Pats @ Ravens all-22 rewatch thread

[catent]

Has Shelton ever shown anything to thing he'd be able to hold up 2 gapping against a physical front or any average front for that matter ?

Point being the blame should not go to Shelton but to BB and the coaching staff for a bad gameplan that put Shelton into an impossible situation.

That being said you build your team to get into the playoffs and the way the Pats D is built they will handle 80% of opponents relatively well. On some level given constraints like the salary cap and roster size limits it is like a mathematical optimisation problem.. you are trying to have the personnel to be able to deal with as many teams as possible on your schedule.

So it is kinda hard to say that this was based on a roster building mistake especially when they have dominated more typical offenses with absolute ease.

As most here I am really looking forward to a potential second matchup mostly because I am just so curious how BB uses the additional information he has to stay a few steps ahead. All I can say for sure I'd be shocked if they put Shelton into the same position if there is a next time.

I totally agree.

In a vacuum, Shelton failed in his 2-gapping role. But as you said, he never should've been put in that role in the first place.

 

[Kontradiction]

Has Shelton ever shown anything to thing he'd be able to hold up 2 gapping against a physical front or any average front for that matter ?

Point being the blame should not go to Shelton but to BB and the coaching staff for a bad gameplan that put Shelton into an impossible situation.

That being said you build your team to get into the playoffs and the way the Pats D is built they will handle 80% of opponents relatively well. On some level given constraints like the salary cap and roster size limits it is like a mathematical optimisation problem.. you are trying to have the personnel to be able to deal with as many teams as possible on your schedule.

So it is kinda hard to say that this was based on a roster building mistake especially when they have dominated more typical offenses with absolute ease.

As most here I am really looking forward to a potential second matchup mostly because I am just so curious how BB uses the additional information he has to stay a few steps ahead. All I can say for sure I'd be shocked if they put Shelton into the same position if there is a next time.

They’ll get ripped on the ground again in a second match-up. Maybe not AS bad, but still badly. Ravens’ personnel matches up favorably with the Pats personnel. They’d have to win that game on offense and just simply out score Baltimore.

 

[TomPatriot]

They’ll get ripped on the ground again in a second match-up. Maybe not AS bad, but still badly. Ravens’ personnel matches up favorably with the Pats personnel. They’d have to win that game on offense and just simply out score Baltimore.

I have more faith in this defense and in the defensive coach's ability to stop the Ravens' offense. That first quarter isn't happening again.

But we'll see.

 

[luuked]

They’ll get ripped on the ground again in a second match-up. Maybe not AS bad, but still badly. Ravens’ personnel matches up favorably with the Pats personnel. They’d have to win that game on offense and just simply out score Baltimore.

To me one of the most reasonably probable ways to beat them is to go HARD after the run even if it means RBs/TEs on LBs all day and more simple coverages out of base. Accept that, minimise the damage and make LJ throw the ball at least twice as much as he did last Sunday. He is considerably more likely to make a mistake throwing the ball than any other way. Maybe you can mind**** him with something exotic 2-3 times and he gives you the ball.

And, yes, that would still require the offense and ST to have a great day.

 

[patfanken]

Their RO was very clean & crisp. Everything was rolling for them. Very much like peak Kap-49ers when Roman was there. 2012, I believe. Watched a lil last night & it was almost like watching the same players. Just an incredibly well put together team.

Roman is the perfect guy to build a ground game & when given the personnel he's had, it makes it very difficult to stop. Esp in the gun. It doesn't take a lot to completely screw w a defense.
Switch to play nickel? In that case its the LB over the B gap, thats really all you have to worry abt. That's Jackson read. He bites you have the shallow to complete an easy pass underneath. Stays or hesitates & its over through the ground.

Extremely tough to deal w snap by snap basis.

I posted a clip above that MG put out to show just how hard their game is to defend.

You a really good, versatile OL. Vg RBs & a dynamic QB. And we caught their A game.

You bring up a good point about "finding the key" and making the easy read. The response to this is "hiding" or changing the key. The Pats are uniquely positioned to accomplish this given the size and versatility of their LB's. and DB's

If you know before the snap who the QB will be keying you can predetermine what you want the player the QB is keying to do, so everyone else down the line gains a half step on THEIR reads because they already know what the QB will do.

