Can we finally stop pretending that Cam is good?

[1960Pats]

There is a possibility cam newton may end the season with 5 passing touchdowns. That has to be a record worst for a starting QB who will end up playing 15 games right?

If 2020 Cant Newton beats or ties Steve Grogan's TD rushing record from 1976 it will be downright sinful. That alone has me hoping he never sees the endzone the rest of the year. He doesn't deserve that record.

 

[mgteich]

There has been lots of pretending going on this season. The fanbase and Belichick are used to winning, so such a shocking decline makes many of us cling to delusions. One delusion is that Cam is going to become a solid quarterback or there is something there with Stidham. Another is that this roster is headed in a positive direction with the current talent. And finally, there is the delusion that free agents can solve our problems so let's invest years of cap money on "sure things."

Yes, we have a few good pieces. But most of the roster is past its prime and overpriced free agents will just extend a slow decline. There is no magical solution other than being ruthless with trimming the roster and loading up on picks. If we can go young and cheap, the turnaround will be much quicker than sliding into a rut where we make the playoffs some seasons but can't compete for championships against top clubs.

We're in a conference with Mahomes. Even with Brady, Mahomes is a beast that would be difficult to overcome. So, if our goal is winning a title rather than looking pretty solid every season, we need to swing for the fences through drafts rather than settle on a JAG at quarterback.

MY MAKE BELIEVE
We were a player or two away from being in the playoffs: a receiver, a DT, TE and a LB. This is with the mediocre Cam at QB. I suppose that we MIGHT have spent $20M a year (and spread it out) for one of the vets available. But, less could have spent acquiring DL help, and perhaps a WR.

 

[mgteich]

I think that is likely that Belichick will try to re-sign Cam for a couple of years. It will be difficult for him to justify (to himself) that it worth $10M or $15M more for someone else, while at the same time drafting his future QB. Alternatively, he could draft a QB or 2 in 2021 and then again in 2022.

 

[captain stone]

You're wrong on many levels.
1 -The game you're talking about was the last game of the year against Miami. I remember because I was arguing with Fin fans who were making the same bogus claim in order to crap on Belichick.
2 -Cassell's missed pass was wide by a hair and not into the stands. If he had that level of accuracy to miss he'd be in the HOF.
3 -A win in that game would have left the Pats tied with the Steelers at 11-5. With a win over the Steelers during the season the Pats would have moved ahead of them in the seeding.
4 -Cincy, who the Pats never played that year, won the AFCN and ended up playing Pitt at home in the playoff game where Carson Palmer hit a bomb on his first pass and was quickly taken out of the game (and a promising career) on a cheap shot to his knee by the Steelers. It was the same thing they tried to do to Brady in 2001.
5 - There was also the fact that the Pats owned the Steelers and would not have tried to avoid them. If anything they would have tried to avoid their real nemesis, the Broncos, who the Pats lost to in the 2nd round.
6 - Anyone who thinks that Belichick would ever lose a game on purpose isn't paying attention.

At the time, both Cinci & NE preferred the #4 seed to the #3 seed because both thought - correctly - that the Jags would be the easier 1st-round opponent than the streaking Squealers...And if the Pats didn't make one bone-headed feckup after another in Denver vs Jake the Fake Plummer - aided post-facto each time by the criminally incompetent zebras - they would've been hosting the AFCCG...IOW, Bill's plan was sound, but the execution of it wasn't.

 

[Ring 6]

Problem is we're now used to the guy who had 'it' and more. Anything by comparison was going to be turd, jus so happens Cam is average even without the comparison.

Compared to a below average QB who is ready to be benched cam stinks.
he wouldnt be average among all nfl backups

 

[Ring 6]

I think that is likely that Belichick will try to re-sign Cam for a couple of years. It will be difficult for him to justify (to himself) that it worth $10M or $15M more for someone else, while at the same time drafting his future QB. Alternatively, he could draft a QB or 2 in 2021 and then again in 2022.

Why in the world would belichick want Newton back? I mean he was close to if not the worst starting qb in the nfl. What did he do that would make bb want to repeat the same mistake and sign him again?
And in what universe would he take a guy he signed for the vet minimum who proved to not even be worth that and give him
10-15 million when no other team will want him at all AGAIN?? Who took over your computer and posted this?

 

[cupofjoe1962]

If you can explain to me how a good receiver makes up for a 10 yard pass bouncing after 5 yards then I would listen.

