OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[jimnance]

Ok, so I can't respond to all of this because I'm really not saying that deep talent doesn't matter, or Brady's deep ball wasn't good in 2007. Or that he couldn't get comeback wins. Or that there is something "lesser" about short throws. ect. ect. What I'm saying is that Tampa Bay isn't even close to the 2007 Patriots, and Brady is hitting guys in stride & dropping it in the bucket way, way better than usual. 2007? Yes, Brady was great, but there were more than a few deep pass completions that were noticeably off-target & Moss had to bail out Brady. There were also a few times, on incomplete passes, where Randy Moss had to play defensive-back and swat the ball down to prevent the INT (and even intentionally get the PI) just to prevent Brady's deep pass from getting picked. I'm not seeing any of this in Tampa Bay. Brady's deep ball is way more consistent in accuracy. Mike Evans isn't Randy Moss, he wasn't even 100%. So, it's not just talent. It's coaching, too. That's from Arian's emphasis on the deep ball; the amount of time spent in practice on this, the play-design, etc. Everyone knows that's Arians style; and despite its flaws, it really does work when it comes developing the deep game. Put that same Bucs offense in NE, without Arians, and there's no way Brady throws that deep, that often, that well, with that much touch...

Totally disagree. Brady has led the nfl in deep ball throwing more than once. Not sure which exact years but its easy to look up.
As a Pats fan, you should have known this.
The criteria was the ball traveling 30yds or more in the air b4 being touched. #1 in accuracy on those throws.
Kinda destroys the whole premise of your post. But dont let the facts get in the way of
your (false) narrative.

 

[Kdo5]

I didn’t want to say that, but yes. If Hoyer goes out there, we are getting massacred

Yeah. The defense would have to play the game of their lives to make this a close one. There’s going to be a lot of three and outs. If the defense struggles it will get ugly quick. I think we’ll just want to get out of dodge by half time.

 

[jimnance]

Totally disagree. Brady has led the nfl in deep ball throwing more than once. Not sure which exact years but its easy to look up.
As a Pats fan, you should have known this.
The criteria was the ball traveling 30yds or more in the air b4 being touched. #1 in accuracy on those throws.
Kinda destroys the whole premise of your post. But dont let the facts get in the way of
your (false) narrative.

Correction on criteria: its 20yds + in the air, not 30. Brady was 4th in nfl as recently as 2018. Mahomes was 6th. Big dropoff last year but not due to any loss of arm strength. Simply had no deepball wrs. Whenever Brady has had wrs that can go deep, hes always been at or near the top in deep ball accuracy.

 

[Joker]

Yeah. The defense would have to play the game of their lives to make this a close one. There’s going to be a lot of three and outs. If the defense struggles it will get ugly quick. I think we’ll just want to get out of dodge by half time.

"win the first half!!!"...heh...yeah, I remember when I thought that was great as a Pats fan...krist, I had a nightmare the other night that featured Joe Kapp prominently...

 

[BradytoMosstoGronk]

"win the first half!!!"...heh...yeah, I remember when I thought that was great as a Pats fan...krist, I had a nightmare the other night that featured Joe Kapp prominently...

I was 3 when Bledsoe took over, so i'm not sure i've been alive (or took football serious enough) for very much BAD NE football. I guess i'm beyond spoiled. I salute you older and wiser bunch that endured bad football so semi-young people like me could endure great football.

 

[Joker]

I was 3 when Bledsoe took over, so i'm not sure i've been alive (or took football serious enough) for very much BAD NE football. I guess i'm beyond spoiled. I salute you older and wiser bunch that endured bad football so semi-young people like me could endure great football.

It was truly great to be a Pats fan then because we were happy just to have a team in the NFL. We knew our local owners were as nutty as we were and they tried to field competitive teams but...we all knew the other teams always had more talent. Joe Kapp though....THAT was freakin' hard to keep our interest. I mean he could not throw a spiral over five yards....you know why? HE COULDN'T THROW A SPIRAL PERIOD! You know what it's like to look at the other teams and see John Hadl and Lenny Dawson and Griese throwing all over the field and then have to watch Kapp hand off to Carl Garrett and Bo Nance...marked men every game because Kapp COULD NOT THROW A FOOTBALL! I tell ya', it awesome because we always KNEW it could never be worse again.

 

[jimnance]

In 60 yrs watching the nfl, never seen anyone throw an uglier bsll than Kapp.
Ok Garo Yepremian that one time.
But he was a kicker

 

[Deus Irae]

To think the Belichick haters actually believed (hoped?) we'd be the worst team in the league without Brady. LMAO

Who thought the Patriots were going to be the worst team in the league with Newton under center?

 

[Boomer B]

It was truly great to be a Pats fan then because we were happy just to have a team in the NFL. We knew our local owners were as nutty as we were and they tried to field competitive teams but...we all knew the other teams always had more talent. Joe Kapp though....THAT was freakin' hard to keep our interest. I mean he could not throw a spiral over five yards....you know why? HE COULDN'T THROW A SPIRAL PERIOD! You know what it's like to look at the other teams and see John Hadl and Lenny Dawson and Griese throwing all over the field and then have to watch Kapp hand off to Carl Garrett and Bo Nance...marked men every game because Kapp COULD NOT THROW A FOOTBALL! I tell ya', it awesome because we always KNEW it could never be worse again.

He not only couldn’t throw a spiral but he also throws weak punches at old men with canes.

