Belichick criticism mega-thread

[gobesmug]

I highly doubt it. They are both big time talents. He only freezes guys because they suck.

His freezes out when guys run bad routes or give up on plays.

Example, Harry taking a lazy cut inside allowing leverage to the CB who got an easy pick 6. Or Meyers giving up on a go route because he didn't think Brady would target him.

It's possible AJ and Metcalf could have made similar mistakes that pissed Brady off.

 

[Deus Irae]

His freezes out when guys run bad routes or give up on plays.

Example, Harry taking a lazy cut inside allowing leverage to the CB who got an easy pick 6. Or Meyers giving up on a go route because he didn't think Brady would target him.

It's possible AJ and Metcalf could have made similar mistakes that pissed Brady off.

The whole thing about Brady freezing people out, especially rookies, is wildly overblown.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

We will never know.

Who has he frozen out that went to have success somewhere else? Heard about how he should throw to guys like Chad Jackson, Taylor Price, Aaron Dobson, N’Keal Harry, etc. Not one of these guys has even become that 500 yard, #3 receiver that people assumed they be. It just doesn’t work like that. It isn’t like a “I’d rather be driving a luxury vehicle” but rather “this car doesn‘t work.”

I think the biggest criticism for Brady is failing to develop and recognize Edelman before he almost left in 2012, even though the few times Edelman replaced Welker, he did really well. Maybe it was because he and Wes were boyfriends at the time. Instead they went out and signed Amendola to a huge contract. It all worked out in the end, but it would have been interesting if they’d have identified Edelman as Welker’s replacement, saved a ton of money, and probably signed someone else like Emmanuel Sanders (that was a weak offer they made him and a big mistake.)

 

[upstater1]

I gave the points allowed in the earlier post. You even quoted the post.

Belichick criticism mega-thread


Admittedly, you were clueless in that response,



but you did respond.

There is a strategy. It is called bend-but-don't-break. Belichick has been known to employ it. With bend but don't break, you make sure not to give up big gains or anything over the top. You sometimes give up field goals, but you constrict the field should the opponent flawlessly execute a series of plays and make it down the field. You give up yards, but you don't give up touchdowns. This is why the Patriots defense finished top 10 in points given up 17 times, while they finished bottom half of the league in yards 10 times.

Look at the 2018 Patriots defense: 7th in pts given up, 21st in yards given up, they shut down the Rams powerful offense in the Super Bowl.

This is a defensive strategy that the greatest defensive coach, and the greatest head coach, in the history of the NFL has employed to win a good many games for the Patriots.

It's important to learn the strategy the team is employing so you can understand and enjoy the game more once you gain more insight.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Who has he frozen out that went to have success somewhere else? Heard about how he should throw to guys like Chad Jackson, Taylor Price, Aaron Dobson, N’Keal Harry, etc. Not one of these guys has even become that 500 yard, #3 receiver that people assumed they be. It just doesn’t work like that. It isn’t like a “I’d rather be driving a luxury vehicle” but rather “this car doesn‘t work.”

I think the biggest criticism for Brady is failing to develop and recognize Edelman before he almost left in 2012, even though the few times Edelman replaced Welker, he did really well. Maybe it was because he and Wes were boyfriends at the time. Instead they went out and signed Amendola to a huge contract. It all worked out in the end, but it would have been interesting if they’d have identified Edelman as Welker’s replacement, saved a ton of money, and probably signed someone else like Emmanuel Sanders (that was a weak offer they made him and a big mistake.)

I've gone back and forth on the Brady freeze-out perception issue for some time. I think there is something to it but at what level i'm not certain.

I agree. A majority of players who have sucked/burnt out after they left here Tom didn't really throw to anyways. That is fact.

Because of the Os complexity and Tom's overall pickiness, veteran WRs had more success in this offense than rookies/young players. That is also fact. I also think that is a big reason why Bill never spent a lot of high picks on WRs.

I think that is a big reason why JE11 took so long to get in Tom's good graces. That and WW was getting 140 targets a year.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I've gone back and forth on the Brady freeze-out perception issue for some time. I think there is something to it but at what level i'm not certain.

I agree. A majority of players who have sucked/burnt out after they left here Tom didn't really throw to anyways. That is fact.

Because of the Os complexity and Tom's overall pickiness, veteran WRs had more success in this offense than rookies/young players. That is also fact. I also think that is a big reason why Bill never spent a lot of high picks on WRs.

I think that is a big reason why JE11 took so long to get in Tom's good graces. That and WW was getting 140 targets a year.

