Belichick criticism mega-thread

[Rob0729]

I think a lot of people confuse saying Brady was elite from day 1 with Brady was GOAT from day one. Obviously he was not the latter yet but he was elite. He had the reins on him yes but there was no question he stood out from the pack from day 1. It was night and day having him in there, just like it would be with any elite QB.

I don't think he was elite from day one. He was a game manager his first few years.

And yes, it was night and day between him and Bledsoe, but that had a lot to do with Bledsoe. Bledsoe sucked in the Patriots' offense. He looked almost as bad as Cam Newton at times. It was painful to watch him throw a screen pass to Troy Brown and watch it hit Brown in the ankles every time.

Brady was good when he became a starter. He wasn't elite yet. He wasn't the GOAT. He showed flashes of greatness like the final drive in the Super Bowl, but he showed that he still had a ways to go like the fact the Pats offense only scored 10 points in the Super Bowl prior to that last drive.

 

[203Pat]

You are overstating what he had and what he added.

First, Troy Brown was a back up until Belichick came in 2000.

And Kevin Faulk wasn't Kevin Faulk yet. He was a great returner, but he didn't do much on offense.

And Ty Law couldn't play zone when Belichick first got here and he had to re-learn the position.

And many people were talking about cutting Willie McGinest and keeping Chris Slade. McGinest was declining back in 1999 and 2000 and Belichick helped to give him new life. A lot of it was because he had I think back issues, but Belichick put him in a position to revive his career because he was moved to OLB and didn't have to put his hand in the dirt before every snap.

Vinatieri sucked in 2000 and rebounded in 2001. The Pats lost several games on missed kicks by Adam.

And Belichick added a lot of solid players who only lasted a year as far as production, but they were major contributors in 2001 like Bryan Cox who's hard hitting style helped change the attitude of the defense.

Seriously, why are people interested in rewriting history to diminish what Belichick did.

I am not saying that Bill didn't develop these players but this notion that Bill had to overhaul the roster from player 1 to 53 is overblown. There was talent there. Bill also had a great offseason heading into 2001 drafting Seymour and Light and bringing in Stephen Neal, Joe Andruzzi, Mike Compton, Antowain Smith, Mike Vrabel, David Patten, and Otis Smith.

With all that being said he was 0-2 in his second year as head coach until Brady started. There is a good chance Bill is gone in 2002 if Bledsoe never gets hurt.

 

[sb1]

I don't think he was elite from day one. He was a game manager his first few years.

And yes, it was night and day between him and Bledsoe, but that had a lot to do with Bledsoe. Bledsoe sucked in the Patriots' offense. He looked almost as bad as Cam Newton at times. It was painful to watch him throw a screen pass to Troy Brown and watch it hit Brown in the ankles every time.

Brady was good when he came into the league. He wasn't elite yet. He wasn't the GOAT. He showed flashes of greatness like the final drive in the Super Bowl, but he showed that he still had a ways to go like the fact the Pats offense only scored 10 points in the Super Bowl prior to that last drive.

The Rams had a top 5 defense in the league. I wouldn't put that against Brady.

Brady wasn't a game manager because it was a limitation on him, he was a top shelf QB who had the reins put on him from the coaches. We saw what happened when the reins came off.

 

[Rob0729]

I am not saying that Bill didn't develop these players but this notion that Bill had to overhaul the roster from player 1 to 53 is overblown. There was talent there. Bill also had a great offseason heading into 2001 drafting Seymour and Light and bringing in Stephen Neal, Joe Andruzzi, Mike Compton, Antowain Smith, Mike Vrabel, David Patten, and Otis Smith.

With all that being said he was 0-2 in his second year as head coach until Brady started. There is a good chance Bill is gone in 2002 if Bledsoe never gets hurt.

I didn't say he totally redid the roster. He did retool it and that included using existing players in different ways. As I pointed out, McGinest was starting to struggle as a 4-3 DE because he was injured a lot. Belichick moved him to OLB and McGinest was able to resurrect his career because of it.

