Criticizing Belichick the GM

[203Pat]

I, honestly, want to understand what you are saying here.

Are you employing the word "stocked" meaning measurable "talented"? If so, there are several Cincy Bengals and Dallas Cowboys teams of the past 2 decades that were "stocked". Cleveland, this year, is still consider "stocked".

IIRC, Belichick has actually come out and said in public something to the effect of "We are not collecting talent, we are trying to assemble the best team mix..."

People look at it differently. It seems BB has a different mindset than the rest of the league. I'm not sure if it's still the same situation, but years ago, the Patriots used to be the only team not subscribing to the same draft ratings program that the other 31 employed. They were LITERALLY off the grid.

Very simply, BB has been using a different language than the other 31. If judging by their standardized matrix, yes, his system will not translate.

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I don’t know why this is so difficult. I basically said we are comparing Patriots rosters to other Patriots rosters. Apparently people can’t even admit that some Patriots teams are more “stocked” than other Patriots teams. I don’t really care what Dallas or Cincinnati are doing.

 

[moosekill]

Lol maybe you should up your standards or stop posting. A second round pick should be in a position to start within their first few years in the league. Jones was never a starting caliber from the minute he showed up. He couldn’t even make it as a punt returner. I’m embarrassed for you if you don’t think Duke Dawson was a bust. He never played a snap for us, was a healthy scratch for half his rookie year, and was traded for peanuts in his second training camp. But hey he’s still a reserve player for a completely different team so he’s an adequate second round pick!

The Patriots have a historically good defensive backfield. The pick used on a player who isn't good enough to unseat one of those great corners is a bad pick. That pick could have gone to pick another wide receiver, or a kicker or whomever. However, in my mind, it doesn't make them a bust. Especially, if that player ends up on another NFL team. I also don't consider Jacoby B a bust. He was picked and only played in two games for us. He was not good enough to unseat Tom Brady, and he was traded away. Was he a bad pick? We got more for him then we did for Duke, but we still traded him away because we didn't need him.

 

[supafly]

“Not gonna do it. Wouldn’t be prudent.”

 

[JarOfMayo51]

I'm always frustrated by the fans that whine about Belichick the GM when he is undoubtedly one of the best TEAM BUILDERS in all sports. This article captures his greatness.

The notion that Belichick the GM hurts Belichick the head coach is utterly preposterous

Is he perfect? No! But he's a lot closer than the rest of us.

Wish there was a magical remote like in the movie "Click", so that for funsies we could go back in time 20 years, hire one of the Michael Jordan GMs from this message board into the Pats role, then fast forward back to today and see the complete dumpster fire the team has become as a result.

There is no one in the history of this sport that you would rather have coaching and managing a football team than Bill Belichick

 

[Deus Irae]

A question for those homers who are losing their minds in this thread (Sane people are also welcome to respond, but I'm looking to see what the insane BB posse uses for logic):


What is Belichick's biggest strength as a GM?

 

[JMC00]

What is Belichick's biggest strength as a GM?

Don't fall for this weak bait, people. Anything you say he'll have a nitpick for it.

 

[IcyPatriot]

What is Belichick's biggest strength as a GM?

Maximizing his roster to take advantage of a variety of opponents over the course of the season.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Agree to disagree. Post our last 5 drafts, an incredible amount of high misses in first 3 rounds

I'm just not seeing it.

2017 was the worst draft by far, but thats not a fair comparison because they only had two 3rd rounders that year that were middle and end of the round. Its unreasonable to expect hits on late 3rd rounders, the percentages drop significantly in the 2nd round. You're fortunate to even get a solid role player in round 3

1st round hasn't had any misses. these make up 4/17 (23.5%) of the picks.
They didn't miss on any 1st rounders, mostly because they either had them stolen from the league or traded 1 for Cooks, who helped get us to a Superbowl and then proceeded to get KO'd by being an idiot in the 1st quarter... but anyways.....

2nd round has hits and misses.. these make up 4/17 (23.5%) of the picks.

3rd round has hits and misses.. these make up 9/17 (53%) of the picks, more than twice that of 1st and 2nd rounders



FYI, 4th round has been very good to this team





2019 (Impossible to make judgements on this draft class since most were not thrown into a starting role)

1. N'Keal Harry - We'll see real soon, but rookie WRs get some benefit of doubt.

2.Joejuan Willams - Impossible to tell, our secondary is absolutely incredible.. he has no way of cracking into lineup without a major injury to a starter. We're very fortunate to be able to develop him behind an elite secondary

3a. Chase Winovich - He's having a great rookie year as a role player on defense.

