Texans ARE DUMB - Trade for Laremy Tunsil and Kenny Stills

[RobertWeathers]

What they did makes them a better team than they were the day before but they paid way too much.
I mean you could go buy a house worth a million dollars and you improved where you live, but if you paid 3 million for it, that would be stupid.
In this case they paid 3 mill for a million dollar house, a broken down Ford Taurus and some broken furniture.

Is Stills the Taurus or the furniture?

 

[Ring 6]

Is Stills the Taurus or the furniture?

The Taurus. The one the kid threw up in in the back seat and you could never get the smell out of.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Draft capital is far more important to that organization than how they play this year.
They were not a threat to the patriots this year, so draft capital is far more important with respect to their improving with respect to the patriots.

In other words if the dolphins could trade 2 wins this year for 5 in 2022 that’s a positive move for them.

Maybe. Drafts are inherently a crapshoot. The Jets had 12 selections in 2014 with very little to show for it.

 

[Ring 6]

Maybe. Drafts are inherently a crapshoot. The Jets had 12 selections in 2014 with very little to show for it.

True but it still helps the dolphins because it gives them a better chance to improve and they weren’t going to win this year anyway.
I’m not saying every team would be smart to dump players now for draft picks later but ones that have no prayer of winning certainly are smart to.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

True but it still helps the dolphins because it gives them a better chance to improve and they weren’t going to win this year anyway.
I’m not saying every team would be smart to dump players now for draft picks later but ones that have no prayer of winning certainly are smart to.

They now should be a cakewalk for us this season and, even if they use the future draft capital intelligently, they're still years away from being a problem for us.

I think I'm okay with this trade.

 

[Froob]

I think if you subtract a first and downgrade the second to a third you walk away feeling like you gave up a lot but least you filled two big needs. But two first and a second? Damn. Tunsil and Stills will help though for sure.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Maybe. Drafts are inherently a crapshoot. The Jets had 12 selections in 2014 with very little to show for it.

To be fair, they are the JETEs.....
Looks like Flores is taking the Pats approach of accumulating draft capital and merging it with Browns approach of selling off assets for future drafts in the hope of getting better quickly. Browns had multiples in rounds 1,2,3 last year and same this year ( but no first rounders)....

IIRC, Pats should have 12 picks next year
round 1
round 2
round 3 ( 3 picks with 2 being comp picks)
round 4
round 6 ( 3 picks w 2 being comp picks)
round 7 ( 3 picks)

Patriots' projected haul of 2020 NFL Draft picks still impressive after latest trades

 

[Wheelman]

Wow.

I'm so glad Clowney took this stance. I hope it deters teams from using the franchise tag in the future just to get some trade value out of them. This kinda backfired on them despite getting a 3rd round pick.

 

[patfanken]

True but it still helps the dolphins because it gives them a better chance to improve and they weren’t going to win this year anyway.
I’m not saying every team would be smart to dump players now for draft picks later but ones that have no prayer of winning certainly are smart to.

In BOB"s defense, he is in a desperate situation. He has a pretty good team. He has a good QB. He was in desperate need of a LT to solidify an already shaky OL. Here's the thing. A good PLAYER is far better than a good DRAFT pick.

You essentially know what you have in the good player. The draft pick on the other hand is NEVER a sure thing, as we see so often. So getting a top end LT and a quality WR is what BOB needs to keep his job. And consider this. The Texans might not have a first next year, but they WILL have more cap space than most teams. Perhaps they will get their first round talent next season through FA. Its an option. Just a thought.

IIRC, true elite talent occurs only in the top 9 (according to the "experts"). Some years its as few as 5. "First round" talent runs from there to 17-20, depending on the year. After that from around 22-44 the"talent" level isn't really different (again according to the experts). So if you give any credence to this the Pats have gotten to pick just 3 first round talents in the last 20 years (Seymour, Mayo, and Solder) And they haven't had a shot at an "elite" talent in 2 decades.