And yes, Bledsoe was holding Belichick back. But word was that Bill was going to have a quick hook on Drew if Drew didn't get hurt in the second game. But again, let's not make it like Brady came in and was elite. He wasn't. He just ran the Pats offense worlds better than Bledsoe who couldn't run it.

In 2001, Brady passed for 2843 yards, 18 TDs, and 12INTs. He had a very respectable 63.9% completion percentage, but that is because in part he threw a lot of short safe passes and not a lot of intermediate or long ones. The Patriots made extra effort for him not to do too much or take him out of his comfort zone.

 

[203Pat]

I didn't say he totally redid the roster. He did retool it and that included using existing players in different ways. As I pointed out, McGinest was starting to struggle as a 4-3 DE because he was injured a lot. Belichick moved him to OLB and McGinest was able to resurrect his career because of it.

And yes, Bledsoe was holding Belichick back. But word was that Bill was going to have a quick hook on Drew if Drew didn't get hurt in the second game. But again, let's not make it like Brady came in and was elite. He wasn't. He just ran the Pats offense worlds better than Bledsoe who couldn't run it.

In 2001, Brady passed for 2843 yards, 18 TDs, and 12INTs. He had a very respectable 63.9% completion percentage, but that is because in part he threw a lot of short safe passes and not a lot of intermediate or long ones. The Patriots made extra effort for him not to do too much or take him out of his comfort zone.

Yet from what I remember Bill didn't protect McGinest in the expansion draft for the Texans after that first super bowl. As for Drew, why pay him $100 million before that 2001 season if he wasn't a fit and was going to have him on a short leash? This is revisionist history. Bill tied himself to Drew and they were going to go down together had Bledsoe not gotten injured.

Brady was not elite from the get go by any means but he was able to make the plays that needed to be made and better utilized the offensive personnel that Bill had collected for Drew.

 

[Rob0729]

The Rams had a top 5 defense in the league. I wouldn't put that against Brady.

Brady wasn't a game manager because it was a limitation on him, he was a top shelf QB who had the reins put on him from the coaches. We saw what happened when the reins came off.

Again, that is your opinion. The reigns didn't come off for Brady until 2004. So how can you say that Brady was he same QB in 2001 as 2004?

Brady wasn't ready for the NFL when he came into the league. I am sure even he'll admit that. He worked his ass off to become what he did. He would do so much extra. He got to where he is because he was the hardest worker in the room. Part of his offseason workouts were working with trainers to better his mechanics. Just look at Brady physically when he came into the league to even like 2004 or so. He was a completely different guy.

Hell, Peyton Manning who came into the league as the most NFL QB in the last 30 years wasn't elite his first season as a starter. Why would Brady?

And the Rams' defense was most likely not as good as their stats. They would get up to a two or three TD lead most games and turn the opposing offense one dimensional. But even against a top 5 defense, 10 points in 58 minutes of play especially when your defense has shut them down isn't all that special.

 

[Rob0729]

Yet from what I remember Bill didn't protect McGinest in the expansion draft for the Texans after that first super bowl. As for Drew, why pay him $100 million before that 2001 season if he wasn't a fit and was going to have him on a short leash? This is revisionist history. Bill tied himself to Drew and they were going to go down together had Bledsoe not gotten injured.

Brady was not elite from the get go by any means but he was able to make the plays that needed to be made and better utilized the offensive personnel that Bill had collected for Drew.

I don't think Belichick had a lot of say in Drew getting resigned. I think that was all Kraft. Just like Belichick reportedly didn't have a say about trading Brady over Garoppolo. But either way, it was clear that Bledsoe was not suited for the Patriots' offense. He sucked at it.

And just because let McGinest exposed doesn't mean that what I said isn't true. Maybe Belichick didn't trust McGinest's back to hold up. Who knows. It doesn't change the fact that McGinest was struggling when Belichick got here and the change of position gave him new life as a great player. If you don't want to give Belichick credit for it, fine. But it doesn't change that McGinest wasn't the guy he was in the first Patriots dynasty when Belichick got here in 2000.

