Garcia Update

[mgteich]

to me, this means that there is no need to "reach" for an OT, That bing said, it certainly possible that the team has McGlinchy, Allen, Williams and even McNeill rating higher than Garcia. If that is the case, we might very well draft an OT.

IMHO, having 3 OT's who can play is a plus.

 

[Soliel]

I think they should get one in the draft. That way when an injury happens, we still ave a new guy

 

[50-yard-line]

to me, this means that there is no need to "reach" for an OT, That bing said, it certainly possible that the team has McGlinchy, Allen, Williams and even McNeill rating higher than Garcia. If that is the case, we might very well draft an OT.

IMHO, having 3 OT's who can play is a plus.

What do you think about Brown? I'm seeing him all over the place, rated as high as #2 even though he's not as polished yet. He's huge and could be a good developmental project?

 

[mgteich]

What do you think about Brown? I'm seeing him all over the place, rated as high as #2 even though he's not as polished yet. He's huge and could be a good developmental project?

I'm not much of an evaluator. I don't watch college film. You might check the draft board. For me, I don't WANT a developmental project. We have that in Croston, Bowanko and perhaps even Tobin. If we are drafting an OT, I want one that is projected to be at least as good as Garcia. For me, if Scar says that he qualifies, then Brown qualifies.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Man what a relief it would be if Garcia could come in and start at LT for this team.. I'm not sure how realistic that is given he hasnt played in 2 years, but what a great story that would be

 

[primetime]

I disagree with the idea that his round has any connection to his upside. Garcia is extremely athletic and he had outstanding tape. He's from a smaller school, but he handled top competition with ease. I get that we all want fewer question marks at tackle, but Cannon and Waddle are solid starters in the meantime.

This doesn't surprise me at all and it's a drum I've been beating for weeks. Last year was also a strong tackle draft and this year's is a very weak one. If you look at year-to-year ratings by many websites, you'll notice Garcia's grade from last year is higher, sometimes significantly, than guys like Kolton Miller who everybody seems to want the Pstriots to draft simply because he's a tackle and that's an area of perceived need.

I think the best tackle in this year's draft is listed as a guard in Isaiah Wynn and I think Garcia's on par with the likes of McGlinchey. I think Connor Williams is a guard. The only other tackles I like are Orlando Brown and Jamarco Jones. Kolton Miller is ok but he would be a reach for need in round 1. I can see the Patriots taking one of the latter in the 3rd round but I don't see a tackle in the top-4 picks. I don't think any of these players are such an upgrade on Garcia as a prospect that it would justify use of draft capital.

 

[primetime]

What do you think about Brown? I'm seeing him all over the place, rated as high as #2 even though he's not as polished yet. He's huge and could be a good developmental project?

Brown's a beast. He plays far more athletic than he tests. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if he's a 1st round pick. It also wouldn't surprise me if he falls to the 4th. I like him more than any tackle in the draft other than Isaiah Wynn. I wouldn't draft a tackle with any of the first four picks though.

 

[50-yard-line]

Brown's a beast. He plays far more athletic than he tests. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if he's a 1st round pick. It also wouldn't surprise me if he falls to the 4th. I like him more than any tackle in the draft other than Isaiah Wynn. I wouldn't draft a tackle with any of the first four picks though.

Isn't Wynn destined to play guard?

 

[primetime]

Isn't Wynn destined to play guard?

No, unless you take his listed position on draft websites seriously. Reminds me of Cannon, who had been predetermined for a switch to guard at the draft that never materialized, and ultimately he became an All Pro tackle.

Wynn's a tackle prospect and I'd keep him there until he proves otherwise.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Isn't Wynn destined to play guard?

Wynn has the prototypical body for a guard but has proven to play LT effectively at the college level. Personally I think his best position is at guard but he has the versatility to play tackle if needed. Not saying we won’t buck the trend but we seem to like the bigger athletic types (Kolten miller for example) at tackle.

 

[luuked]

This doesn't surprise me at all and it's a drum I've been beating for weeks. Last year was also a strong tackle draft and this year's is a very weak one. If you look at year-to-year ratings by many websites, you'll notice Garcia's grade from last year is higher, sometimes significantly, than guys like Kolton Miller who everybody seems to want the Pstriots to draft simply because he's a tackle and that's an area of perceived need.

