OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I still think people are overstating Gronk's play this year. If he was just another starting TE, you can say he has been playing well over the last few weeks. For a HOF like Gronk, he has been good at times and decent mostly. He has two TDs for the season. Yes, it has been the last two games, but still. He hasn't had one of his patented games where he totally dominates the game and gets seven plus catches and 110-150+ yards. He is on pace for his lowest yards per catch percentage of his career.

He doesn't have to be a superstar in that offense like in NE; he just needs to be a guy who will consistently beat you if you don't pay much attention to him...which it appears he is if he can stay healthy. That team has so much depth at TE/WR; if Brown catches on they're going to see a lot of nickel/dime looks to stop those receivers from tearing them a new one. Having Gronk in there to feast against DBs as a blocker or pass catcher will cause some huge matchup issues.

 

[PP2]

It's very possible for guys to be very humble off the field and very arrogant on the field.

There are stories of these encounters all over the place...people running into Tom unexpectedly and being taken away by his humility and kindness. Not that other famous athletes aren't like this...but you also have plenty of assholes. Someone like Michael Jordan is someone who is unable to turn off his competitive drive in any area of his life; Tom has a unique ability to be a totally different person and psycho when he's competing but a family man and good human being when he's not. This is why a lot of Pats fans will follow this guy anywhere.

My cousin who is a producer, shot the Shields Health Care ad with Brady. He told me that Brady was very down to earth, didn't have any airs or pretension.

They ran out of time filming the ad, and still had to shoot the last Superbowl ring being put in the locker (that shot and the rest of the shots were cut from the final version of the ad, as they had shot several variations for the client, but you can still see him pull out that last ring).

Brady had to go because he had another commitment later that day, so he put that Superbowl ring into my cousin's hands and said straight to his face "you're responsible for this."

Needless to say, my cousin was ****ting bricks and wouldn't let that ring out of his sight and when they got the shots they needed, he drove that ring back to Brady's house in Brookline where he gave it back to Brady. Needless to say, he was disappointed that he wasn't invited inside, but he told me later that the house was "stately."

 

[Rob0729]

That’s because there is none. Rob is pulling a Kellerman. He thought Brady was cooked last season and now that it’s more obvious than ever that he was wrong, he’s tap dancing around it. The offense he had in 2019 was worse than any offense he’s ever had in his pro career, and yet he still threw for over 4,000 yards and had the team one clunker against Miami away from a first round bye. No quarterback can make chicken salad out of chicken **** - as is evidenced by the fact that we didn’t go to the big game in 2006, either.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I am not pulling a Kellerman. My point has never changed and I stand by it to this day. I still believe Brady has lost a step and is no longer able to elevate bad talent around him. I said he has gone from elite to very good.

I was never one of those Brady is done people. I said he lost a step. I don't think he could elevate this team anymore with the talent (or lack there of) like he used to.

The Pats were one play away from the big game in 2006. And they would have won if they did go. Stop making it sound like the Pats were one and done in 2006. He made filet minion out of chicken **** in 2006.

One place he seems to have proved me wrong is his deep ball throwing. I thought that was deteriorated more than it looks in Tampa.

 

[Rob0729]

He doesn't have to be a superstar in that offense like in NE; he just needs to be a guy who will consistently beat you if you don't pay much attention to him...which it appears he is if he can stay healthy. That team has so much depth at TE/WR; if Brown catches on they're going to see a lot of nickel/dime looks to stop those receivers from tearing them a new one. Having Gronk in there to feast against DBs as a blocker or pass catcher will cause some huge matchup issues.

I never said he did. I have just seen a lot of people act like Gronk is Gronk again. He is playing like a good starting TE right now. And yes, that is. enough for the Bucs which is stacked with talent.

 

[Kontradiction]

Stop putting words in my mouth. I am not pulling a Kellerman. My point has never changed and I stand by it to this day. I still believe Brady has lost a step and is no longer able to elevate bad talent around him. I said he has gone from elite to very good.

Yeah, except he’s playing at an MVP level. Not an elite level. Not a very good level. An MVP level. There is no evidence whatsoever that he has lost a step. You sticking to your point is simply you sticking to your point. To date, it has zero basis in reality.

I was never one of those Brady is done people. I said he lost a step. I don't think he could elevate this team anymore with the talent (or lack there of) like he used to.

Except he did last season and he has already this season. Evans is playing with a high ankle sprain, Godwin has battled injuries, he lost his TE1, and Gronk has taken a full month to round back into form. No QB in NFL history has done more than what Brady did with the trash he had to work with last season

The Pats were one play away from the big game in 2006. And they would have won if they did go. Stop making it sound like the Pats were one and done in 2006. He made filet minion out of chicken **** in 2006.

But they didn’t get there. And what he had to work with in 2006 at the skill positions was at damn sight better than what he had last year. You’re rusty, Rob. You’re moving the goal posts all over the place. You went from “Brady isn’t what he once was” to “Brady can no longer elevate a lesser team around him.” Neither accusation holds water. In the face of all evidence to the contrary, you’re acting like the guy in your avatar and sticking to a failed talking point.