Now this isn't to say the Pats haven't gotten "good players" in the first round. But they've also got "good players" in other rounds as well. I mean when you look on it, the Pats are built on "good players" rather than elite ones. Last year's team was a perfect example. One could argue that Brady was just a "good QB" last season, and not elite. Gronk certainly wasn't. In fact the only real "elite" player was Gilmore. Everyone else was "good". But, unlike basketball, that can work in football That's the beauty of the game, because the SUM can be greater than the individual parts. (and I never miss a chance to use that phrase, in case you haven't noticed )

Not saying that Miami did get a good deal based on their situation. It's just that if you look at it in a different way, the Texans got what they needed for THEIR situation

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

To be fair, they are the JETEs.....
Looks like Flores is taking the Pats approach of accumulating draft capital and merging it with Browns approach of selling off assets for future drafts in the hope of getting better quickly. Browns had multiples in rounds 1,2,3 last year and same this year ( but no first rounders)....

IIRC, Pats should have 12 picks next year
round 1
round 2
round 3 ( 3 picks with 2 being comp picks)
round 4
round 6 ( 3 picks w 2 being comp picks)
round 7 ( 3 picks)

Patriots' projected haul of 2020 NFL Draft picks still impressive after latest trades

I think it goes without saying we're in much better shape than Miami. We just need a couple of these picks to work out.

If Stidham is really the goods, I think we'll have the advantage over the rest in a post-Brady AFCE.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I know drafts are a crapshoot, but the beauty part is, so is talent evaluation of vets, just less so.

Watching this thread, I keep thinking of our tearing-out-the-hair scenario when we sent Jimmy G to San Fran. OMG, we got WHAT for him??? A fifth or something? I mean, he was guaranteed to be the next Tom Brady, if not better, everybody knew it, blah blah blah. He still might have another act in him, mind you, but the buckets of digital ink spilled on who reamed who on that deal just don't look as black and white anymore.

I dunno, just feeling like being contrarian, I mean, that is a LOT of draft capital LOL... it tells us all a lot about the relative rarity of a great runningback for example, and a can't miss (sic) LT. (cf. the deal that brought Ricky Williams to the Australian Outback I mean Miami I mean New Orleans... the whole draft for Ricky Williams before he played a down, right? Then two 1s and a 4 from Miami to New Orleans... do we see that for running backs anymore?)

Also cf. the Jimmy G. situation. The so-called "skill" positions are the ones you think are running the game, the O-line, especially the LT, are the ones you'll trade a whole draft for now.

Cherry picking or trend convergence?

 

[Kontradiction]

How?

Division opponent is weakened.

Conference challenger is better with offensive passing game (which is our defensive strength) but weaker defensively and has lost ability to replenish roster with high-pick talent.

They’re weakened for now and that was the plan. They’re pretty much in for tanking this season anyway and they were able to haul in two extra first rounders in the next two years. They can rebuild themselves on the fly especially considering their own firsts will be low enough to be in the range of the top QBs in the draft this year and next year. Hopefully they miss but their re-start is going off beautifully right now. The Texans way overpaid.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

I’d imagine Fitz’s leash will be pretty short. Dolphins need to find out what they have in Rosen at some point.

 

[Bill Lee]

Is Stills the Taurus or the furniture?

He's the "Love the one you're with" guy.

Sorry for planting the earworm.

Actually, I'm not sorry, but I'm sorry that I'm not sorry.

In BOB"s defense, he is in a desperate situation. He has a pretty good team. He has a good QB. He was in desperate need of a LT to solidify an already shaky OL. Here's the thing. A good PLAYER is far better than a good DRAFT pick.

You essentially know what you have in the good player. The draft pick on the other hand is NEVER a sure thing, as we see so often. So getting a top end LT and a quality WR is what BOB needs to keep his job. And consider this. The Texans might not have a first next year, but they WILL have more cap space than most teams. Perhaps they will get their first round talent next season through FA. Its an option. Just a thought.