I think the best tackle in this year's draft is listed as a guard in Isaiah Wynn and I think Garcia's on par with the likes of McGlinchey. I think Connor Williams is a guard. The only other tackles I like are Orlando Brown and Jamarco Jones. Kolton Miller is ok but he would be a reach for need in round 1. I can see the Patriots taking one of the latter in the 3rd round but I don't see a tackle in the top-4 picks. I don't think any of these players are such an upgrade on Garcia as a prospect that it would justify use of draft capital.

I agree that nobody in this years draft has value over Garcia. The ones who might be as good or maybe better than him will require substantial resources and the ones that will be left for late day 2 (and beyond) will not be an upgrade.

That being said -- and this is not directed at you -- lets not shoehorn Garcia in as a starter please. This is still Waddle's job to lose. Measurements and getting your body right after a devastating disease is one thing but actual NFL level experience another. You don't just come in and just stonewall elite pass rushers without a learning curve.

He might become a starter towards the end of the season or might just end up a swing tackle this year depending on how fast he can absorb it all (and injury luck).

 

[maineman209]

What do you think about Brown? I'm seeing him all over the place, rated as high as #2 even though he's not as polished yet. He's huge and could be a good developmental project?

Brown didn't test well at all in terms of athleticism, but he may play a lot better than his numbers. I haven't watched his tape, so I can't say. Elite athleticism isn't absolutely necessary in pass-pro for a pocket passer, anyway - maybe even less so on the right side. Excellent pass-blocking technique and awareness may more than compensate for athletic "deficits".

OTOH, OL athleticism can be an enormous asset in run-blocking. It's not just about opening holes at the LoS, but also about being able to execute pulls and get to the second level, etc. It's unclear to me whether Brown can do those things effectively.

 

[PatsFan2]

Pretty much agree with others here. BB shouldn't spend that 23 on an OL unless a significantly better prospect that they rate Garcia is on the board. Say, if McGlinchy falls or they love Kolton.



Otherwise, if a high-ceiling work-in-progress like, say, Orlando Brown drops into 2 and he's BPA, grab him.

Very good news if Garcia's ready to go. Still not sleeping on Jelks, either.

Nice post "50" those two players are projected at or very close to our First Rounders. If they feel Garcia is ready to be the player they hope... they can certainly pass other pressing needs. I am for Defense very early and often. Wouldn't mind a decent young TE with one of those Seconds or Third.

 

[maineman209]

No, unless you take his listed position on draft websites seriously. Reminds me of Cannon, who had been predetermined for a switch to guard at the draft that never materialized, and ultimately he became an All Pro tackle.

Wynn's a tackle prospect and I'd keep him there until he proves otherwise.

I'd guess that the "destined" thing is mainly due to his height, or lack thereof (6026).

OTOH, he was moved to the inside during Senior Bowl week and was "dominant", by all accounts I've read. Given how much more in demand dominant IOL have been recently - and how much more expensive - a move inside at the NFL level wouldn't be surprising.

 

[supafly]

I think it’s interesting that we’re getting lots of info lately, and I wonder what the motive is for the people giving up this information.

Garcia may be hoping to put some of the chatter about him not being ready and losing lots of weight to rest, in hopes that they may give him a solid chance of starting at LT. Interesting that we’ve heard nothing for months and months and now we find out two weeks before the draft that he’s bulkier, has added more muscle, and now “it’s the best that he’s ever felt,” etc.

Belichick may be providing some info about wanting Lamar Jackson in the hopes of creating a smokescreen, either to get someone to bite on him because he sees his limitations, or to help push other non-QBs down the line. Brady may be helping to push the narrative that we’re very interested in Jackson (his competition, of course), or simply trying to be nice/supportive.

Julian trying to send a message with his IG shot of Guerrero working on him? Gronk trying to proclaim....something?

Lots of reading of the tea leaves with some of this stuff. I just find it ironic that everyone seems a bit chatty lately, all with different motives. Maybe I’m just overthinking things. It wouldn’t be the first time.