 

[upstater1]

I agree but I suppose you could ask yourself if he can last 16 games and the post season. Last season some of us believed he was injured, but he would never really say it was a problem. Can he avoid nagging injuries and fatigue. I think he can. He looks nothing like Brees who I still think is a very good QB himself but has clear limitations.

You're right about that. Never before in his career had Brady had tendonitis. And last year he had elbow tendonitis. Certainly a sign of old age.

 

[upstater1]

Two years when you are over 40 is a lifetime.

And in 2006, the Pats' #1 receiver was Reche Caldwell and they had a revolving door at RT and Brady was a 4th and 2 play away from going to the Super Bowl and most likely winning it. The Pats stumbled into the playoffs last year giving up home field advantage in the process and then were one and done.

You can't look at him this year and compare him to his last few years with the Pats because of what you said. He had no weapons here and he has tons of weapons now. My point is he is still a very good to great QB who can play great with a great team around him. I am saying he cannot elevate a bad team like he used to. He can look as good as ever because he has a clean pocket and wide open receivers.

But I never said that Brady was a huge drop off from what he was. Just enough that he cannot elevate a bad team like he used to. I still think he he went from elite to top of the next tier under the Mahomes of the world which would still make him look great in an offense full of talent.

The problem is neither of us can be proven right or wrong because he didn't stay in the same situation. So we only have our opinions.

I thought Brady had lost some zip on his sideline throws to the left, thought it was a matter of his stiff torso (i.e. old age). I saw he had plenty of zip on throws to the right and downfield. But the game on Sunday has me reassessing. He had a significant amount of zip on his throws. Some were lasers to the left. He looked very very good. As good as he did 5 years ago.

No one in NFL history could have played with a line anchored by Marshall Newhouse.

 

[Rob0729]

Yeah, except he’s playing at an MVP level. Not an elite level. Not a very good level. An MVP level. There is no evidence whatsoever that he has lost a step. You sticking to your point is simply you sticking to your point. To date, it has zero basis in reality.


Except he did last season and he has already this season. Evans is playing with a high ankle sprain, Godwin has battled injuries, he lost his TE1, and Gronk has taken a full month to round back into form. No QB in NFL history has done more than what Brady did with the trash he had to work with last season



But they didn’t get there. And what he had to work with in 2006 at the skill positions was at damn sight better than what he had last year. You’re rusty, Rob. You’re moving the goal posts all over the place. You went from “Brady isn’t what he once was” to “Brady can no longer elevate a lesser team around him.” Neither accusation holds water. In the face of all evidence to the contrary, you’re acting like the guy in your avatar and sticking to a failed talking point.

He has some the best talent around him. And him playing at an MVP level is a bit of an overstatement. He had two great games and one very good game this month. He has 18 TDs this season and nine of them came in two games. Let's see how this season plays out before we judge him on three games. If he wins the MVP, then I will admit I am wrong.

Show me where he can elevate a bad team. Show me that and then I am wrong.

Your argument about 2006 is ridiculous. The Pats were one play away from going to the Super Bowl with a #3 WR at best as your primary receiver and you say since he didn't get to the Super Bowl, he didn't make chicken salad out of chicken ****. You lose all credibility with this argument alone.

 

[Rob0729]

I thought Brady had lost some zip on his sideline throws to the left, thought it was a matter of his stiff torso (i.e. old age). I saw he had plenty of zip on throws to the right and downfield. But the game on Sunday has me reassessing. He had a significant amount of zip on his throws. Some were lasers to the left. He looked very very good. As good as he did 5 years ago.

No one in NFL history could have played with a line anchored by Marshall Newhouse.

One game isn't a good way to evaluate a player on whether he is losing from age. Even players who show clear and significant signs of drop off by age can play like they did on their best day for a short period of time. I pointed to a few weeks back with Gronk how Tony Gonzalez in his last year in the league when he was clearly done came into Foxboro and had a 150 yards and two TDs. I know that isn't an apples to apples comparison, but I hope you get my point.

Again, if by the end of the season, Brady is MVP or pretty damn close, I will admit I am wrong.

 

[BradytoMosstoGronk]

I thought Brady had lost some zip on his sideline throws to the left, thought it was a matter of his stiff torso (i.e. old age). I saw he had plenty of zip on throws to the right and downfield. But the game on Sunday has me reassessing. He had a significant amount of zip on his throws. Some were lasers to the left. He looked very very good. As good as he did 5 years ago.

No one in NFL history could have played with a line anchored by Marshall Newhouse.

The game he played Sunday was outstanding. He looked like 33 year old Brady. Almost none of those catches were "supreme WR" talent making him look good. The touchdowns were Brady putting the ball where it literally had to be, and he had as spectacular a game he's had since 2007.

 

[PatsBoy12]

That’s because there is none. Rob is pulling a Kellerman. He thought Brady was cooked last season and now that it’s more obvious than ever that he was wrong, he’s tap dancing around it. The offense he had in 2019 was worse than any offense he’s ever had in his pro career, and yet he still threw for over 4,000 yards and had the team one clunker against Miami away from a first round bye. No quarterback can make chicken salad out of chicken **** - as is evidenced by the fact that we didn’t go to the big game in 2006, either.

