Malcolm Mitchell waived

[Uptown]

 

[maineman209]

I’ll take your word for it, but they’ve also drafted many good/superstar receivers in Burress, Holmes, Wallace, E Sanders, and Brown. Schuster is also looking great. Arguably all five of those guys were better than Branch from a real simple look (though more on that in next paragraph), the Patriots best receiver. There are no similarities in any way...the Steelers have been light years ahead when it comes to success rate, possibly the #1/#32 teams, even if the Steelers have made more picks. Your facts may be true, but it just means the Patriots need to draft about six consecutive home run picks at WR for the teams to be even. How likely is that?

I’ve already made my thoughts known in my last post, though, which is I suspect the Steelers “success” with these players has a lot to do with simpler schemes and has a lot of drawback, almost like an unintuitive sabermetric look at the situation. Their offense is rarely elite and there are problems with players that don’t have brains and don’t sacrifice for the good of the team. Outside of Brown - who is a huge diva -not one of those other star players - Burress, Holmes, Wallace, or Sanders - was re-upped after their rookie contracts. Leads me to believe they are more replaceable within that offense than the common fan would believe.

I definitely agree with you about the Steelers' offense being simpler and, thus, easier to draft for.

But, again, during BB's tenure with the Pats, the Steelers have probably drafted more WRs in rounds 1-3 than BB has drafted in total. The Steelers have probably drafted more busts than BB has drafted in total. The Steelers have just drafted more WRs than BB has, so, they'd have to be truly awful at it to NOT have had more successes than BB has. If folks just count the Steelers' successes against BB's successes, of course BB is going to come out looking like he sucks at it.

I have relatives who purchase a shiny-new SUV every 3-4 years. I drive a 12-year-old, previously-owned pick-up (I'm a gardener, so it fits what I do) - my second vehicle purchase in a couple decades . They've owned a lot more great-looking, comfortable, feature-laden vehicles than I have. They must be better at buying them than I am.

 

[long distance]

good

 

[captain stone]

...The Steelers have probably drafted more busts [at WR] than BB has drafted in total...

Examples?

 

[Ring 6]

Examples?

Demarcus acres
Sammy Coates
Dri archer
Martavis Bryant
Marcus Wheaton
Justin brown
Toney Clemons
Limas sweed

That’s 9 in 10 years.

 

[maineman209]

Examples?

DeMarcus Ayers - 2016, 7th
Sammie Coates - 2015, 3rd
Dri Archer - 2014, 3rd
Marcus Wheaton - 2013, 3rd
Justin Brown - 2013, 6th
Toney Clemons - 2012, 7th
Limas Sweed - 2008, 2nd
Dallas Baker - 2007, 7th
Willie Reid - 2006, 3rd
Fred Gibson - 2005, 4th
Lee Mays - 2002, 6th
Chris Taylor - 2001, 7th
Danny Farmer - 2000, 4th

That's 13.

BB has drafted 14 total WRs for the Pats, including Berrios.

BTW - took about 5 minutes on pro-football-reference to look that up.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Wasn’t Dri Archer a rb?

 

[maineman209]

Wasn’t Dri Archer a rb?

RB/WR in college. WR was apparently what the Steelers put on the card that they sent up to the podium (IOW, "drafted as"). Neither Slater nor Edelman were WRs in college.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

RB/WR in college. WR was apparently what the Steelers put on the card that they sent up to the podium (IOW, "drafted as"). Neither Slater nor Edelman were WRs in college.

Either way he was a bust. To me I wouldn’t count any wr drafted 5th round or later, I don’t see a huge difference in those players and UDFA’s you bring in after the draft. So in the last 10 years were talking sweed, Wheaton (who I had as a pats binky that draft) and Coates.

Compared to us rounds 1-4 off the top of my head (Dobson, Boyce, Taylor price, Tate). Honestly success rate between both teams isn’t too far off.

 

[maineman209]

Honestly success rate between both teams isn’t too far off.

Which was my original point.

And, once you start making distinctions about what rounds guys were drafted in or what their real positions are, you have to deduct from both sides of the equation.

For instance, BB hasn't drafted a WR in the first. So, what's PIT's success rate like just counting rounds 2-4? I'm sure that some of those "WRs" the Steelers drafted were slated to be returners more than WR. Then, on the Pats' side, there's at least Tate and PK Sam that need to be deducted.

It's just not as simple as saying, "The Steelers have had more hits among the WRs they've drafted, and are, therefore, more successful at drafting WRs."

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Just counting 2-4? Juju looks like a hit, Martavis- he’s a bonehead but 2 50 catch seasons and defenses had to account for his speed, I can’t label him a bust since he was productive for them. Misses- obviously sweed, Wheaton, Coates. Not for certain but I want to say the only recent wr pitt drafted first round was Holmes who was a hit.

For us the only 2nd round hit to my knowledge was branch. Missed chad Jackson, bethel j, Dobson Boyce and price.