3b. Damien Harris - Has too many veterans in front of him, basically a redshirt year for him.

3c. Yodny Cajuste - IR, i think Dante said this was essentially a redshirt year for him too.. or was that another rookie?

2018 (hit on both 1st rounders as far as talented players.. Wynn needs to get/stay healthy)

1a. Isaiah Wynn - Too early, very talented but has not been healthy to show it on field

1b. Sony Michel - This was certainly not a miss/poor pick. He directly contributed to a SB his rookie year.

2. Duke Dawson - Bust

2017 (I don't even really count this draft, two mid-late 3rd rounders that didnt pan out isn't a shocker)

3a. Derek Rivers - Bust, often injured and never really contributed.. but this was a mid 3rd rounder, so....

3b. Antonio Garcia - Bust, non-football injury prevented him from ever seeing the field. Risk/reward chance that is expected in late 3rd round.

2016 (Would have to weight this year differently, since they had no 1st rounder and three 3rd rounders)

2. Cyrus Jones - Bust, had potential as PR but fumbled a lot. Other than Asante Samuel, Eugene Wilson and Patrick Chung, Belichick has a pretty terrible track record with DBs in round 2

3a. Joe Thuney - Insanely good pick... elite left guard that has started every single game I think.

3. Jacoby Brissett - Good pick, would have been worth keeping around to develop but we traded him for Philip Dorsett. Colts are paying him $20+ million a year now to be their starter and he's playing well.

3c. Vincent Valentine - Bust pick, but not shocking for the last pick in 3rd round

2015 (This looks like a bad draft in the first 3 rounds, but this was a great draft as a whole)

1. Malcolm Brown - He was a solid pick, and was a starter on our team for 4-5 years. Didn't quite reach the potential we had hoped he would, but he was not by any stretch of the imagination a bad/bust pick

2. Jordan Richards - God have mercy on us all.

3. Geneo Grissom - JAG... not a bust tho because he contributed for many years

 

[maust]

Maximizing his roster to take advantage of a variety of opponents over the course of the season.

Very well put. I would add utilizing ongoing extensive self scouting as a tool for recognizing where the value is, and isn't, as being intrinsic to that

 

[Zuma]

I'm just not seeing it.

2017 was the worst draft by far, but thats not a fair comparison because they only had two 3rd rounders that year that were middle and end of the round. Its unreasonable to expect hits on late 3rd rounders, the percentages drop significantly in the 2nd round. You're fortunate to even get a solid role player in round 3

They didn't miss on any 1st rounders, mostly because they either had them stolen from the league or traded 1 for Cooks, who helped get us to a Superbowl and then proceeded to get KO'd by being an idiot in the 1st quarter... but anyways.....

2nd round has hits and misses

3rd round has hits and misses..



4th round has been very good to this team



2019 (Impossible to make judgements on this draft class since most were not thrown into a starting role)

1. N'Keal Harry - We'll see real soon, but rookie WRs get some benefit of doubt.

2.Joejuan Willams - Impossible to tell, our secondary is absolutely incredible.. he has no way of cracking into lineup without a major injury to a starter.

3a. Chase Winovich - He's having a great rookie year as a role player on defense.

3b. Damien Harris - Has too many veterans in front of him, basically a redshirt year for him.

3c. Yodny Cajuste - IR, i think Dante said this was essentially a redshirt year for him too.. or was that another rookie?

2018 (hit on both 1st rounders as far as talented players.. Wynn needs to get/stay healthy)

1a. Isaiah Wynn - Too early, very talented but has not been healthy to show it on field

1b. Sony Michel - This was certainly not a miss/poor pick. He directly contributed to a SB his rookie year.

2. Duke Dawson - Bust

2017 (I don't even really count this draft, two mid-late 3rd rounders that didnt pan out isn't a shocker)

3a. Derek Rivers - Bust, often injured and never really contributed.. but this was a mid 3rd rounder, so....

3b. Antonio Garcia - Bust, non-football injury prevented him from ever seeing the field. Risk/reward chance that is expected in late 3rd round.

2016 (Would have to weight this year differently, since they had no 1st rounder and three 3rd rounders)

2. Cyrus Jones - Bust, had potential as PR but fumbled a lot. Other than Asante Samuel, Eugene Wilson and Patrick Chung, Belichick has a pretty terrible track record with DBs in round 2

3a. Joe Thuney - Insanely good pick... elite left guard that has started every single game I think.

3. Jacoby Brissett - Good pick, would have been worth keeping around to develop but we traded him for Philip Dorsett. Colts are paying him $20+ million a year now to be their starter and he's playing well.