Am I making myself clear. Hard do explain without a chalk board. But at any rate, the Pats won't be helpless if there is a second time around with the Ravens, there are adjustments that CAN be made.

 

[patfanken]

BTW- After all the analysis by everyone, has there been a determination about whether the Pats were simply out schemed, or where the Pats just didn't make the correct reads, and if they had they could have at least controlled the Ravens' run game.

Also I agree with the Shelton analysis. It's been clear for a while that Shelton is at his best as an attacking DLman. It's not pretty watching him doing his best trying to imitate Vince or Ted Washington. I don't think he was horrible though, and it was certainly better technique than what he showed early last season.

 

[Kontradiction]

BTW- After all the analysis by everyone, has there been a determination about whether the Pats were simply out schemed, or where the Pats just didn't make the correct reads, and if they had they could have at least controlled the Ravens' run game.

Also I agree with the Shelton analysis. It's been clear for a while that Shelton is at his best as an attacking DLman. It's not pretty watching him doing his best trying to imitate Vince or Ted Washington. I don't think he was horrible though, and it was certainly better technique than what he showed early last season.

I don’t think the Pats we’re out-schemed at all. I think it’s clear that they just got dominated in the trenches. That’s a personnel issue more than a scheme issue. I mean if you were even to sub in Vince in 2014 over Shelton, they would have had better results even though Vince was well past his prime at that point. He would have still eaten up two blockers and effectively closed two gaps.

 

[gitgronked82]

I'm someone who understands the x's and o's of pass game (coverages, route schemes) a lot better than the run game. As a receiver, I never learned the run schemes other than who I had to block. And never had to ID fronts.

I read most of this thread, but still don't really understand it. So the Ravens ran a gap blocking scheme rather than a zone blocking scheme? And what about our personnel exactly makes this a bad matchup? I see that Shelton isn't a dominant nose, but i'd think he's at least league average, no?

LB's too slow working sideline to sideline? I think of KVN and Collins as pretty quick. Maybe I'm wrong.

With the Ravens being in what I saw as 1-3 personnel lots throughout the game, I don't think it's reasonable for us to run like a dollar package like people talk about the chargers doing last year. So I get why we have to stay heavy, and then of course that makes it hard when u get lamar in space vs someone who's in there to play the power run.

Basically, can someone explain why
1) the scheme the ravens run is a bad matchup for our defensive scheme?
2) our personnel isn't good for this matchup?

 

[PP2]

BTW- After all the analysis by everyone, has there been a determination about whether the Pats were simply out schemed, or where the Pats just didn't make the correct reads, and if they had they could have at least controlled the Ravens' run game.

Also I agree with the Shelton analysis. It's been clear for a while that Shelton is at his best as an attacking DLman. It's not pretty watching him doing his best trying to imitate Vince or Ted Washington. I don't think he was horrible though, and it was certainly better technique than what he showed early last season.

Speaking as someone who hasn't seen the entire game, only bits and pieces of it, and hence why I've been mostly silent in this thread- it seems as if we were initially flummoxed by their choice to gap block than zone block (knowing BB's preference for having our DL tie up blockers allowing our LBs to make plays), amongst other things, but we did make enough adjustments to stay competitive and if White wasn't tripped, would have tied the game at the half, and of course who knows what would have happened if Edelman didn't fumble. Things just snowballed from there, it seems.

We could have tried to minimize, but we were definitely not going to stop the best run game in the league, in Baltimore.

Sometimes things just don't go our way- I think a loss now is better than a critical one later.

 

[PP2]

I'm someone who understands the x's and o's of pass game (coverages, route schemes) a lot better than the run game. As a receiver, I never learned the run schemes other than who I had to block. And never had to ID fronts.

I read most of this thread, but still don't really understand it. So the Ravens ran a gap blocking scheme rather than a zone blocking scheme? And what about our personnel exactly makes this a bad matchup? I see that Shelton isn't a dominant nose, but i'd think he's at least league average, no?

LB's too slow working sideline to sideline? I think of KVN and Collins as pretty quick. Maybe I'm wrong.