 

[captain stone]

DeMarcus Ayers - 2016, 7th
Sammie Coates - 2015, 3rd
Dri Archer - 2014, 3rd
Marcus Wheaton - 2013, 3rd
Justin Brown - 2013, 6th
Toney Clemons - 2012, 7th
Limas Sweed - 2008, 2nd
Dallas Baker - 2007, 7th
Willie Reid - 2006, 3rd
Fred Gibson - 2005, 4th
Lee Mays - 2002, 6th
Chris Taylor - 2001, 7th
Danny Farmer - 2000, 4th

That's 13.

BB has drafted 14 total WRs for the Pats, including Berrios.

BTW - took about 5 minutes on pro-football-reference to look that up.

In other words, during the past 10 drafts Sh!tsdirt has whiffed on 3 WRs (not counting Dri Archer) chosen within the top 120 while Bill has whiffed on 5 out of the 6 in the same range.

 

[maineman209]

In other words, during the past 10 drafts Sh!tsdirt has whiffed on 3 WRs (not counting Dri Archer) chosen within the top 120 while Bill has whiffed on 5 out of the 6 in the same range.

Flag on the play.

The claim was the BB has sucked at drafting WRs for the Pats compared to what the Steelers have done. My counter claim was that the Steelers success rate has not been significantly superior than BB's has with the Pats.

BB has been drafting WRs for the Pats since 2000. Selecting one slice of time from that period is moving the goalposts.

Ten yards and loss of down.

 

[fnordcircle]

Sh!tsdirt

Can we try to be a little more mature than our President, at least?

 

[DaBruinz]

DeMarcus Ayers - 2016, 7th
Sammie Coates - 2015, 3rd
Dri Archer - 2014, 3rd
Marcus Wheaton - 2013, 3rd
Justin Brown - 2013, 6th
Toney Clemons - 2012, 7th
Limas Sweed - 2008, 2nd
Dallas Baker - 2007, 7th
Willie Reid - 2006, 3rd
Fred Gibson - 2005, 4th
Lee Mays - 2002, 6th
Chris Taylor - 2001, 7th
Danny Farmer - 2000, 4th

That's 13.

BB has drafted 14 total WRs for the Pats, including Berrios.

BTW - took about 5 minutes on pro-football-reference to look that up.

Maine - I've had this exact same conversation with people and they just keep blinding coming up with the same crap. The last time I did it was in early 2016.

patriots are terrible at drafting wr

Since the above thread, the Steelers have added the following:
2014 - Dri Archer - 3rd round pick (adding for reference purposes since I didn't have in in the above mentioned thread)
2016 - Demarcus Ayers - 7th round pick
2017 - JuJu Smith Schuster - 2nd round (undecided)
2018 - James Washington - 2nd round (undecided)

The Patriots have added:
2016 - Malcolm Mitchell - 4th round
2017 - None -
2018 - Braxton Berrios - 6th round

So, updating the totals since 2001:
The Steelers have drafted 19 WR. The jury is still out on Smith-Schuster, though he is looking promising and it's unfair to rate Washington since he's a rookie.

I previously had them a 6 in 14. Now with Coates, Archer and Ayers busting, it's 6 in 17. 35.3%

The Patriots were at 3 in 10 with Boyce and Johnson considered incomplete. So, that puts them at 3 in 13, with Mitchell going to the negative side. 23%. Definitely not great, but with them not spending the draft capital on High picks the way the Steelers have, The Steelers use more HIGH draft capital (round 1-3) on WRs than the Patriots do (8-6).

BTW, don't you just love how Stone has to limit the comparison to the last 10 years and the top 120 picks so that he ignores Willie Reid and Limas Sneed..

Though, I am a bit confused. If you look at the last 10 drafts, the Patriots have only drafted 5 WR in the Top 120. Mitchell, Dobson, Boyce, Price, and Tate. Who is this 6th that Stone is referring to?

 

[DaBruinz]

In other words, during the past 10 drafts Sh!tsdirt has whiffed on 3 WRs (not counting Dri Archer) chosen within the top 120 while Bill has whiffed on 5 out of the 6 in the same range.

What stats tells us about the draft by round

1st round WRs have a 56% success rate.
2nd round WRs have a 49% success rate.
3rd round have only a 25% success rate.
4th round have only a 12% success rate.

Why do you say Top 120 when the success rate of 4th round WRs is less than 15%?

You're clearing doing it to try yet again to claim that Belichick sucks and you're god when it comes to drafting. While Belichick is far from perfect, he's got 7 SB title rings, he's been to 11 of them. 3 as the DC/Asst. to Parcells and 8 as a HC. Last I looked, you've been to ZERO as anything more than a spectator.

And yes, Belichick has clearly admitted that he erred when he went with McDaniels over the scouts for Chad Jackson, which was in the 2006 Draft (outside of your last 10 years, btw).

Maybe it's just interesting to me, but Jackson, Tate and Mitchell all ended up having their Pats careers shortened due to knee injuries. Dobson's career got sidelined by Ankle and Hamstring injuries.

Tate and Mitchell both fell to the 3rd and 4th rounds respectively because of their injury issues.
Jackson tore his ACL in play-offs against the Colts his rookie year.

