Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[XLIX]

Not sure where you are getting these stats from. Hostetler passed for an average of 165 yards and ran for 35 yards in the 5 games he started after taking over for Simms. Team averaged about 20 points a game when he started. The Giants smoked the Bears in the divisional round 31-3 when JH threw for 112 yards then squeaked by the 49ers 15-13 when he threw for 176 yards. He certainly played fine and did not make mistakes after taking over for Simms butt he did not carry the Giants.

When talking about a players’ stats, one generally maintains the regular season. I did not include the playoffs in his YPG.

This will be my last post on the matter. As much as I’ve enjoyed talking football history, I honestly can’t remember how a Patriots message board got sidetracked on a Simms v. Hostetler debate from 30 years ago.

 

[XLIX]

How can the results of one season spent apart indicate which of two individuals contributed the most to their incredibly successful 20 year collaboration? Would anyone argue that George Harrison carried Lennon and McCartney through the Beatle years because “All things must pass “was a more successful album than John and Paul’s initial solo albums?

Except if Lennon/McCartney were together for 6 seasons before Harrison came along, and had zero success in those 6 seasons, but instantly became a smash hit once Harrison arrived, then there just might have been something to that theory.

 

[crawhammer]

Brady looks as great as ever; no drop-off in his play whatsoever. His accuracy is excellent at all levels. He could have thrown for 700 yards against Detroit had Arians not pulled him at the half. You know Brady didn't want to come out of the game. With 4 TD passes next weekend he'll finish with 40 which would be second most of his career.

Belichick totally blew it with Brady. Complete miscalculation of how long Brady could perform at an elite level. With Brady coming out of an MVP season, Belichick had the offense trending conservative, run first, play action, like he was protecting a declining limited quarterback. Belichick also failed to surround Brady with enough (or any) talent which further limited the offense...no adequate replacement for Gronk, whiffed as usual on a WR draft pick, let guys like Amendola leave via free agency. Brady got sick of Belichick treating him like Trent Dilfer. Now Brady is making Belichick look like a total fool. That's how I see it. It's the growing narrative nationally. Only blind-faith Belichick supporters choose to see it otherwise.

 

[sb1]

We all know about Belichick the GM but it was probably not the best season for Belichick the coach either. Some questionable decisions like in the Denver game comes to mind and the onside kick against Buffalo. I think he just needs to stop trying to outsmart everyone, most of the time it doesn’t work very well.

Still glad he’s our coach though, arguably the greatest of all time.

I doubt this team wins more than 1 game in 2020 with a lesser coach. Maybe not even 1. Bill the GM has work to do to give the coach some help. Brady himself said it - great players need coaches and great coaches need players.

 

[Ring 6]

5 field goals is better than 1 field goal, and 1 field goal was all the Giants managed to score against the same team when Simms was QB.

If you don’t want to discuss it, feel free to take another L and go away gracefully. But you’re just not capable of doing that. Even when you promise you “are done” you just can’t help yourself but to respond. It’s a sickness you have.

Simms played better all year, the team scored more points with Simms. I’ll compare Simms losing to a great 9er team to hostetler almost losing to the 1-15 tommy hodson led patriots.

There is no point in discussing it because your argument is ignorant. It’s like arguing with someone who think 1+1=3.
Of course you stay true to form, realize that people are laughing at your opinion and resort to your staple, a personal attack. That’s where you just earned the L. Stay classy, lol.

 

[Ring 6]

Brady looks as great as ever; no drop-off in his play whatsoever. His accuracy is excellent at all levels. He could have thrown for 700 yards against Detroit had Arians not pulled him at the half. You know Brady didn't want to come out of the game. With 4 TD passes next weekend he'll finish with 40 which would be second most of his career.

Belichick totally blew it with Brady. Complete miscalculation of how long Brady could perform at an elite level. With Brady coming out of an MVP season, Belichick had the offense trending conservative, run first, play action, like he was protecting a declining limited quarterback. Belichick also failed to surround Brady with enough (or any) talent which further limited the offense...no adequate replacement for Gronk, whiffed as usual on a WR draft pick, let guys like Amendola leave via free agency. Brady got sick of Belichick treating him like Trent Dilfer. Now Brady is making Belichick look like a total fool. That's how I see it. It's the growing narrative nationally. Only blind-faith Belichick supporters choose to see it otherwise.