Our TEs and WRs would not be the players we know if they were playing with mahomes.

We have the worst wide receiver & tight end players in the NFL.

Worse than any other team.
The drop off from the Chiefs WR & TE to the Patriots WR & TE is dramatic.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

You aren't totally wrong, but the eye test tells me Cam newton has poor throwing mechanics and has poor pocket presence

Maybe, but that doesn’t change the fact the Patriots have the worst WR’s & TE’s in the NFL.

 

[crawhammer]

Newton can't throw a football anymore. He never was consistently accurate. He looks completely shot, physically and mentally. He took a friggin sack on a fourth down play to end a game... inexcusable. It's pointless to continue on with this loser. Stidham probably sucks but damn he can't be worse than Newton.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Clearly newton has set the bar really really low!

yet bb has not seen enough of stidham in practice to start stidham in place of a turd like newton!

I think we let newton end this season as the starter and regroup on what we do at the qb position next season!

 

[crawhammer]

Belichick won't start Stidham because if he happens to play well then he'll really look like a boob for sticking with Newton up to the point of postseason elimination.

Belichick really f'd up the quarterback position starting with miscalculating on how long Brady would remain elite. He traded Garoppolo for below market value. He stripped away or failed to obtain quality personnel around Brady who he also treated like a schmuck with the BS surrounding his contract. After pushing Brady out of town, he waited around for the very last QB standing who unsurprisingly is complete toast.

Why do anything that makes any sense now? Like seeing what you may have in a younger QB in a couple of meaningless games. Nope. Stick with the bum who clearly has no NFL future ahead of him.

 

[mgteich]

The 2021 quarterback position is a 3 step process. I thought that we were in this position last year, Bill decided otherwise. As far as cap money, we could have extended or restructured Gilmore's contract. I suspect that COVID played into the decision.

1) Sign a veteran, who could be Cam, but is more likely someone else. We are unconstrained by cap, other than Bill's willingness to sign a particular deal. The first year cost needn't be more than $10M no matter how much Bill pays.

2) draft a QB or 2. If the free agent is perceived to be good enough, it would give Bill the freedom not to feel forced to sign a 1st rounder. I certainly see a QB in the first three rounds, and perhaps another late (or an UDFA).

3) camp competition, most likely for the backup positions

============
Stidham can stay, or not. Even if we, as posters, think that he has little future, he can be the 4th QB in camp; he's cheap. At "best", he might compete for any of the QB positions.

 

[lancerman]

Belichick won't start Stidham because if he happens to play well then he'll really look like a boob for sticking with Newton up to the point of postseason elimination.

Belichick really f'd up the quarterback position starting with miscalculating on how long Brady would remain elite. He traded Garoppolo for below market value. He stripped away or failed to obtain quality personnel around Brady who he also treated like a schmuck with the BS surrounding his contract. After pushing Brady out of town, he waited around for the very last QB standing who unsurprisingly is complete toast.

Why do anything that makes any sense now? Like seeing what you may have in a younger QB in a couple of meaningless games. Nope. Stick with the bum who clearly has no NFL future ahead of him.

There was no scenario on the planet where Belichick trades Brady in the midst of an MVP season when he just won the two biggest SB comebacks of all time over the past 3 seasons. It would have been the biggest controversy in the sport. Idk how this is hard to understand but the only way he was going to trade Jimmy for more was if he did it pre 2017 and they were trying to keep him. The smart move was always to see what happened with Brady in 2017 and Brady played well. If he sucked, you wanted Jimmy in your back pocket. If he played well, then you could see what you needed to do to deal Jimmy. But for a team it made no sense unless you wer 100% positiveit was time to move on (it wasn't and the team that got Jimmy ended up signing him for a huge amount on a 5 game sample size). Let's just call it what it is, Jimmy G was not as good as Brady then, the truth of the matter is it's 2020 and he really isn't making the case he is as good as Brady now plus he is far more injury prone. It was not a no brainer and it was more prudent to forego draft capital and put off making a decision until you absolutely had to so that you could make the most informed decision possible.

Brady didn't stay because as many noted, we simply did not have much cap room due to several years of chasing rings and it ultimately led to a situation where if we signed Brady we would need to cut people and if we didn't we still were going to struggle to add pieces to the team. At 42 and with Brady now coming off two consecutive not so great seasons, it was alot easier to move on and it was easier for him to go some place where he could finish up and be supported. If Brady stayed you would have the same team minus whoever Bill needed to cut to make the mobey work.