When Tom went to Tampa, he had a lot of talented guys and struggled badly for half the season. What was the ultimate solution? Simplify the offense. It worked. When Peyton went to Denver, it was almost the exact same story. Change to offense to a simple route tree, often using the same personnel and concepts.

What did we say about Antonio Brown in the 2019 offseason as he was on the trading block before going to Oakland? I know what I said. He’ll never fit with Tom. Plays with a free lancing QB. Tom won’t like his diva, me-first attitude and his shoddy route running. That’s what basically everyone on the board said. We have a lot of assumptions we should reexamine.

Is Randy Moss really a genius at reading defenses? Dude basically ran a go route every down and would occasionally change it up. Many thought he was a great signing but also worried about his ability to grasp “the system.” Josh Gordon seemed like an intelligent guy, but was it really his fit in the system why Tom started throwing to him immediately?

I think this “system fit” is largely hogwash and an excuse for bust picks or bust free agents. Sure, the Patriots offense depends on reading a defense and receivers making adjustments. So do most offenses. Tom needs guys to be detailed, precise route runners who understand coverages, leverages, etc. Nothing unique about that. There’s probably very, very few really good WRs in the NFL who would really struggle in New England.

Cooks and Lloyd had the exact same problems they‘ve shown everywhere else. Guys who were thought to have failed for playbook adjustment reasons (Demaryius Thomas, Reggie Wayne, Joey Galloway, etc.) were actually just cooked. Guys who were called out for being “too raw” and not cerebral enough (Dobson, Jackson) were actually just not NFL caliber receivers...busts happen everywhere. Many guys were thought to be something more than their talent level due to draft position, speed, etc, but really were always flawed beyond what Tom (and other teams) got out of them (Dorsett, Bethel Johnson.)

 

[RobertWeathers]

Sure, the Patriots offense depends on reading a defense and receivers making adjustments. So do most offenses. Tom needs guys to be detailed, precise route runners who understand coverages, leverages, etc. Nothing unique about that. There’s probably very, very few really good WRs in the NFL who would really struggle in New England. Cooks and Lloyd had the exact same problems they‘ve shown everywhere else.

It's been well documented that most college & NFL offenses don't ask the WRs to read defenses and make their own route adjustments based on the coverage. We've heard multiple WRs who come here from other teams say that.

Players like JE, Branch, Troy Brown and Gronk, Tom knew where the were going to be because they saw the coverage the same way. Call it smarts, 5th sense, practice, whatever.

Other players like AB, Josh, etc. ran the route they were told and because of their ability he threw it to them.

IMO Moss did both.

I think you are right in the respect that a talented WRs will succeed anywhere they go. Including NE.

However we've also seen decently-talented WRs succeed here because they got on the same page with Tom.

Those without worldly talent and low football IQ have been vanquished by Tom to the phantom zone.

 

[Deus Irae]

There is a strategy. It is called bend-but-don't-break. Belichick has been known to employ it. With bend but don't break, you make sure not to give up big gains or anything over the top. You sometimes give up field goals, but you constrict the field should the opponent flawlessly execute a series of plays and make it down the field. You give up yards, but you don't give up touchdowns. This is why the Patriots defense finished top 10 in points given up 17 times, while they finished bottom half of the league in yards 10 times.

Look at the 2018 Patriots defense: 7th in pts given up, 21st in yards given up, they shut down the Rams powerful offense in the Super Bowl.

This is a defensive strategy that the greatest coach, and the greatest defensive coach, in the history of the NFL has employed to win a good many games for the Patriots.

It's important to learn the strategy the team is employing so you can understand and enjoy the game more once you gain more insight.

While it's cute to see that you seem to think the excuse for letting up more points but still winning was a bend but not break system with the defense gelling, reality lets us all know that such is not how it worked. The team let up 16.5 ppg in the first two games, both losses. The team then proceeded to let up 21.5 ppg in the next 4 games, which was a 3-1 stretch.

Now, why, you may ask, were they able to win more games despite giving up more points. It wasn't because of bend but not break defense. It was because the scoring output rose from 10 ppg to 30.25 ppg. And it's no surprise that the team finishing by putting up more than 25 ppg in the final 14 games of the season won a lot of games (11-3), while the team only managing 10 ppg in its first two games started off the season with 2 losses.

