The Ryan Izzo makes the 53 thread.

[Nunchucks]

This is clearly a decision that Belichick will make. I have no idea whether Izzo is close enough to push Allen off the roster, but it certainly worth speculating.

 

[luuked]

How many surprises do you need to not answer in this arrogant tone that you know all?

Either you learn or you don't but at some point being an ignorant dink will just make people stop trying to explain things to you.

You clearly have not much of an idea how to evaluate -- at the very least -- the TE position. So maybe don't pull out the arrogance card to people that know more than you do and trying to give you pointers.

I don't get the comparison. Hogan is a starting WR and your #1 option opening day, Gilmore is your shutdown corner, while Mason is an OL. Dwayne Allen is a backup TE who makes more than 2 out of the three.

Allen is not a backup TE but someone who has been used mostly in the run game because of his great blocking skills. There is nothing backup about him. He will not be used ever to sub in for Gronk. He is as much a backup as James White is a backup RB. Different roles.

The reason I mentioned those players is because the primary job of a TE is blocking and only after that comes receiving. And Allen is damn good at it. If you can't block you are not a TE but a big slot receiver.

What is funny is that you know the Pats think the cap hit is not an issue. How does anyone know what the Pats are thinking? Have you been around this team for more than ten minutes?

Somehow the fact that they can cut bait with no guarantees means to you that they are more likely to keep Allen. That flexibility may be what BB and Caserio might like. Nice spin.

Because you only need to think the scenario through to come to the conclusion. The 5m charge clearly did not prevent them from any moves so far otherwise it would have been adressed already. So it literally has not been an issue so far. And I have outlined to you in the previous post why it will also not be an issue in the future.

I have been around this team long enough to understand situations like this. The entire thing is no coincidence because there is a track record of this team making exactly this move over and over again. Look at the two pay cuts Amendola took and you will realize how conveniently similar the scenario is. This is how they operate and why by design they made sure Allen would have no guarantees until after camp. It is called leverage.

If for whatever ludicrous reason Allen's agent thinks he can get more from a FA deal in September than whatever the Pats will offer then he might get cut. But that would be a pretty ridiculous idea for any sane agent.

None of this has to so with how Mankins was traded or Collins was traded. You have strayed so far its not even apples and oranges but apples and space shuttles.


Finally, Izzo will be lucky if he is still in this league by September. As any 7th round player would be. He might make the PS and use this year to get his body to NFL level, understand the protection schemes, work on his blocking technique and also get at least a rudimentary grasp of the offensive playbook. Then in a year if he develops properly he might have a shot at the blocking TE spot.

 

[maineman209]

The backup TE spots have to be more competitive than people think.

Isn't the team mantra versatility? Does Dwayne Allen do anything, but block? Can he play special teams? For many suggesting his cap hit might lead the team in another direction is unthinkable. One poster listed the comment as "funny."

Jacob Hollister has four career catches for 42 yards and I haven't seen one roster that does not have him listed. Is his spot so secure?

This should be a thread, but instead the title should be, "Tight End position - who other than Gronk is safe?"

Posters are quick to cut Eric Rowe or Jason McCourty, and keep one of their binky CBs. I thought Ryan Izzo looked better than all undrafted CBs in the actual game. And I think the current candidates at backup TE position are thinner than backup CB.

Why not Ryan Izzo?

It's not particularly accurate to think of the TEs not named Gronk exclusively as "backups". Within the Pats offensive schemes, there are specific roles for multiple TEs that, when filled, allow certain types/sets of plays (passing, running, misdirection) to be used. So, it's more about which players can consistently execute what aspects of which roles. Versatility definitely has value, but so does consistent execution at a high level.

Being able to run-block consistently at a very high level is more critical to the Pats offense, especially to the run game, than most fans understand (thanks mostly to the media), so it tends to be undervalued. Allen is a very, very good blocker. Even if he's not a great route-runner and doesn't have great hands, when he does go out on a pass route (or even lines up wide, like Develin does sometimes), a defense still needs to devote some resource to covering him. I'm sure that doesn't seem like much direct, tangible value, but its tactical/strategic value within the scheme and playbook may be more than we know.

Speaking of "value", It seems to me that there's really only one relevant question regarding Allen's cap hit: "Can the Pats afford him?" Until something else cap-related changes, the answer is, "yes." At this point, his cap hit is a red herring in any discussion of his on-field tactical/strategic value relative to other roster candidates.

WRT any "thinness" of current roster candidates at the TE position versus the CB position, that's relative to the number of roster spot required to be filled.
--- There are 2 CBs on the field for 100% of the defensive snaps (roughly 1,060 last season). That's not optional. There was also a third CB on for +/- 50% of the defensive snaps, so, a total of about 2,650 non-optional snaps that need to be covered (and "backed up" with, hopefully, duplicate quality). There are currently 10 candidates competing for five or six roster spots.
--- TE use is technically optional. Last season, Gronk played about 80% of all offensive snaps, and Allen played about 42% (1,380 snaps total for the two). Hollister/Bennett accounted for 110 snaps total (less than 10% of all offensive snaps). There are currently five candidates on the roster who are competing for 2-3 roster spots.