Exactly... Brady never in his career had an offense as terrible as 2019!

 

[XLIX]

He has some the best talent around him. And him playing at an MVP level is a bit of an overstatement. He had two great games and one very good game this month. He has 18 TDs this season and nine of them came in two games. Let's see how this season plays out before we judge him on three games. If he wins the MVP, then I will admit I am wrong.

He has played 7 games, not 3. If you want to talk about who is playing at an MVP level, you don't get to cherry pick your way around certain games. You look at the whole picture.

Wilson, Brady, Rodgers and Mahomes are playing at a level to compete for the League MVP award.

Show me where he can elevate a bad team. Show me that and then I am wrong.

You seem to be woefully unaware of the fact that he took over a NE Patriots team that was 5-13 and then went 14-3 (and one of those 14 wins was a little gathering called Super Bowl 36).

I'd say 5-13 is a bad team. I'd say making them 14-3 is elevating them. Wouldn't you?

 

[Rob0729]

Exactly... Brady never in his career had an offense as terrible as 2019!

2006 was worse. At least he had Edelman last year.

 

[XLIX]

2006 was worse. At least he had Edelman last year.

Edelman was barely functional by the end of last year. He obviously had some WR talent in September but by December, his WR/TE group was the worst he had at any point in his career.

 

[Rob0729]

He has played 7 games, not 3. If you want to talk about who is playing at an MVP level, you don't get to cherry pick your way around certain games. You look at the whole picture.

Wilson, Brady, Rodgers and Mahomes are playing at a level to compete for the League MVP award.

You seem to be woefully unaware of the fact that he took over a NE Patriots team that was 5-13 and then went 14-3 (and one of those 14 wins was a little gathering called Super Bowl 36).

I'd say 5-13 is a bad team. I'd say making them 14-3 is elevating them. Wouldn't you?

He played three MVP quality games this year. I cherry picking the good games, not the bad games. If you want to throw in the game where he sucked more power to you.

The Bucks reloaded this year. Brady was far from the only addition that they added this year. They rebuilt the o-line and added players like JPP and Suh to the defense,

But you seem to forget that a horrible QB like Jameis Winston threw for 5109 yards and 33 TDs last year.

 

[Rob0729]

Edelman was barely functional by the end of last year. He obviously had some WR talent in September but by December, his WR/TE group was the worst he had at any point in his career.

Edelman still had the best year of his career last year. But I will give you he was injured last year.

But even without Edelman, it wasn't much worse than 2006. And Brady struggled before Edelman got injured.

 

[PatsBoy12]

2006 was worse. At least he had Edelman last year.

No, it wasn't. I'm not just talking about the perimeter players.

 

[BradytoMosstoGronk]

One game isn't a good way to evaluate a player on whether he is losing from age. Even players who show clear and significant signs of drop off by age can play like they did on their best day for a short period of time. I pointed to a few weeks back with Gronk how Tony Gonzalez in his last year in the league when he was clearly done came into Foxboro and had a 150 yards and two TDs. I know that isn't an apples to apples comparison, but I hope you get my point.

Again, if by the end of the season, Brady is MVP or pretty damn close, I will admit I am wrong.

How many games do "you" need? Seems like there's an ample sample size to actually form an opinion. He also lost OJ, Evans is hurt and missed time and so has Godwin. He's got a fluctuating WR corps and he's 18 TDs, 4 ints... on a brand new team in his first year.

 

[203Pat]

He has some the best talent around him. And him playing at an MVP level is a bit of an overstatement. He had two great games and one very good game this month. He has 18 TDs this season and nine of them came in two games. Let's see how this season plays out before we judge him on three games. If he wins the MVP, then I will admit I am wrong.

Show me where he can elevate a bad team. Show me that and then I am wrong.

Your argument about 2006 is ridiculous. The Pats were one play away from going to the Super Bowl with a #3 WR at best as your primary receiver and you say since he didn't get to the Super Bowl, he didn't make chicken salad out of chicken ****. You lose all credibility with this argument alone.

NFL MVP watch, Week 7: Tom Brady looks better than ever
Tom Brady Surges in the MVP Race | FOX Sports Radio

 

[1960Pats]

BB is treading in dangerous territory of what happens when you lose the GOAT and other key veterans towing the "Patriot Way". You turn into Greg Popovich who was mediocre before scoring Tim Duncan. Then he scored Parker and Ginobli and was considered one of the best coaches of all time. Now he's been an afterthought since losing Kawhi Leonard.

When you lose the greatest leader at QB, veterans start to depart and the team isn't winning, BB will start getting tuned out by the new generation of players.

That's why Bill always claims that it's a players' game, because it is. There are plenty of less than average coaches that got teams to a SB and even won, but all of them had the players to do it.

Andy Reid, Sean McVay, Doud Pederson, Dan Quinn, Gary Kubiak, John Fox (twice), Mike McCarthy, Mike Tomlin, Lovie Smith, Jim Caldwell, Ken Whisenhunt and Mike Holmgren all got to or won SBs.