Defense, first 2 games - 16.5 ppg
Defense, last 14 games - 16.0 ppg

Offense, first 2 games - 10.0 ppg
Offense, last 14 games, 25.1 ppg

 

[jal]

I think Bill and Tom obviously helped each other, but on reflection I do believe that Bill’s flaws (mostly in personality) would have cost him dearly if he had anyone other than Tom as the QB.

Bill is a great tactician and was an early pioneer in understanding the importance of value in a salary cap world. But he is NOT an easy coach to play for; his style obviously wears on people and players may have tuned him out at various points over a two decade period but for Brady accepting Bill’s leadership without much question. 2003, 2009, 2018 and this past year come to mind in particular, often tied to when Bill suddenly shipped a popular leader in the locker room out of town.

Beyond his obvious contributions on the field, Tom’s personality and acceptance of Bill’s style suggest to me that he is the ONLY qb Bill could have co-existed with for so long. I find it very hard to believe that Peyton or Rodgers wouldn’t have rejected Bill at some point leading to a showdown that usually results in the franchise QB winning and often creating a negative locker room situation imploding a season before the final showdown (see: Jim Mora, Mike McCarthy).

Moreover, what other star QB would have sat mostly silent as the Coach/GM stacked resources on the defense and repeatedly sent away offensive weapons / personnel and left the QB to “figure it out” with spare parts on offense. Ironically I believe that this is a better way to win than overloading resources on offense because great QBs can often score enough even with bad supporting casts (within reason - so not 2006/2013 level bad), but it certainly doesn’t make it fun for the QB nor does it help with the all-important throwing statistics. I find it impossible to think Peyton or Aaron would have bit their tongues throwing to the likes of Reche Caldwell, Aaron Dobson / Kembrell Thompkins, and Chris Hogan (to name a few) as their top outside WRs while the defensive genius coach poured draft picks and salary cap space on the defense.

Then you also have to consider that Brady never pushed the boundaries on his contracts, which enabled not only more cap space but also was used as a point of negotiating leverage when signing other players.

No doubt that Bill mostly built the team the right way to maximize the chances of winning under Brady and few other coaches/GMs would have done the same. But I doubt Bill would have lasted more than 5-10 years tops with any other quarterback - he either would have adjusted to survive (with less winning as a result) or more likely would have been shown the door.

 

[venecol]

There is a strategy. It is called bend-but-don't-break. Belichick has been known to employ it.

This is a defensive strategy that the greatest defensive coach, and the greatest head coach, in the history of the NFL has employed to win a good many games for the Patriots.

LMAO

 

[upstater1]

LMAO

It's true they didn't win every game in the last 20 years. They lost a few. But they won more than any team in the history of the league and more than any team will ever win again.

Their winning achievements dominated and destroyed your pathetic team.

 

[crawhammer]

Also, Drew Bledsoe is quite capable of taking a team that was .600 the previous season, then lost the first two games, all the way to the Super Bowl--if that team's defense is lead by Bill Belichick. Heck, Bledsoe even played most of the 2001 AFCCG and lead the team to a win that day too!

Bledsoe sucked in that AFCCG. He completed under 50% of his passes including 7-18 in the 2nd half. The Patriots won the game with 2 special teams touchdowns and an epic 4th quarter mental breakdown by Kordell Stewart (from which he never recovered).

You don't seem to have any clue how rare it is for a quarterback, any quarterback, to be successful in the postseason. Never mind the kind of sustained success Brady has had.

For example, Bledsoe, absolute garbage in the postseason: 7 games (6 starts), 3-3, 6 TD's, 12 INT's, 190 Y/G, 51.2%, 54.9 passer rating. The only season he had a deep postseason run, 1996, he threw 7 picks and was a pitiful disaster in the Super Bowl. Anyone who actually believes Bledsoe would have gone on to win any Super Bowls in NE had he remained the starter is totally deranged. That Belichick stuck with Brady in 2001 and beyond is the easiest decision he's ever made.

More "great" quarterbacks who routinely stunk it up in the postseason...

Brett Favre... how many backbreaking picks did he have in the postseason? Far too many to mention. Let's just summarize it like this... in his 11 postseason losses, he threw 25 picks. 25!

Jim Kelly... generally a bad postseason QB but those 4 Super Bowls that Buffalo lost in a row, look no further than: 4 games, 2 TD's, 7 INT's & 3 fumbles lost.

Dan Marino... the best pure passer ever imo but he was not a good playoff quarterback. 8-10 record, 24 INT's, 77.1 passer rating. He got particularly bad during the backend of his career, throwing only 5 TD's with 10 INT's in his last 6 games (2-4 record). He of course never won a Super Bowl, which may be the greatest underachievement in the history of the league.