Again, and you just argued what I have been arguing. Brady was good, but not elite. But showed flashes in his first season as a starter.

 

[amfootball]

Brady has been the best game manager in the history of the NFL. That is why he is the GOAT and also why he has had unprecedented longevity. Whatever the game calls for, he does. He did this from the moment he stepped on the field in 2001. We didn't need an aerial show back then. Teams could play smash mouth defense but when we needed the offense to put up to win vs Oakland, vs the Rams, he did it. And 20 years later, that is exactly what he did this post-season as well.

 

[Rob0729]

Brady has been the best game manager in the history of the NFL. That is why he is the GOAT and also why he has had unprecedented longevity. Whatever the game calls for, he does. He did this from the moment he stepped on the field in 2001. We didn't need an aerial show back then. Teams could play smash mouth defense but when we needed the offense to put up to win vs Oakland, vs the Rams, he did it. And 20 years later, that is exactly what he did this post-season as well.

Brady wasn't a game manager more than about the first three years of his career.

 

[upstater1]

His last 5-6 years of drafts, trades, and free agent signings.

I like what Belichick did up until 2019. Which coincides with a falloff. Prior to that he brought in Trent Brown, Rex Burkhead, Ladrian Waddle, Sony Michel. Strong case can be made that they don't win the 2018 Super Bowl without these additions. Not to mention paying Gilmore a huge contract.

These are all key moves in the Super Bowl win.

And I take Belichick at his word that the team went all out to win that Super bowl when it came to managing the cap. We saw a ton of our top FAs leave right after this (Flowers, Harmon, Ryan, Van Noy, Roberts, Trent Brown, etc.).

The 18 and 19 drafts were not good, but I'd say that in total, the players brought in through FA and the draft are precisely the players that helped us win that Super Bowl.

 

[203Pat]

I don't think Belichick had a lot of say in Drew getting resigned. I think that was all Kraft. Just like Belichick reportedly didn't have a say about trading Brady over Garoppolo. But either way, it was clear that Bledsoe was not suited for the Patriots' offense. He sucked at it.

And just because let McGinest exposed doesn't mean that what I said isn't true. Maybe Belichick didn't trust McGinest's back to hold up. Who knows. It doesn't change the fact that McGinest was struggling when Belichick got here and the change of position gave him new life as a great player. If you don't want to give Belichick credit for it, fine. But it doesn't change that McGinest wasn't the guy he was in the first Patriots dynasty when Belichick got here in 2000.

Again, and you just argued what I have been arguing. Brady was good, but not elite. But showed flashes in his first season as a starter.

This is my main issue with "Team Bill", Bill gets credit for Seymour, Light, Vrabel, Andruzzi, etc but Kraft gets the blame for re-signing a QB that didn't fit Bill's offense. There is the famous cook the meal, buy the groceries quote from Parcells and all the talk about how Kraft wanted to hire Bill even when he hired Carroll but we are supposed to believe that Kraft learned nothing from the way things soured with Parcells and he made the Bledsoe decision against Bill's wishes? I don't buy it.

As for McGinest I give Bill credit for getting him to be the player he was expected to be. In the same vein he was willing to let an important piece of the defense walk so in my mind it further speaks to Bill not always being able to completely evaluate his players early on which ties in with the Bledsoe contract.

 

[crawhammer]

This is so misleading. Belichick didn't have the best career in Cleveland, but he did turn around a bad team into an 11-5 playoff team only to have the owner totally sandbag him the following year by announcing the team was being moved out of Cleveland to Baltimore. I don't think Belichick was a great coach then, but he wasn't nearly as bad as his detractors made it

It's not misleading at all. Brady provided stability and greatness at the most important position in professional sports. Brady made it much easier for Belichick to managed the rest of team without having to worry about the quarterback position which is a huge advantage Belichick and the Patriots organization had over most other franchises.