With the Ravens being in what I saw as 1-3 personnel lots throughout the game, I don't think it's reasonable for us to run like a dollar package like people talk about the chargers doing last year. So I get why we have to stay heavy, and then of course that makes it hard when u get lamar in space vs someone who's in there to play the power run.

Basically, can someone explain why
1) the scheme the ravens run is a bad matchup for our defensive scheme?
2) our personnel isn't good for this matchup?

1) The gap-blocking schemes that Baltimore ran against our defense is kryptonite to our two-gapping scheme because gap blocking is read-based, so Baltimore had an answer for whatever we did. No matter if our LB's crashed, sat, or dropped, Baltimore had an answer for each of those option. However, what Baltimore excelled at was mixing things up just enough to keep our defense off-foot. They didn't gap-block all game long- they also did a fair share of zone-blocking.

2) It's not that our personnel was bad for this matchup, our scheme for this game was just a poor choice. You can bet that the next time we face them, we won't be two gapping so much. We'll (hopefully) be much more aggressive, more one-gapping- try to get in the backfield to disrupt the mesh point, disrupt the read before it can happen. I see us going with a bigger front and not relying on LB's so much.

The good thing is that no other team can easily replicate what Baltimore did to us.

 

[Kontradiction]

1) The gap-blocking schemes that Baltimore ran against our defense is kryptonite to our two-gapping scheme because gap blocking is read-based, so Baltimore had an answer for whatever we did. No matter if our LB's crashed, sat, or dropped, Baltimore had an answer for each of those option. However, what Baltimore excelled at was mixing things up just enough to keep our defense off-foot. They didn't gap-block all game long- they also did a fair share of zone-blocking.

2) It's not that our personnel was bad for this matchup, our scheme for this game was just a poor choice. You can bet that the next time we face them, we won't be two gapping so much. We'll (hopefully) be much more aggressive, more one-gapping- try to get in the backfield to disrupt the mesh point, disrupt the read before it can happen. I see us going with a bigger front and not relying on LB's so much.

The good thing is that no other team can easily replicate what Baltimore did to us.

I thought the Patriots had the most success on defense when they were throwing amoeba fronts at the Ravens. They were getting quicker penetration into the backfield.

 

[patfanken]

I thought the Patriots had the most success on defense when they were throwing amoeba fronts at the Ravens. They were getting quicker penetration into the backfield.

Quite possibly the amoeba fronts made it harder for Jackson to find his key. Like I said above, disguising or changing up the key will be a bigger part of the defensive plan next time.

Also there will be 8 more games where the Ravens' offense be caught on film and 8 more looks at what other teams will use to try and stop him. The Pats will get to see more of what works and what doesn't as the season goes along.

What the Ravens have done is create a unique offense that hasn't been seen for over 50 years. When I look at it, it reminds me of the old wing-T option offense, only with QB in the shot gun (which is a really cool adjustment made necessary to protect the QB). They deserve a lot of credit for going all in on it, though it doesn't change the fact I hate that team and organization more than any other team, INCLUDING the Jets.

 

[luuked]

Speaking as someone who hasn't seen the entire game, only bits and pieces of it, and hence why I've been mostly silent in this thread- it seems as if we were initially flummoxed by their choice to gap block than zone block (knowing BB's preference for having our DL tie up blockers allowing our LBs to make plays), amongst other things, but we did make enough adjustments to stay competitive and if White wasn't tripped, would have tied the game at the half, and of course who knows what would have happened if Edelman didn't fumble. Things just snowballed from there, it seems.

I had a busy week so really not time to rewatch much at all but I wonder how much the early success the Ravens had and how they played in the second half had in common.

To me it looks like the real killer early on -- and it was most probably part of Baltimore's strategy -- was to bring out the surprise, then throw a lot of weird things at Brady early in hopes of keeping the possessions as short as possible so the staff wouldn't have much time to formulate adjustments and also explain them to the defense.

I didn't think it was a coincidence that the defense suddenly found more success right after the first somewhat longer possession that included a turnover on ST, a couple of plays on offense AND a scoring play.

The following possessions were PUNT, FUMBLE, PUNT, HALFTIME.

So in other words did the Ravens mix it up in the second half (i.e. their adjustments to our early adjustments in the first half) or did they have success the very same way as before ?

