecol]

You're arguing with an idiot...

LMAO, pendejo.

 

[sb1]

Just so I know, which Superbowl did Brady cost us?

2007? Can't be that. he got us the go-ahead TD in 4th quarter with 2 min left. Defense failed.
20011? Can't be that. he got us the go-ahead TD in 4th quarter with 2 min left. Defense failed.
20017? Can't be that. he got us the go-ahead TD in 4th quarter with 2 min left. Defense Plus he was like 500+ yards and 3 TDs with no picks. Defense uber-mega failed.

Yeah. Brady never cost us any Super Bowl. Yes he has had some Super Bowl games that weren't better than some of his others but in 10 tries he's never had a real stinker game like say Peyton Manning in SB48 that cost his team the game. Zero bad SB games out of 10... not too shabby at all.

Too bad Belichick benched Malcolm Butler or he could have had similar bragging rights.

 

[sb1]

LMAO, pendejo.

If that happens... at least that frees up my Sundays for a while. Yikes.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Agreed. Those were complimentary efforts. It’s foolish to site the defensive and offensive rankings to suggest Brady wasn’t important

No one is saying Brady wasn't important...it's just that some of us think that the defense was MORE important from 2001-2004.

LMAO, pendejo.

At least I admit my mistakes...

it's Sunday, so shouldn't you be at church right now worshipping Lord Brady?

 

[venecol]

LMAO at Timmy (TrollingBadly12 - stole this) being full in on Stidham being the full time replacement for the GOAT TFB.

Could there ever be a worse take in the history of this forum? Idk, maybe since I haven't been around since the onset, but either way, this is gold.

I'm surprised he didn't change his handle to JarrettStidham4.

@KontradictioN may have even worse takes from our Timmy, maybe.

 

[sb1]

How in the world is it cherry-picking? It's an absolute fact he had the rug pulled out from under him. This is just bizarre denial of a basic fact about what Modell did.

Even the QB that Belichick preferred (much to Modell's dismay) ended up going to multiple Pro Bowls while Modell's preference (Kosar) flamed out and never played again. Belichick's decisions were the right ones. In the 20 games prior to Modell pulling that stuff the Browns were 15-6. As soon as he did that, they went 2-10.

Belichick was never in for the long haul for the job after Kosar was shown the door IMO. Modell was looking for a reason to send him packing and the negativity he got from players and coaches about Bill's style was all the reason he needed. The way it happened was partly Bill's fault but he was a new coach and needed to learn how to play that kind of game especially with the likes of Modell.

He can get away with that and a lot of things with Kraft but not all owners are like him. Like if Modell was owner here and not Kraft- no doubt at all Bill would have been fired right away after Spygate happened.

 

[sb1]

No one is saying Brady wasn't important...it's just that some of us think that the defense was MORE important from 2001-2004.

Patriots don't make it to any Super Bowls in that time with another QB besides Brady.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

LMAO at Timmy (TrollingBadly12 - stole this) being full in on Stidham being the full time replacement for the GOAT TFB.

Could there ever be a worse take in the history of this forum? Idk, maybe since I haven't been around since the onset, but either way, this is gold.

I'm surprised he didn't change his handle to JarrettStidham4.

@KontradictioN may have even worse takes from our Timmy, maybe.

Hey, I am an amateur. I don't spend my days looking at film, and I admit when I'm wrong. Unlike you, I have a good education, so I have better things to do.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Patriots don't make it to any Super Bowls in that time with another QB besides Brady.

LOL, there are plenty of good QBs whom Belichick could have inserted into the 2001-2004 teams to give us the same result. He easily could have won SBs with Brees, Manning, Favre, or Marino, to name a few.