 

[primetime]

Yeah, drafting is a crapshoot. The Steelers drafted Antonio Brown. They hit the lottery. Drafting superstars makes up for anything.

 

[captain stone]

Flag on the play.

The claim was the BB has sucked at drafting WRs for the Pats compared to what the Steelers have done. My counter claim was that the Steelers success rate has not been significantly superior than BB's has with the Pats.

BB has been drafting WRs for the Pats since 2000. Selecting one slice of time from that period is moving the goalposts.

Ten yards and loss of down.

Maine - I've had this exact same conversation with people and they just keep blinding coming up with the same crap. The last time I did it was in early 2016.

patriots are terrible at drafting wr

Since the above thread, the Steelers have added the following:
2014 - Dri Archer - 3rd round pick (adding for reference purposes since I didn't have in in the above mentioned thread)
2016 - Demarcus Ayers - 7th round pick
2017 - JuJu Smith Schuster - 2nd round (undecided)
2018 - James Washington - 2nd round (undecided)

The Patriots have added:
2016 - Malcolm Mitchell - 4th round
2017 - None -
2018 - Braxton Berrios - 6th round

So, updating the totals since 2001:
The Steelers have drafted 19 WR. The jury is still out on Smith-Schuster, though he is looking promising and it's unfair to rate Washington since he's a rookie.

I previously had them a 6 in 14. Now with Coates, Archer and Ayers busting, it's 6 in 17. 35.3%

The Patriots were at 3 in 10 with Boyce and Johnson considered incomplete. So, that puts them at 3 in 13, with Mitchell going to the negative side. 23%. Definitely not great, but with them not spending the draft capital on High picks the way the Steelers have, The Steelers use more HIGH draft capital (round 1-3) on WRs than the Patriots do (8-6).

BTW, don't you just love how Stone has to limit the comparison to the last 10 years and the top 120 picks so that he ignores Willie Reid and Limas Sneed..

Though, I am a bit confused. If you look at the last 10 drafts, the Patriots have only drafted 5 WR in the Top 120. Mitchell, Dobson, Boyce, Price, and Tate. Who is this 6th that Stone is referring to?

What stats tells us about the draft by round

1st round WRs have a 56% success rate.
2nd round WRs have a 49% success rate.
3rd round have only a 25% success rate.
4th round have only a 12% success rate.

Why do you say Top 120 when the success rate of 4th round WRs is less than 15%?

You're clearing doing it to try yet again to claim that Belichick sucks and you're god when it comes to drafting. While Belichick is far from perfect, he's got 7 SB title rings, he's been to 11 of them. 3 as the DC/Asst. to Parcells and 8 as a HC. Last I looked, you've been to ZERO as anything more than a spectator.

And yes, Belichick has clearly admitted that he erred when he went with McDaniels over the scouts for Chad Jackson, which was in the 2006 Draft (outside of your last 10 years, btw).

Maybe it's just interesting to me, but Jackson, Tate and Mitchell all ended up having their Pats careers shortened due to knee injuries. Dobson's career got sidelined by Ankle and Hamstring injuries.

Tate and Mitchell both fell to the 3rd and 4th rounds respectively because of their injury issues.
Jackson tore his ACL in play-offs against the Colts his rookie year.

I included the drafts from 2008 onwards because that period included the last time Bill successfully drafted somebody who is a WR.

I used a top-120 range because it represented players from whom it should be expected that they could at least become legitimate competitors for roster spots.

These two metrics should have actually placed Bill in the most favorable light possible, so I don't understand about what either of you are complaining.

 

[luuked]

I included the drafts from 2008 onwards because that period included the last time Bill successfully drafted somebody who is a WR.

I used a top-120 range because it represented players from whom it should be expected that they could at least become legitimate competitors for roster spots.

These two metrics should have actually placed Bill in the most favorable light possible, so I don't understand about what either of you are complaining.

Will all the insight and wisdom you have I am surprised you even have time writing on this board while consulting for the countless NFL franchises on their draft board. I mean if all of this is so easy and obvious to you then teams must be running down your door with offers. Any day now..

 

[Deus Irae]

DeMarcus Ayers - 2016, 7th
Sammie Coates - 2015, 3rd
Dri Archer - 2014, 3rd
Marcus Wheaton - 2013, 3rd
Justin Brown - 2013, 6th
Toney Clemons - 2012, 7th
Limas Sweed - 2008, 2nd
Dallas Baker - 2007, 7th
Willie Reid - 2006, 3rd
Fred Gibson - 2005, 4th
Lee Mays - 2002, 6th
Chris Taylor - 2001, 7th
Danny Farmer - 2000, 4th

That's 13.

BB has drafted 14 total WRs for the Pats, including Berrios.

BTW - took about 5 minutes on pro-football-reference to look that up.

Wheaton had 53 catches in his second season. He had 44 catches in his third season. In his 4th season, he suffered a shoulder injury and ended up on IR. He got a deal in Chicago, but was a bad match there, no question. As of now, he's on the Eagles, looking to make that team, in year six.

How's that a bust?