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

You bring up a good point about "finding the key" and making the easy read. The response to this is "hiding" or changing the key. The Pats are uniquely positioned to accomplish this given the size and versatility of their LB's. and DB's

If you know before the snap who the QB will be keying you can predetermine what you want the player the QB is keying to do, so everyone else down the line gains a half step on THEIR reads because they already know what the QB will do.

Am I making myself clear. Hard do explain without a chalk board. But at any rate, the Pats won't be helpless if there is a second time around with the Ravens, there are adjustments that CAN be made.

Quite possibly the amoeba fronts made it harder for Jackson to find his key. Like I said above, disguising or changing up the key will be a bigger part of the defensive plan next time.

Also there will be 8 more games where the Ravens' offense be caught on film and 8 more looks at what other teams will use to try and stop him. The Pats will get to see more of what works and what doesn't as the season goes along.

What the Ravens have done is create a unique offense that hasn't been seen for over 50 years. When I look at it, it reminds me of the old wing-T option offense, only with QB in the shot gun (which is a really cool adjustment made necessary to protect the QB). They deserve a lot of credit for going all in on it, though it doesn't change the fact I hate that team and organization more than any other team, INCLUDING the Jets.

Tried responding but just exhausted last night. In bed around 6.

Absolutely worth exploring. I honestly was thinking along similar lines in both the read & just a way to try & slice through those heavy fronts. Ravens ran the 38 times I believe not including kneel downs & we had like 3 TFL? That alone highlights the fact that we weren't aggressive enough. At least in certain instances.

Maybe some pre snap movement (try to cut backside w our 3T) when we feel comfortable or just try to attack a certain link w the shot of getting vertical/upfield.

DT stunt or DT/DE

Zombie/Amoeba front..
Either way that's a way to get moving to try to manipulate some pressure & possibly make them hesitate or pause for a second.

Another thing that became quite apparent, but OT but DT is a priority next year imo. Just kinda speaks to the fact that we're going to have to make a few moves next time if we see them.

They ran about 10-11 types of runs last game (OZ, IZ, ZR, Power, Duo, trip O, QB power, QB OZ, QB sweep) probably missing some considering I'm doing this on my couch/lunch break lol

Needless to say our guys are
1)going to have to adjust on the fly. Collective & individual w/out a pep talk from Bill. Stay ready, be ready. A ton is getting thrown at you from snap to snap.
They have to be the most versatile/equipped to run the ball.
2)Its a #'s game. Or at least it was last game. More then a few times we were caught w few guys then they had on w/e side/how they were attacking. Huge part of the gap scheme. Not sure if I mentioned it but yea it stood out & want to put it out there for next time.

 

[Kontradiction]

Best re-watch thread of all time?

 

[patfanken]

Tried responding but just exhausted last night. In bed around 6.

Absolutely worth exploring. I honestly was thinking along similar lines in both the read & just a way to try & slice through those heavy fronts. Ravens ran the 38 times I believe not including kneel downs & we had like 3 TFL? That alone highlights the fact that we weren't aggressive enough. At least in certain instances.

Maybe some pre snap movement (try to cut backside w our 3T) when we feel comfortable or just try to attack a certain link w the shot of getting vertical/upfield.

DT stunt or DT/DE

Zombie/Amoeba front..
Either way that's a way to get moving to try to manipulate some pressure & possibly make them hesitate or pause for a second.

Another thing that became quite apparent, but OT but DT is a priority next year imo. Just kinda speaks to the fact that we're going to have to make a few moves next time if we see them.

They ran about 10-11 types of runs last game (OZ, IZ, ZR, Power, Duo, trip O, QB power, QB OZ, QB sweep) probably missing some considering I'm doing this on my couch/lunch break lol

Needless to say our guys are
1)going to have to adjust on the fly. Collective & individual w/out a pep talk from Bill. Stay ready, be ready. A ton is getting thrown at you from snap to snap.
They have to be the most versatile/equipped to run the ball.
2)Its a #'s game. Or at least it was last game. More then a few times we were caught w few guys then they had on w/e side/how they were attacking. Huge part of the gap scheme. Not sure if I mentioned it but yea it stood out & want to put it out there for next time.