 

[Deus Irae]

 

[Shockt327]

Totally disagree. Brady has led the nfl in deep ball throwing more than once. Not sure which exact years but its easy to look up.
As a Pats fan, you should have known this.
The criteria was the ball traveling 30yds or more in the air b4 being touched. #1 in accuracy on those throws.
Kinda destroys the whole premise of your post. But dont let the facts get in the way of
your (false) narrative.

None of what you say has anything to do with my point (which is entirely pro-Brady, at that). My entire argument, again, is that when Brady's deep ball is off people blamed it on the lack of talent in NE. That's great, I don't disagree, but I think its also due to the lack of coaching and the lack of emphasis on the deep ball (which Arians has never had a problem with). Brady looks more consistent in Tampa, despite his old age & Evans not being 100%. Hell, he looks more consistent even when the deep ball goes to Scotty Miller. Miller is 5'10 on his tip-toes; he's not a deep ball guy. Brady is making him look that way. Did Wes Welker get used like this? How many deep balls did Welker get in NE? Again, you site stats to show that Brady was always good. I never doubted that. I'm saying it would of been even better (and also not as bad when the talent was lacking) if NE emphasized the deep pass and practiced it to the degree Arians does. That's all.

Also, I find it hysterical that you are trying to site stats to me, but can't keep track of what stats it is. I've kept an excel spreadsheet from when ESPN used to feature the "Passes Thrown" stat from 2002-2014. I specially tracked anything that was "31-40" & "41+ yards." I've posted this over the years, on this site, at that. Specifically for when people claimed Brady sucked when throwing deep. He wasn't terrible, but he was far more up-or-down, hit-or-miss, than some of the other QBs I kept track of. My entire argument is that this was not just lack of weapons...it was coaching, too.

 

[Zarozzor]

The Thursday game sucks. Hard to imagine Evans being able to play in that and even if he does, how effective. That ankle will be hurting by tomorrow with swelling. I just hope him and Godwin stop getting banged up every game.

 

[Zarozzor]

@Ice_Ice_Brady
Some gems in this thread

NFL all-time passing touchdowns record

Through Oct. 4, 2020: Drew Brees 555 Tom Brady 552

saintsreport.com

The only thing that makes me a little sad about this is Brees almost certainly isn't coming back next year, but Brady's ego alone is going to will him and his walker onto the field to throw at least 1 more TD than Brees just so he can have at least ONE record that the talking heads can harp on as they try tirelessly to convince people that Brady is the greatest QB to ever touch a football.

 

[carmelo15]

That wasn't me. I always said Brady would have a good year.

Bet you're still seething the Pats are pretty good without him though

you called him a system QB your credibility has been shot for a while now

 

[sb1]

you called him a system QB your credibility has been shot for a while now

Still seething. Lmao

 

[Doctor DDS]

Tampa needs to make the playoffs for it to be a successful year. Obviously winning a couple playoff games will make it extremely successful but with Seattle, GB and other good teams in the NFC making it to the NFC Championship game will be a huge challenge.

 

[jimnance]

None of what you say has anything to do with my point (which is entirely pro-Brady, at that). My entire argument, again, is that when Brady's deep ball is off people blamed it on the lack of talent in NE. That's great, I don't disagree, but I think its also due to the lack of coaching and the lack of emphasis on the deep ball (which Arians has never had a problem with). Brady looks more consistent in Tampa, despite his old age & Evans not being 100%. Hell, he looks more consistent even when the deep ball goes to Scotty Miller. Miller is 5'10 on his tip-toes; he's not a deep ball guy. Brady is making him look that way. Did Wes Welker get used like this? How many deep balls did Welker get in NE? Again, you site stats to show that Brady was always good. I never doubted that. I'm saying it would of been even better (and also not as bad when the talent was lacking) if NE emphasized the deep pass and practiced it to the degree Arians does. That's all.

Also, I find it hysterical that you are trying to site stats to me, but can't keep track of what stats it is. I've kept an excel spreadsheet from when ESPN used to feature the "Passes Thrown" stat from 2002-2014. I specially tracked anything that was "31-40" & "41+ yards." I've posted this over the years, on this site, at that. Specifically for when people claimed Brady sucked when throwing deep. He wasn't terrible, but he was far more up-or-down, hit-or-miss, than some of the other QBs I kept track of. My entire argument is that this was not just lack of weapons...it was coaching, too.

 

[jimnance]

I saw the data on Bradys career deepball throwing more than 10 years ago. So Im going on memory. Im not going to do a deepdive on stats. Dont have the time or the inclination for it.
But that doesnt change anything.
I know that his career deepball accuracy #'s ( defined as balls traveling 20 or more yds in the air)are among the best all time, not up and down.
Ok so we basically agree on his ability
Where we disagree is what having a different hc like Arians wouldve meant to his career.
I think we both know Brady wouldve been an alltime great no matter who or where he played. Hes a transcendent talent.
But a championship football team is much more than just a qb throwing deepballs.
Belichick, like Brady, is also a transcendent talent. The result if their collaboration is 6 Lombardi trophies and the greatest, longest run in history. Comparing Arians to Belichick is like comparing Brady to Hugh Millen.
Its absurd. TB would've thrown a few more deep balls with Arians but at what expense to the rest of his game, not to mention the overall quality if the entire team? Having a killer passing game doesnt mean squat if your defense sucks. Ask Marino.

 

[PatsBoy12]

 

[PatsBoy12]