IIRC, true elite talent occurs only in the top 9 (according to the "experts"). Some years its as few as 5. "First round" talent runs from there to 17-20, depending on the year. After that from around 22-44 the"talent" level isn't really different (again according to the experts). So if you give any credence to this the Pats have gotten to pick just 3 first round talents in the last 20 years (Seymour, Mayo, and Solder) And they haven't had a shot at an "elite" talent in 2 decades.

Now this isn't to say the Pats haven't gotten "good players" in the first round. But they've also got "good players" in other rounds as well. I mean when you look on it, the Pats are built on "good players" rather than elite ones. Last year's team was a perfect example. One could argue that Brady was just a "good QB" last season, and not elite. Gronk certainly wasn't. In fact the only real "elite" player was Gilmore. Everyone else was "good". But, unlike basketball, that can work in football That's the beauty of the game, because the SUM can be greater than the individual parts. (and I never miss a chance to use that phrase, in case you haven't noticed )

Not saying that Miami did get a good deal based on their situation. It's just that if you look at it in a different way, the Texans got what they needed for THEIR situation

TL;DR: It's better to squander draft capital on pro players with track records than to get fired and have someone else squander that draft capital.

The fly in the ointment is that the same BOB just traded Clowney for the proverbial bag of balls when he could have just played hard ball and maybe gotten him to deal with the fact he was stuck on the Texans for one more season and needed to show something on the field to get his next contract. I guess BOB thought he was too disruptive to keep.

But overall I can see why BOB did what he did. I agree draft capital is overvalued and as you say they have a lot of cap room for next year's FA class. BOB's mission is to keep his job long enough to be able to spend up that cap room. Texans fans were screaming "Do something!" and BOB did something.

 

[Ring 6]

[

In BOB"s defense, he is in a desperate situation. He has a pretty good team. He has a good QB. He was in desperate need of a LT to solidify an already shaky OL. Here's the thing. A good PLAYER is far better than a good DRAFT pick.

You essentially know what you have in the good player. The draft pick on the other hand is NEVER a sure thing, as we see so often. So getting a top end LT and a quality WR is what BOB needs to keep his job. And consider this. The Texans might not have a first next year, but they WILL have more cap space than most teams. Perhaps they will get their first round talent next season through FA. Its an option. Just a thought.

IIRC, true elite talent occurs only in the top 9 (according to the "experts"). Some years its as few as 5. "First round" talent runs from there to 17-20, depending on the year. After that from around 22-44 the"talent" level isn't really different (again according to the experts). So if you give any credence to this the Pats have gotten to pick just 3 first round talents in the last 20 years (Seymour, Mayo, and Solder) And they haven't had a shot at an "elite" talent in 2 decades.

Now this isn't to say the Pats haven't gotten "good players" in the first round. But they've also got "good players" in other rounds as well. I mean when you look on it, the Pats are built on "good players" rather than elite ones. Last year's team was a perfect example. One could argue that Brady was just a "good QB" last season, and not elite. Gronk certainly wasn't. In fact the only real "elite" player was Gilmore. Everyone else was "good". But, unlike basketball, that can work in football That's the beauty of the game, because the SUM can be greater than the individual parts. (and I never miss a chance to use that phrase, in case you haven't noticed )

Not saying that Miami did get a good deal based on their situation. It's just that if you look at it in a different way, the Texans got what they needed for THEIR situation

I get all that but the price was really steep.
The dolphins were probably cutting stills.
Miami was just as desperate to unload players.
A 1 and a 4 would have been fair.
Whether it was just a horrible trade negotiation or whether it’s the result if poor management up until now backing them into a corner where they made 2 terrible trades at the last minute is debatable but it’s bad management either way.
As I said the trade made them a better team but the cost was out of line.

 

[patfanken]

[

I get all that but the price was really steep.
The dolphins were probably cutting stills.
Miami was just as desperate to unload players.
A 1 and a 4 would have been fair.
Whether it was just a horrible trade negotiation or whether it’s the result if poor management up until now backing them into a corner where they made 2 terrible trades at the last minute is debatable but it’s bad management either way.
As I said the trade made them a better team but the cost was out of line.