The only difference between Brady this year and Brady last year was the arm injury.
Half way through, 3/4 of the way through, the numbers were very similar but Brady fell apart over the second half of the season because he was injured (and playing in the northeast).
A GOAT QB declines die to injury. The risk of injury is greater with every year of age. Brady was completely ineffective the second half of last year.

 

[XLIX]

Brady looks as great as ever; no drop-off in his play whatsoever. His accuracy is excellent at all levels. He could have thrown for 700 yards against Detroit had Arians not pulled him at the half. You know Brady didn't want to come out of the game. With 4 TD passes next weekend he'll finish with 40 which would be second most of his career.

Belichick totally blew it with Brady. Complete miscalculation of how long Brady could perform at an elite level. With Brady coming out of an MVP season, Belichick had the offense trending conservative, run first, play action, like he was protecting a declining limited quarterback. Belichick also failed to surround Brady with enough (or any) talent which further limited the offense...no adequate replacement for Gronk, whiffed as usual on a WR draft pick, let guys like Amendola leave via free agency. Brady got sick of Belichick treating him like Trent Dilfer. Now Brady is making Belichick look like a total fool. That's how I see it. It's the growing narrative nationally. Only blind-faith Belichick supporters choose to see it otherwise.

Belichick did the same old "better to let a guy go a season or two too early than a season of two too late" maneuver he has been doing for 20 years. The problem is that it is way different to do it with an aging linebacker or tackle than it is to do it with a franchise quarterback, which happens to be the most important position in sports.

The most galling thing is the complete lack of plan for how to move forward. I mean, what was the plan when the decision was made? Stidham? Yeesh. He lucked into Newton at cheap dollars - although one could argued whether it was good luck or bad luck - but don't tell me when Brady left, Belichick was thinking he'd get Cam at $1 million.

 

[carmelo15]

Belichick missed the playoffs in 7 of the 8 years he coached with Brady.

He missed the playoffs 1 year out of the 18 years with Brady, including 17 straight years when he played.

Missed the playoffs in all 3 years without Brady in NE, with two losing seasons.

The last time the Pats missed the playoffs, was in 2008 when Brady didn’t play. The last time the Bucs made the playoffs was in 2007. Brady switches teams, the Pats miss the playoffs, the Bucs make it.

Belichick’s shtick would have never worked without the franchise player being a dutiful soldier. Belichick would have looked like a fool like Patricia did, when arrogance isn’t coupled with winning. At this point, the evidence is overwhelming that Brady’s quality, leadership and aura were far more important than Belichick.

When the Pats were down 28-3 to Atlanta, the players still believed. Why? Because “We have Tom Brady”. Even Atlanta’s player were still weary about the outcome ”...it’s Tom Brady though”.

It’s a players game and the Pats had the greatest of them all for 20 years.

Atlanta players were like “BB is the coach they’re still in it” hahaha

 

[Biffins]

There was nothing Cam did vs Seattle that Brady was going to do better. Cam gave Edelman one of his all time best games. It was a 50/50 end of game situation and we already saw Brady lose a very similar game vs Seattle on the goal line several years ago. Cam wasn't on the field Chiefs. The 49'ers game and Rams game were blowouts and it was going to be hard for anyteam to comeback with the talent on the team. Miami is a team Brady always struggles with and he lost to a worse Miami team last year.

So we are down to the Texans, Broncos and Bills game. Those are the only games it's reasonable to assume there would be a very different outcome as they were close and winnable and Brady doesn't have a history of struggling against them.... actually that's not true, he struggles alot vs Denver. Close game, but we saw Brady lose slogfests last year with this offense. So it's more of a toss up than anything else. The Bills game is hard to say because Cam was the reason we were in that final drive.

Really the Texans is the only game I feel strongly Brady would have one. I'll spot you the Denver game to even though it wouldn't shock me to see him lose that.

This is a very bad team. I think you are highly overestimating how bad it is.