Just reflect on the rest of the AFC East teams throughout Brady's time in New England... they were a collective mess and revolving door at the quarterback position which had them completely doomed for the majority of 20 years while Brady was building an unprecedented hall of fame career. If Buffalo can hold onto Josh Allen and continue to surround him with enough talent as they did last season then the Patriots, especially with no clear answer at quarterback, are going to be playing for second place at best. Clip it, I guarantee the Patriots finish beneath the Bills for every season moving forward where Josh Allen is healthy and Belichick is signing mid-to-lower tier quarterbacks.

It's pretty simple, and typical, a head coach generally is not going to be success unless he has an upper-tier franchise-type quarterback. Belichick is no exception... when he had the GOAT he looked great. When he had average quarterbacks, which is all he ever had otherwise at best, he looked bad.

I'll back it up with more data if you want?... TD:INT ratio, TD%, INT%, QBR, point per game, yards per game, first downs, time of possession, overcoming deficits, 4th quarter comebacks, game-winning drives... all MUCH better when Belichick had Brady as his quarterback.

You watch, Bruce Arians is going to be a first ballot hall of fame head coach by the time Brady retires. I'm dead serious.

 

[amfootball]

Brady wasn't a game manager more than about the first three years of his career.

You are misunderstanding what a game manager is. I assume you think it is a QB that just does enough to not lose the game and plays to the strength of his defense. That is NOT a game manager. A game manager manages the entire game to ensure victory. Whether that requires putting up 30+ points in a shoot out or methodically driving the field to ensure a 21-17 victory. Brady always understands what he needs to do to ensure the team wins the game. He is the best down and distance manager of all time. That his why he has the most wins by a landslide both in the regular season and the post-season. It is not about stats or flash. It is about doing what is necessary to win.

 

[Nehalem]

I don't think he was elite from day one. He was a game manager his first few years.

And yes, it was night and day between him and Bledsoe, but that had a lot to do with Bledsoe. Bledsoe sucked in the Patriots' offense. He looked almost as bad as Cam Newton at times. It was painful to watch him throw a screen pass to Troy Brown and watch it hit Brown in the ankles every time.

Brady was good when he became a starter. He wasn't elite yet. He wasn't the GOAT. He showed flashes of greatness like the final drive in the Super Bowl, but he showed that he still had a ways to go like the fact the Pats offense only scored 10 points in the Super Bowl prior to that last drive.

In 2002, his 2nd year as a starter

28TDs (1st)
601 attempts (3rd)
3764 yards (6th)

I think part of the problems is that NFL has skewed so much towards passing since the beginning of Brady's career that his early seasons looks like a game manager by comparison.

 

[Rob0729]

This is my main issue with "Team Bill", Bill gets credit for Seymour, Light, Vrabel, Andruzzi, etc but Kraft gets the blame for re-signing a QB that didn't fit Bill's offense. There is the famous cook the meal, buy the groceries quote from Parcells and all the talk about how Kraft wanted to hire Bill even when he hired Carroll but we are supposed to believe that Kraft learned nothing from the way things soured with Parcells and he made the Bledsoe decision against Bill's wishes? I don't buy it.

As for McGinest I give Bill credit for getting him to be the player he was expected to be. In the same vein he was willing to let an important piece of the defense walk so in my mind it further speaks to Bill not always being able to completely evaluate his players early on which ties in with the Bledsoe contract.

Whether Belichick wanted Bledsoe and signed him or not or he was going to give him a short leash is irrelevant. Bledsoe just didn't fit the system. Blame Belichick the GM. Fine. But my point is that the night and day change of the team wasn't because Brady was elite. It had a lot to do with Bledsoe being a bad fit for the system.

I'm not Team Anyone. I am just not letting people turn Belichick just into another coach that was just lucky for having Brady otherwise he would have just been a two time loser. That's not what happened.