 

[primetime]

I agree that nobody in this years draft has value over Garcia. The ones who might be as good or maybe better than him will require substantial resources and the ones that will be left for late day 2 (and beyond) will not be an upgrade.

That being said -- and this is not directed at you -- lets not shoehorn Garcia in as a starter please. This is still Waddle's job to lose. Measurements and getting your body right after a devastating disease is one thing but actual NFL level experience another. You don't just come in and just stonewall elite pass rushers without a learning curve.

He might become a starter towards the end of the season or might just end up a swing tackle this year depending on how fast he can absorb it all (and injury luck).

I like Waddle a lot and Garcia needs some NFL seasoning. I completely agree with you. Garcia and any draftee are just prospects. Waddle's a battle-tested NFL player. The biggest issue is the Patriots only have him for one year, and if he plays well (or even just plays ok, so long as he's got a year as a starting left tackle) then he's going to command a Solder-like deal next off season. It makes sense; his agent certainly knew he could name his price to a certain extent given the Patriots' need.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Brown's a beast. He plays far more athletic than he tests. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if he's a 1st round pick. It also wouldn't surprise me if he falls to the 4th. I like him more than any tackle in the draft other than Isaiah Wynn. I wouldn't draft a tackle with any of the first four picks though.

14 reps in the bench press is bad, especially when players like conner williams can do twice as many.

 

[maineman209]

Athletic testing numbers aren't the be-all/end-all (duh!), but they certainly don't hurt.

Historically, Scar seems to have preferred OL prospects who tested fairly well in terms of 10yd split/shuttle/3-cone + vertical/long jumps, but he hasn't been inflexible about it.

Solder tested really well across the board, and it translated to the field (and saved Brady's butt on numerous occasions). Miller is roughly the same size as Solder and has even tested a smidge better, which pretty much explains his popularity. I don't know that Miller's athleticism has translated, or if it ever will at the NFL level, but it's still a significant evaluation factor (if one believes that his technique/footwork flaws can be corrected).

Thuney and Mason both tested in the near-elite range, and Mason may be gone after this season. Next closest on the current roster are Croston, James (Nepotism, Baby!) Ferentz and Matt Tobin, followed (at some distance) by Bowanko.

While there are some highly-touted OL prospects for whom I haven't seen complete testing numbers (lot of "DNPs" for McGlinchey, Wynn, Ragnow, etc.), among those for whom I have a complete set...
- James Daniels (OC/OG - 6033/306)
- Brian O'Neill (OT - 6067/297)
- and Joe Noteboom (OT/OG - 6050/309)
..... all tested in the Thuney/Mason range.

Greg Senat (OT - 6062/302) tested in the Croston-Tobin range.

None of Jason King, Garcia, Andrews, Karras, Cannon, Waddle and Jelks tested particularly well. Among the prospects in this draft ...
- Wyatt Teller (OG - 6044/314)
- Austin Corbett (OG - 6043/306)
- Okorafor (OT - 6060/320)
- and Brandon Parker (OT - 6075/305)
..... all tested better - significantly better in some cases.

The point being that pretty much all of these guys (except maybe Daniels) should be available in the 3rd-round through UDFA range. Given that keeping Scar's developmental pipeline full is pretty much SOP, and given that Mason and Waddle may be gone in 2019, and that Cannon is turning 30 soon, it wouldn't be shocking to me if the Pats draft one or two of these prospects, unless their tape is completely hopeless.

 

[primetime]

14 reps in the bench press is bad, especially when players like conner williams can do twice as many.

He also mauled the hell out of everyone he faced in college. Guys have bad days at the combine, and some players just don't test well.

I think he's probably going to be limited to right tackle in the NFL, but I think he's going to be a good one.

 

[maineman209]

14 reps in the bench press is bad, especially when players like conner williams can do twice as many.

Meh.

For me, "bench reps" is the testing number that I pay the least amount of attention to for linemen. First of all, it doesn't really correlate well to functional strength on the field. Second, after several months working with a pro-level strength and conditioning staff in an NFL training facility, whatever pre-draft differences there may have been quickly become negligible.