John Elway... sneaky not so great QB in the postseason. Had 18 INT's in his first 14 postseason games. 2-3 in Super Bowls, the first win was all Terrell Davis (30-157 & 3 TD's), Elway had a 51.9 passer rating. The three Super Bowl losses, Elway was terrible (combined 2 TD's & 6 INT's).

Peyton Manning... for all his regular season greatness he was a postseason boob. Just sticking with the two postseasons he got rings... 2006, 4 games, 3 TD's, 7 INT's, 70.5 passer rating. 2015, 3 games, 2 TD's, 1 INT, 179.7 Y/G, 75.4 passer rating. He also somehow managed to fumble 8 times (losing 5) in his last 8 postseason games.

Roethlisberger... ok he's got two rings but he had a 22.6 passer rating in the first win and overall 3 TD's and 5 INT's in three SB appearances. He also has a whopping 31 turnovers in 22 postseason games.

That's the tip of the iceberg. Really what Brady has accomplished in the postseason is mindboggling. The only two quarterbacks you can even whisper in the same conversation with Brady, in terms of postseason success, are Montana and Bradshaw. But even still, Brady is now lapping those two as well.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Imagine watching the 2020 season and thinking: what a great time to really double down on my Bill >>>>>>> Tom arguments that were already hanging on by a thread before the split.

 

[venecol]

Imagine watching the 2020 season and thinking: what a great time to really double down on my Bill >>>>>>> Tom arguments that were already hanging on by a thread before the split.

Yea, who would've thought that Coaches win games and players lose them.

What an absolutely embarrassing take.

 

[catent]

So, Brady's been the LOAT, Luckiest of all time?

Didn't realize Rob Parker's had an acct here since 2006. That's a lot of dedication from a hater. Lol

I honestly can't find a place where Rob said Brady is/was "lucky", basically anywhere. Doesn't seem that's his point at all.

 

[catent]

Imagine watching the 2020 season and thinking: what a great time to really double down on my Bill >>>>>>> Tom arguments that were already hanging on by a thread before the split.

Where did Rob say Belichick > Brady?

His stance is that Belichick deserves more credit for the first half of the dynasty and Brady deserves more credit for the latter half. He has stated that position repeatedly. In fact, he referred to Belichick as a "downright medicore" GM at one point. He has also referred to Brady at the GOAT and a walking legend.

I really don't understand why folks are raking him over the coals as anti-Brady poster. There are very few of those here on this forum, and nearly all of them are trolls who support another team.

 

[catent]

When you have posters calling the guy's whose position is - 'Brady is a walking legend, GOAT QB, and deserves more credit than Belichick for the second half of the Patriots dynasty' - Rob Parker for his alleged Brady hate, you know we've reached an irrational, witch-hunt level divide on this forum.

 

[catent]

LMAO

Do the Rams' games not count? Only the Eagles game?

The poster didn't say Belichick's defenses are without flaw. In fact, he didn't even say that every game he's coached has been flawless - the phrase he used is, "good many games", and he's absolutely correct.

 

[lancerman]

Do the Rams' games not count? Only the Eagles game?

The poster didn't say Belichick's defenses are without flaw. In fact, he didn't even say that every game he's coached has been flawless - the phrase he used is, "good many games", and he's absolutely correct.

Super Bowl 38: Brady bails out the defense

Super Bowl 39: Brady has a 110 passer rating and keeps the game out of any danger most of the wa

Super Bowl 49/51: Brady completes the two largest SB comebacks ever.

Super Bowl 52: Brady has arguably the greatest QB performance

 

[venecol]

I honestly can't find a place where Rob said Brady is/was "lucky", basically anywhere. Doesn't seem that's his point at all.

Rob can say that Brady "walks on water and turns water into wine," but I can't make a joke about Rob vis-a-vis Parker saying he's the LOAT?

Come on drei, some of you guys are taking yourselves way too seriously. Football is a form of entertainment. This isn't a place where serious policies are being discussed.

When some guys have outrageous takes they open themselves up to ridicule. I'm on record saying the dynasty was the result of "both" BB and TFB being together for as long as they were. However, there is no doubt that BB benefitted way more from having the GOAT than the other way around. We can argue about the level of things but when some (upstater) come out with rose colored lenses posting like they're literally Little Steven in defense of Dad, I'm going to have fun.

If you want I can add the below to my signature. Lol

WARNING: Entering a tongue in cheek zone.