Here's the thing. This team is clearly better when the DL is going vertical. The only true 2 gapper we have is Guy, though I think Shelton has the physical attributes to do it, but he's only had a season and half of actually doing it, and its clearly not the best use of his talents.

The ideal way to defend the option IS to 2 gap. You want to play horizontally until the QB declares. Stop the run and make the QB declare fast enough for the rest of the defense to react. When you play vertically, you can create big splash plays when you guess right, but it can also opens up huge gaps in the defense when you guess wrong. That's the conundrum.

Given the talent we have, the answer, as usual, lies somewhere in the middle. The key is to create confusion in the QB. Make him start guessing about what he is seeing and THAT will require the Pats to take some chances and go vertical at times....just not all the time or even most of the time. Look one way, then go the other. Easier said than done though.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Here's the thing. This team is clearly better when the DL is going vertical. The only true 2 gapper we have is Guy, though I think Shelton has the physical attributes to do it, but he's only had a season and half of actually doing it, and its clearly not the best use of his talents.

The ideal way to defend the option IS to 2 gap. You want to play horizontally until the QB declares. Stop the run and make the QB declare fast enough for the rest of the defense to react. When you play vertically, you can create big splash plays when you guess right, but it can also opens up huge gaps in the defense when you guess wrong. That's the conundrum.

Given the talent we have, the answer, as usual, lies somewhere in the middle. The key is to create confusion in the QB. Make him start guessing about what he is seeing and THAT will require the Pats to take some chances and go vertical at times....just not all the time or even most of the time. Look one way, then go the other. Easier said than done though.

Yea I think those would just be good as something to sprinkle in on the opportunity.

W/e we do, something mentioned or the unknown. I'd like to see us implement something on 1st down.

We want Jackson to pass so 1st downs are key (capt obvious) to force them into a pssing down as much as we can.

I feel comfortable playing those odds even if that means making him throw short all day to his RBs & TEs.

Any preference 1st or 2nd down?

Also curious where, what we could do w Wise next time around.

Btw regarding Shelton, going back to last year it looks like most want him going east/west for obvious reason.

So many plays are doa w/out his man giving max effort bc its literally a sprint to a spot in those cases.
We need him holding a poa, getting vert. Asking him to cover some of the ground he's tasked w is a lost cause it seems. I have nightmares going back to Houston last year on certain runs.

You kicking him outside makes any sense for some down/distance. Maybe not at DE but just a lil further away to either cut off some ground he has to cover or have him try to create a pile up somewhere as a clogger, just not from the nose?

 

[gitgronked82]

1) The gap-blocking schemes that Baltimore ran against our defense is kryptonite to our two-gapping scheme because gap blocking is read-based, so Baltimore had an answer for whatever we did. No matter if our LB's crashed, sat, or dropped, Baltimore had an answer for each of those option. However, what Baltimore excelled at was mixing things up just enough to keep our defense off-foot. They didn't gap-block all game long- they also did a fair share of zone-blocking.

2) It's not that our personnel was bad for this matchup, our scheme for this game was just a poor choice. You can bet that the next time we face them, we won't be two gapping so much. We'll (hopefully) be much more aggressive, more one-gapping- try to get in the backfield to disrupt the mesh point, disrupt the read before it can happen. I see us going with a bigger front and not relying on LB's so much.

The good thing is that no other team can easily replicate what Baltimore did to us.

Well can't they read any defense? It's that our two gap scheme is more conservative so they are able to read it and attack?

So if it was a scheme mismatch and not as much a personnel mismatch, why are people in this thread saying that they would be able to run over us again in a playoff rematch? If our personnel matches up ok, we have smart defensive coaches that could adjust the scheme.

I agree that other teams won't be able to run a similar attack to what we saw. One of the main reasons the "Pats D got exposed" take is dumb.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I understand there were certainly issues with our defensive scheme vs gap blocking but our tackling has not been great these past few games. Might be a reason why BB had them in full pads this week as he sees the same thing we do.

 

[slam]

Word of Muth reviews the Ravens OL, finds unsurprisingly that they played real good.

Word of Muth: Fun Night in Baltimore