Also the idea that Bill doesn't know what he has in Stidham after two years is laughable.

 

[Tony2046]

Belichick won't start Stidham because if he happens to play well then he'll really look like a boob for sticking with Newton up to the point of postseason elimination.

Belichick really f'd up the quarterback position starting with miscalculating on how long Brady would remain elite. He traded Garoppolo for below market value. He stripped away or failed to obtain quality personnel around Brady who he also treated like a schmuck with the BS surrounding his contract. After pushing Brady out of town, he waited around for the very last QB standing who unsurprisingly is complete toast.

Why do anything that makes any sense now? Like seeing what you may have in a younger QB in a couple of meaningless games. Nope. Stick with the bum who clearly has no NFL future ahead of him.

What's the difference between Ian continuing to let you post and BB continuing to start Cam? None.

 

[1960Pats]

We have the worst wide receiver & tight end players in the NFL.

Worse than any other team.
The drop off from the Chiefs WR & TE to the Patriots WR & TE is dramatic.

We had the worst WRs and TEs last year along with crippling injuries to the OL and FB positions. That team went 12-4 and was a bogus call away from a win vs KC and a possible #1 seed.

 

[RIpats88]

Maybe, but that doesn’t change the fact the Patriots have the worst WR’s & TE’s in the NFL.

Okay, but we had trash out there last year as well and went 12-4.

Cam newton has 5 passing TD's. if we give him all the weapons in the world what is his ceiling? 10TDs? 15TDs? still horrible

 

[lancerman]

Okay, but we had trash out there last year as well and went 12-4.

Cam newton has 5 passing TD's. if we give him all the weapons in the world what is his ceiling? 10TDs? 15TDs? still horrible

We started the year with a healthy Edelman, Gordon, had AB for a game, and Dorsett. We also got our first 8 wins agains

1. An 8-8 Steelers team which was one of the few non winning Steelers teams of the last 20 years
2. A 5-11 Miami team who were so bad early on that players were talking to their agents about getting off the team.
3. A 7-9 Jets squad
4. A 10-6 Buffalo team
5. A 3-13 disaster in Washington
6. A 4-12 Giants
7. The Jets again
8. The 6-10 Browns

The Bills and Eagles (9-7) were the only winning teams we actually beat that year and it was considered one of if not the easiest schedule in the league.

Meanwhile aside from the Bills we lost to every playoff team we played.

We have a much harder schedule this year. We lost to Miami who is contending for a playoff spot, Seattle who is probably going to win their division, The Bills who are one of the top 2-3 teams in the AFC, and the Rams who are fighting for a playoff spot and only aren't leading because of Seattle, and the Chiefs who might go 15-1 and Cam did not play in that game. San Fran, Denver, and Houston (who have been better since they dumped BoB). But we also split with Miami,

We actually have as many wins against winnings teams this year (Miami first time, Ravens, Cardinals) as we did last year (hell even the Raiders might push us over that by the end and we still have the Bills game). The difference is we just played more winning teams this year compared to last year.

Then our defense was significantly better and didn't lose some of the pieces they did.

So the 2019 team had a lot more going for it interms of offensive and defensive talent and all things considered played a pretty inferior schedule. This year we have 9 games against winning teams and 1 game against the .500 Raiders, that year we had 10 games against .500 or under teams. So it was nearly a flip.

And despite all that we basically limped into the playoffs for the first team we played to knock off.

 

[RIpats88]

We started the year with a healthy Edelman, Gordon, had AB for a game, and Dorsett. We also got our first 8 wins agains

1. An 8-8 Steelers team which was one of the few non winning Steelers teams of the last 20 years
2. A 5-11 Miami team who were so bad early on that players were talking to their agents about getting off the team.
3. A 7-9 Jets squad
4. A 10-6 Buffalo team
5. A 3-13 disaster in Washington
6. A 4-12 Giants
7. The Jets again
8. The 6-10 Browns

The Bills and Eagles (9-7) were the only winning teams we actually beat that year and it was considered one of if not the easiest schedule in the league.

Meanwhile aside from the Bills we lost to every playoff team we played.