If anything I am right down the middle guy. I have said repeatedly that Belichick deserves more credit for the first two or three Super Bowls and Brady deserves more of the credit for the last three.

 

[Rob0729]

You are misunderstanding what a game manager is. I assume you think it is a QB that just does enough to not lose the game and plays to the strength of his defense. That is NOT a game manager. A game manager manages the entire game to ensure victory. Whether that requires putting up 30+ points in a shoot out or methodically driving the field to ensure a 21-17 victory. Brady always understands what he needs to do to ensure the team wins the game. He is the best down and distance manager of all time. That his why he has the most wins by a landslide both in the regular season and the post-season. It is not about stats or flash. It is about doing what is necessary to win.

A game manager by NFL definition is QB who scores enough points to win but more importantly doesn't do anything to lose. If you want to use it in a different way that is perfectly fine and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

[amfootball]

A game manager by NFL definition is QB who scores enough points to win but more importantly doesn't do anything to lose. If you want to use it in a different way that is perfectly fine and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I like that definition too. I just got into more specifics of how that looks. The perfect case point is the 2018 post-season. Brady outduels Mahomes and then does not force anything vs the Rams in the SB and then in the 4th delivers the knock out drive. That has pretty much been his career the whole way through. He understands how his defense is playing vs the other Qb and he manages the game accordingly.

 

[Rob0729]

In 2002, his 2nd year as a starter

28TDs (1st)
601 attempts (3rd)
3764 yards (6th)

I think part of the problems is that NFL has skewed so much towards passing since the beginning of Brady's career that his early seasons looks like a game manager by comparison.

That's misleading though because the Pats didn't running game. That were the days when people would say the Pats' vertical passing game was their running game. The Pats were 28th in rushing yards, 27th in YPA, and 28th in rushing TDs.

 

[203Pat]

I like what Belichick did up until 2019. Which coincides with a falloff. Prior to that he brought in Trent Brown, Rex Burkhead, Ladrian Waddle, Sony Michel. Strong case can be made that they don't win the 2018 Super Bowl without these additions. Not to mention paying Gilmore a huge contract.

These are all key moves in the Super Bowl win.

And I take Belichick at his word that the team went all out to win that Super bowl when it came to managing the cap. We saw a ton of our top FAs leave right after this (Flowers, Harmon, Ryan, Van Noy, Roberts, Trent Brown, etc.).

The 18 and 19 drafts were not good, but I'd say that in total, the players brought in through FA and the draft are precisely the players that helped us win that Super Bowl.

I agree that the Van Noy, and Trent Brown trades were home runs on the surface. They were very good players that Bill bought low on but they were also part of the snowballing of the poor drafts that caught up to us the last couple years. Brown was traded for because draft picks like Fleming and Garcia weren't capable for taking over at LT. Van Noy was brought in because Geneo Grissom wasn't able to replace Collins. That will happen here and there and in a vacuum it's not a huge deal. The issue was that it wasn't just here and there we started getting next to nothing out of large portions of our draft classes. I have talked on this before but how many resources have been used to find a receiver in the last couple years? To fill one receiver spot we have used a first round pick (Harry), a second round pick (trade for Sanu), and spent $9 million dollars for one game as well as a $4.5 million dollar dead cap hit this year (AB). That is a first and a second round pick, $10+ million, and three players for almost no production.

Bill has made some good personnel moves in the last few years but he has also made some very bad ones and the bad ones seem to have come in bunches. Add that to the bad drafting and that is how we get to Cam Newton attempting to throw bowling balls to UDFA's.

 

[venecol]

I'll tell you what. I make a bet with you. You find ten times I mentioned the 2008 season outside of this thread in the last two years and I will leave the board forever. If you can't, you leave. Wanna bet? Hell, I bet you can't find five. I bring up the 2008 season all that much. I bring up the 2006 far more and that I am giving Brady credit for.

Wanna bet?

Relax Roberta, pretty sure that was a jk and it was funny.