That’s Brady seems to win those 50-50 situations like 80% of the time. Some players are just clutch. Others wilt. E.g. Even a player as great as Peyton Manning never managed to produce his best football in the postseason (besides that frickin 2006 AFC Championship...... god damn 4 and 2, Faulk had it).

 

[Biffins]

Brady looks as great as ever; no drop-off in his play whatsoever. His accuracy is excellent at all levels. He could have thrown for 700 yards against Detroit had Arians not pulled him at the half. You know Brady didn't want to come out of the game. With 4 TD passes next weekend he'll finish with 40 which would be second most of his career.

Belichick totally blew it with Brady. Complete miscalculation of how long Brady could perform at an elite level. With Brady coming out of an MVP season, Belichick had the offense trending conservative, run first, play action, like he was protecting a declining limited quarterback. Belichick also failed to surround Brady with enough (or any) talent which further limited the offense...no adequate replacement for Gronk, whiffed as usual on a WR draft pick, let guys like Amendola leave via free agency. Brady got sick of Belichick treating him like Trent Dilfer. Now Brady is making Belichick look like a total fool. That's how I see it. It's the growing narrative nationally. Only blind-faith Belichick supporters choose to see it otherwise.

This man speaks the truth. This season has been Brady’s vindication and BB’s folly.

And if Brady turned out to be having a noodle arm in Tampa Bay while BB was grinding out a winning season and wild card birth while rebuilding, it would have been the opposite.

Brady could still play at an elite level. At $25m he’s very good value for the Bucs. He already is the best QB ever to play for the Bucs and holds a lot of single season records. And they are a dangerous team in the playoffs.

oh and Brady got Brown. Owners appeased him. Brown is not some crazy big part of the gameplan or team but Brady is happy and team is happy. Brady just wants to frickin win!!

 

[Lagaffe_07]

The last 3-4 years everyone was saying in the media that Bill will not treat the GOAT Brady differently than the other 53 players. Which he did in the end but he has no problem treating Cam differently than the other 53 players this year. Because if any 52 players show this much ineptitude they will be benched and Bill will not make excuses for them in press conferences like he did with Cam. That pisses me off because it shows that the way he treated Brady was just drived by ego because if Bill really cared about what best for the team at the end he would have accommodated Brady.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Belichick missed the playoffs in 7 of the 8 years he coached with Brady.

He missed the playoffs 1 year out of the 18 years with Brady, including 17 straight years when he played.

Missed the playoffs in all 3 years without Brady in NE, with two losing seasons.

The last time the Pats missed the playoffs, was in 2008 when Brady didn’t play. The last time the Bucs made the playoffs was in 2007. Brady switches teams, the Pats miss the playoffs, the Bucs make it.

I knew what you meant with the first sentence, but these are indisputable facts.

Belichick’s shtick would have never worked without the franchise player being a dutiful soldier. Belichick would have looked like a fool like Patricia did, when arrogance isn’t coupled with winning. At this point, the evidence is overwhelming that Brady’s quality, leadership and aura were far more important than Belichick.

His schtick was tolerated because the media is not like it is today. Unless you lived in Boston in the early 2000's, you didn't get to see too much of his schtick unless you watched SportsCenter. It won't work today if you're not winning as you can't hide from the media anymore. They are everywhere and can publish an article thousands of miles away. They will run you out of town if you're not winning and talking and that's why we've seen Bill talk so much this season. Brady was BB's ultimate buffer to the media.

When the Pats were down 28-3 to Atlanta, the players still believed. Why? Because “We have Tom Brady”. Even Atlanta’s player were still weary about the outcome ”...it’s Tom Brady though”.

The end of the 2014 Super Bowl was a massive turning point for the Franchise. Do you remember Brady's reaction on the sideline when the Seahawks were driving and was victim to another miracle catch? After 10 years going on a drought, Brady looked defeated and mentioned something along the lines of "I can't believe it's happening again". Had they lost that game, there's no comeback against the Falcons and that may have been Brady's last year.

 

[SVN]

Oh I agree with this take too. He was gone. Nothing was changing his mind.

I wasn't all that upset when he left because I knew it or strongly suspected it for well over a year.