 

[DaBruinz]

If Izzo can run-block and pass-block, say, 75% as well as Allen, and catch something like 16 of 24 targets for 120-140 yds, Allen could be trade bait.

We know that the Chargers are hemorrhaging at TE and probably would love to have Allen even with the price tag he has..

 

[Tony2046]

No. Why does that matter? We are talking about the blocking TE2

Then you recognize that there's a difference between Gronk and Allen's blocking ability.

Some would demonstrate that difference by using percentages.

 

[Ring 6]

Then you recognize that there's a difference between Gronk and Allen's blocking ability.

Some would demonstrate that difference by using percentages.

And that would be ridiculous.
How can you demonstrate a difference mathematically when there is no way to quantify the difference?

 

[Tony2046]

And that would be ridiculous.
How can you demonstrate a difference mathematically when there is no way to quantify the difference?

Not ridiculous if you understand the context in which it was meant.

How would describe the difference between Gronk and Allen's blocking ability?

 

[Ring 6]

Not ridiculous if you understand the context in which it was meant.

How would describe the difference between Gronk and Allen's blocking ability?

The context was trying to describe the difference between 2 players ability mathematically. That is wrong.
Gronk may be the best blocking TE in the NFL. He is ridiculously strong and agile and can block bigger DL as well as quicker edge players and even dbs.
Allen is a very good blocker but doesn’t have gronks physical gifts so he needs to be better with technique and will struggle more against higher end strength or quickness guys.

 

[Tony2046]

The context was trying to describe the difference between 2 players ability mathematically. That is wrong.
Gronk may be the best blocking TE in the NFL. He is ridiculously strong and agile and can block bigger DL as well as quicker edge players and even dbs.
Allen is a very good blocker but doesn’t have gronks physical gifts so he needs to be better with technique and will struggle more against higher end strength or quickness guys.

So would you accept a #2 TE with a lesser blocking ability but a greater catching ability than Allen ?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Jacob Hollister has four career catches for 42 yards and I haven't seen one roster that does not have him listed. Is his spot so secure?

I think that's largely because everyone has cited him as making a big jump from year 1 to year 2, including BB and TB12.

 

[Ring 6]

So would you accept a #2 TE with a lesser blocking ability but a greater catching ability than Allen ?

That’s not what I said is it.
I said blocking TE is a real position in our offense and considering Hollister will also be game day active because he is a core special teamer.
I’m not sure what you are driving at, how this has anything to do with Izzo, or your argument that blocking ability can be expressed mathematically. Seems like you are just treading water here.

 

[Tony2046]

That’s not what I said is it.
I said blocking TE is a real position in our offense and considering Hollister will also be game day active because he is a core special teamer.
I’m not sure what you are driving at, how this has anything to do with Izzo, or your argument that blocking ability can be expressed mathematically. Seems like you are just treading water here.

I didn't say you said it. It was a question.

Would you accept a #2 TE with lesser blocking ability but greater catching ability than Allen?

 

[Ring 6]

I didn't say you said it. It was a question.

Would you accept a #2 TE with lesser blocking ability but greater catching ability than Allen?

I answered it.

 

[Tony2046]

I answered it.

So would you accept Izzo and Hollister in the same scenario?

 

[Ring 6]

So would you accept Izzo and Hollister in the same scenario?

No. Allen is a better option. Why do you insist on implying I agree with something I do not?

 

[TheRazorsEdge]

Izzo vs Hollister is the battle. Allen is far to valuable to the run game as a blocker to even consider swapping with Izzo (this is perspective from the nose bleeds..im not in the gym ..meetings..practices to know first hand) Hollister edges him out due to experience. If Izzo works his butt off and can contribute on special teams he MIGHT..and thats a huge MIGHT sneak on.

Chances are hes a PS player who we never really hear from again.

 

[Tony2046]

No. Allen is a better option. Why do you insist on implying I agree with something I do not?

I'm not. Just asking you a question and from your answers I gather you would agree with the following.

Izzo < Allen < Gronk.

Allen + Hollister Gronk.

Allen + Hollister > Izzo + Hollister


Correct?

 

[Brick27]

I’d really only see this as coming to fruition if Bill saw Izzo as a complete tight end. That’s also the only way I could see Izzo making it over Hollister. Obviously that seems unlikely to say the least.

The TE2 vs. TE3 at the present is not a hierarchy but instead a competition for two roles. The reason being of course is that there isn’t a clear multi-dimensional backup tight end on the roster.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not. Just asking you a question and from your answers I gather you would agree with the following.

Izzo < Allen < Gronk.

Yes

Allen + Hollister Gronk.

You are just being stupid now.

Allen + Hollister > Izzo + Hollister

Yes

 

[Tony2046]

Yes

You are just being stupid now.

Yes

So you agree with 66.7% of my argument. That's a win.