3c. Vincent Valentine - Bust pick, but not shocking for the last pick in 3rd round

2015 (This looks like a bad draft in the first 3 rounds, but this was a great draft as a whole)

1. Malcolm Brown - He was a solid pick, and was a starter on our team for 4-5 years. Didn't quite reach the potential we had hoped he would, but he was not by any stretch of the imagination a bad/bust pick

2. Jordan Richards - God have mercy on us all.

3. Geneo Grissom - JAG... not a bust tho because he contributed for many years

Vincent Valentine: I thought he was a solid backup in 2016...but that was it.

 

[Deus Irae]

Maximizing his roster to take advantage of a variety of opponents over the course of the season.

Thanks for responding. I'd note that your response is an umbrella claim which is really much more about BB the coach than about BB the GM. I'm talking GM specifics. What, specifically, is BB's greatest strength as a GM? Drafting/Contract negotiations/Player retention/etc...

 

[Wordsmyth]

This post below had 5 disagreements.

...that you're cherry-picking phrases to lend credence to your ridiculous arguments.






You were saying....

 

[shmessy]

A question for those homers who are losing their minds in this thread (Sane people are also welcome to respond, but I'm looking to see what the insane BB posse uses for logic):


What is Belichick's biggest strength as a GM?

Not sure why you have to resort to namecalling in a discussion where people are simply exchanging differing opinions. This is actually a very good discussion. It's too bad you feel a need to inject your personal baggage.

Regarding your question, I think Icy Patriot hit the nail on the head.
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[TheRainMaker]

Asante Samuel

He was a 4th rounder.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Vincent Valentine: I thought he was a solid backup in 2016...but that was it.

I thought i remembered him having a few spurts of production, but ultimately never panned out.. he was a 3rd rounder tho, so certainly not expecting a hall of famer

 

[IcyPatriot]

Thanks for responding. I'd note that your response is an umbrella claim which is really much more about BB the coach than about BB the GM. I'm talking GM specifics. What, specifically, is BB's greatest strength as a GM? Drafting/Contract negotiations/Player retention/etc...

BB the GM is excellent at identifying where the game is headed so that he can acquire players to take advantages of those trends. No easy task in the salary cap era. Many teams just load up on doing what they do and hoping that to be good enough.

Not sure he is great at any of the 'Drafting/Contract negotiations/Player retention/etc.' you list - but he is excellent at combining them together and working the mid and lower 3rd of the roster to exploit weaknesses in others.

Sure Brady has covered up some of his weaknesses ... that can be said.

However - I think he knows Brady covers his weaknesses which allows him to gamble on player acquisition more than others. Not sure other coaches realize how to exploit their great players to shore up weaknesses that exist on their team.

I also think he is not vain in protecting any perceived reputation.
He moves on from his mistakes like they never existed in the first place ... and quickly.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

He was a 4th rounder.

Even more reason for BB to hire someone to smack him in the face whenever he thinks about going DB round 2

For some reason I thought he was 2nd, maybe i was confusing him with Wilson. Thank you for pointing that out!

 

[203Pat]

The Patriots have a historically good defensive backfield. The pick used on a player who isn't good enough to unseat one of those great corners is a bad pick. That pick could have gone to pick another wide receiver, or a kicker or whomever. However, in my mind, it doesn't make them a bust. Especially, if that player ends up on another NFL team. I also don't consider Jacoby B a bust. He was picked and only played in two games for us. He was not good enough to unseat Tom Brady, and he was traded away. Was he a bad pick? We got more for him then we did for Duke, but we still traded him away because we didn't need him.

Jacoby was a bad pick but not a bad player. He definitely isn't a bust as he is now a solid starting QB in the league. Jacoby is also a different story because of the position he plays. Quarterback is far different from defensive back as far as seeing reps. Jacoby had zero chance of beating out Brady and a very slim chance of beating out Jimmy. I still don't really get the whole Jacoby situation. Did they draft him because Brady would be suspended and wanted a backup for Jimmy? Did they draft him because they thought he could develop into an eventual starter because they knew they wouldn't keep Jimmy? Either way I don't know if they would've made the trade for Dorsett if they knew he would develop the way he has.

That being said, Dawson had a much better chance to get some reps especially since he allegedly was able to play in both the corner and safety spot. He couldn't beat out an UDFA in Keion Crossen when he got activated from IR and never even sniffed the active roster on a secondary that was nowhere near as good as this one.

 

[203Pat]

...that you're cherry-picking phrases to lend credence to your ridiculous arguments.

I'm cherry picking? You said straw man. I posted actual people defending bad picks. Keep up.

 

[203Pat]

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