I don't disagree that the cost WAS high. I think a first next year and a 2nd the year after would have been fair with the bump being the Texan's time urgency but that's just nitpicking.

I disagree that Stills would have been cut. He's too talented. Stills is a solid #2 on any team, and its just what Houston needed. IIRC they have some WR's hurt right now.

So in the end a good deal is when both teams are happy with what they got. On the surface Miami got the better of the deal because 2019 is already a throwaway season for them. But I don't think the gap is as big as its being represented.

Now the Seattle deal is another story. That was simply poorly managed

 

[Ring 6]

I don't disagree that the cost WAS high. I think a first next year and a 2nd the year after would have been fair with the bump being the Texan's time urgency but that's just nitpicking.

I disagree that Stills would have been cut. He's too talented. Stills is a solid #2 on any team, and its just what Houston needed. IIRC they have some WR's hurt right now.

So in the end a good deal is when both teams are happy with what they got. On the surface Miami got the better of the deal because 2019 is already a throwaway season for them. But I don't think the gap is as big as its being represented.

Now the Seattle deal is another story. That was simply poorly managed

We disagree on stills.
He wasn’t okaying for Flores. No way.
Flores trolled his media comments with practice music and stills shot back in the media. The guys a turd.
And no he isn’t a good #2 WR. In his last 12 games he has had over 40 receiving yards once.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Glad to see there are still Hershel Walker heists alive and well in todays day and age. Not quite the magnitude but man, wtf?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I’d now take Miami’s future over the Jets or Bills. I think Rosen is the only one of those three who has a chance to be successful. Allen is basically a running back with a totally erratic cannon arm, and Darnold may be okay but is better suited for the 1980s with his build and style. Rosen may very well be a bust but still has the ideal athleticism and pocket style game that can succeed. It’s all about his confidence, coaching, and willingness to learn at this point. I imagine Rosen is a lot like Rodgers as a raw rookie; starting him day 1 in AZ was a terrible idea.

If he pans out, then two additional first round picks? They would be in good position for a total turnaround.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Florio nails it...recommended reading:

Texans “flatter” management structure falls flat on its face

Key Points:

• The Texams would have received a third-round comp pick for Clowney had they just not franchised him to begin with, and may have received one had they just rescinded the tag. They also could have traded him before July 15th which would have made his value much higher, as now he can not be extended by an interested team. Instead they are paying half his 2019 salary and basically had to take on a couple of questionable contracts (Mingo was likely to be cut anyway.) All in all the Clowney trade is absurdly bad and makes no sense.

• Beyond the massive overpay for Tunsil, they don't even have a long-term contract him, so there's a chance he could cost two first as a rental player. Tunsil now has massive leverage in negotiating a long-term deal.

• The organization is basically a laughing stock for these two horrible trades yesterday. Florio believes Easterby, not O'Brien, may be the impetus behind these trades.

• In a "poetic justice" type of result, it seems as though their clumsy courting of Caserio is actually going to be their downfall. They naively thought they'd just be able to take a GM from another organization and let go of their own GM. Now that there's no one there, they've destroyed their future and no GM would want the job any more.

The league is buzzing about the level of ineptitude that these deals demonstrate. But few are surprised. The General Manager is gone, the coach (who has shown that he is a very good coach) isn’t a personnel specialist, and the guy who has finagled a path from chaplain to inner circle lacks the capacity to even begin to understand how the job is supposed to work.

Cal McNair boasted in July that the team will have “flatter organization with a faster management style” and that the “organization is totally re-energized with a team-based approach and new leadership based on sub programs with each sub program being fully optimized as a goal.” It was a confusing talking point when it was articulated by McNair, and it’s more confusing now.

Given the long-term impact of Saturday’s moves (along with the lingering presence of Easterby), it will be incredibly difficult for the Texans to hire the kind of G.M. they need in 2020. Whoever that G.M. is will surely have a chance to be a G.M. somewhere else next year, or to wait for another opportunity in 2021.