Brady did what was best for him and it's bill job to figure out our path forward. I just think if push comes to shove, even had bad this team is brady and bill would of snuck into the playoffs.

Very low bar though and I'm fine that the bandaid was torn off.

I really dont know about the playoffs . If brady was open to playing with meyers and harry and byrd and put his mind to it then yes. With harris running , and threat of brady passing it wouldve been quite good. But i think brady wouldve been more frustrated at the passing game without jules and bunch of young guys to throw to and it wouldve made it worse with him getting mad on the sidelines and with this defense without a front 4 .
Only reason he couldve stayed is for sentimental value of finishing here but that was never happening.

 

[SVN]

Bill the GM is not helping Bill the coach’s legacy here. I think it’s great for the Pats that Brady is successful there because you know Bill is watching and will respond to it. Hopefully with a major talent injection instead of bringing in projects and rejects here to coach up. Talent matters.

This whole talk about talent etc is valid. Tom Curran is constantly talking about this everyday about bad drafts and busts. But all it takes is the QB position to be hit. Everything elevates from there. Swap Cam with Justin Herbert with the same rosters. It would look up very quickly. Very easy to build team around your QB once you have him. Pats are now like the rest of the nfl mostly,trying to find that person. Every team has had it.
Regarding not planning a successor by BB, not an easy position to hit on. They have been trying for years from the ryan mallet days.

 

[SVN]

I knew what you meant with the first sentence, but these are indisputable facts.

His schtick was tolerated because the media is not like it is today. Unless you lived in Boston in the early 2000's, you didn't get to see too much of his schtick unless you watched SportsCenter. It won't work today if you're not winning as you can't hide from the media anymore. They are everywhere and can publish an article thousands of miles away. They will run you out of town if you're not winning and talking and that's why we've seen Bill talk so much this season. Brady was BB's ultimate buffer to the media.

The end of the 2014 Super Bowl was a massive turning point for the Franchise. Do you remember Brady's reaction on the sideline when the Seahawks were driving and was victim to another miracle catch? After 10 years going on a drought, Brady looked defeated and mentioned something along the lines of "I can't believe it's happening again". Had they lost that game, there's no comeback against the Falcons and that may have been Brady's last year.

I understand brady is a major part of the pats success. But we make it seem like we would be okay with any coach with brady ? Maybe if the pats dont win the SB in the next 2 yrs, we should fire BB i guess ?
Much of the early SB wins were a team effort with a great defense and coaching. Much of the later wins were with brady. Its not all one person.

 

[amfootball]

I understand brady is a major part of the pats success. But we make it seem like we would be okay with any coach with brady ? Maybe if the pats dont win the SB in the next 2 yrs, we should fire BB i guess ?
Much of the early SB wins were a team effort with a great defense and coaching. Much of the later wins were with brady. Its not all one person.

We need a GM. Fire Bill the GM and keep Bill the HC.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

We need a GM. Fire Bill the GM and keep Bill the HC.

Unfortunately it is not possible. You have Bill for both or you don’t have him at all.

 

[skinnydog]

The only difference between Brady this year and Brady last year was the arm injury.
Half way through, 3/4 of the way through, the numbers were very similar but Brady fell apart over the second half of the season because he was injured (and playing in the northeast).
A GOAT QB declines die to injury. The risk of injury is greater with every year of age. Brady was completely ineffective the second half of last year.

Not really true. Brady had a really good to solid game against Buffalo in the second to last game of the year. QB rating of 111. He looked really good, but it did not carry over to the next game or the playoff game.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Fact is, Brady had left the building. We have to move forward.

the mission has to be finding the next great qb to replace him.

unfortunately bb screwed up and failed to go zero and 16 so we could get Lawrence.

now is time for bb to prove his worth and find someone else.

 

[crawhammer]

I doubt this team wins more than 1 game in 2020 with a lesser coach. Maybe not even 1.

Come on, you said yourself Belichick the coach has had a down year. They play the Jets twice so that's two layups. Their run defense has been putrid this season; that's not the sign of a well-coached team. Too many games when they failed to scheme up a defense to stop the run when they knew it coming. They lost three consecutive games this season when the opposing quarterbacks combined for 0 TD's and 5 INT's... that's nearly impossible.