We have a much harder schedule this year. We lost to Miami who is contending for a playoff spot, Seattle who is probably going to win their division, The Bills who are one of the top 2-3 teams in the AFC, and the Rams who are fighting for a playoff spot and only aren't leading because of Seattle, and the Chiefs who might go 15-1 and Cam did not play in that game. San Fran, Denver, and Houston (who have been better since they dumped BoB). But we also split with Miami,

We actually have as many wins against winnings teams this year (Miami first time, Ravens, Cardinals) as we did last year (hell even the Raiders might push us over that by the end and we still have the Bills game). The difference is we just played more winning teams this year compared to last year.

Then our defense was significantly better and didn't lose some of the pieces they did.

So the 2019 team had a lot more going for it interms of offensive and defensive talent and all things considered played a pretty inferior schedule. This year we have 9 games against winning teams and 1 game against the .500 Raiders, that year we had 10 games against .500 or under teams. So it was nearly a flip.

And despite all that we basically limped into the playoffs for the first team we played to knock off.

I'm not arguing our weapons aren't bad. But 5 passing tds over 13 games is just abysmal.

Even gardner minshew has 15 tds. I just don't know if we upgraded the offense that cam newton would go to a 25 or even 20 td guy

 

[amfootball]

I'm not arguing our weapons aren't bad. But 5 passing tds over 13 games is just abysmal.

Even gardner minshew has 15 tds. I just don't know if we upgraded the offense that cam newton would go to a 25 or even 20 td guy

The worst part about keeping Newton is he will stunt the growth of our skill guys. We have no idea what we have in our rookie TEs because he would not throw to them. Harry could have something but again we really don't know. James White has been invisible which is tragic for him given he is a FA this year.

 

[crawhammer]

There was no scenario on the planet where Belichick trades Brady in the midst of an MVP season when he just won the two biggest SB comebacks of all time over the past 3 seasons. It would have been the biggest controversy in the sport. Idk how this is hard to understand but the only way he was going to trade Jimmy for more was if he did it pre 2017 and they were trying to keep him. The smart move was always to see what happened with Brady in 2017 and Brady played well. If he sucked, you wanted Jimmy in your back pocket. If he played well, then you could see what you needed to do to deal Jimmy. But for a team it made no sense unless you wer 100% positiveit was time to move on (it wasn't and the team that got Jimmy ended up signing him for a huge amount on a 5 game sample size). Let's just call it what it is, Jimmy G was not as good as Brady then, the truth of the matter is it's 2020 and he really isn't making the case he is as good as Brady now plus he is far more injury prone. It was not a no brainer and it was more prudent to forego draft capital and put off making a decision until you absolutely had to so that you could make the most informed decision possible.

Brady didn't stay because as many noted, we simply did not have much cap room due to several years of chasing rings and it ultimately led to a situation where if we signed Brady we would need to cut people and if we didn't we still were going to struggle to add pieces to the team. At 42 and with Brady now coming off two consecutive not so great seasons, it was alot easier to move on and it was easier for him to go some place where he could finish up and be supported. If Brady stayed you would have the same team minus whoever Bill needed to cut to make the mobey work.

Also the idea that Bill doesn't know what he has in Stidham after two years is laughable.

Brady didn't stay because he was sick of dealing with Belichick's BS on many different levels. Belichick was f'ing him about on his contacts before the cap ever supposedly stood in the way. The roster has thinned out primarily due to cumulative poor returns on Belichick's drafts. And the cap is in it's current state due to Belichick's mismanagement of the roster. I don't recall any large expense ring chasing moves either.

I don't know why you're making such a strong defense for not trading Brady? At no point in time would that have been of benefit to the team. As you can see their offense looks beyond horrendous without Brady. Trading Garoppolo made sense but I believe it's been pretty well established that Belichick merely called one team, made one offer, and didn't shop around looking for the best return. That's egregious.

Had they worked out a longer term deal like Brady had wanted before the 2017 and 2018 seasons he would not have gotten to the point where he wanted out. If Brady's quarterbacking this team this year they would have 4 more wins.

Also if Garoppolo shakes loose from SF I don't see him as a solution to NE's QB situation because he can't stay healthy and he's actually pretty mediocre. Their next QB should come from a first round draft pick. I don't want Newton back next season. The fact that Stidham apparently sucks, and Belichick "knows it", just represents another whiff on Belichick's part. His roster construction has been faltering for accumulating seasons now which currently has them as the third most talented team IN THEIR DIVISION.