Patriots resign Marquis Flowers

[Brewskies]

Glad to see Flowers signed. BB doing OK in my opinion.

Go Pats

 

[Love The Drake]

Flowers may have a breakout year

 

[captain stone]

As always, we have a roster issue at safety.

We often play 3, since they are 3 of our best defensive backs.

If we often play 3 safeties, then we need ONE backup. If Richards is to stay as an STO player, that's fine. That would mean that another STO player would go.

One of King, Ebner, or Slater? Because I wouldn't remove any of those 3 for Richards. For somebody else - David Jones, Demarius Travis, one or more draft picks & UDFAs, or even post-draft street FAs? Absolutely...but not for Glitch.

 

[supafly]

As always, we have a roster issue at safety.

We often play 3, since they are 3 of our best defensive backs.

If we often play 3 safeties, then we need ONE backup. If Richards is to stay as an STO player, that's fine. That would mean that another STO player would go.

It’s interesting that you are a guy who sees a need at the S4 position, but not at the OT2-3 positions. I’m not meaning to claim that you’re somehow wrong or that I am right, but I do think that the mindset is ironic. At least with the safety position, we have three starting caliber players and can scheme to use three corners in subs when needed, even four when the situation dictates or emergency occurs.

To take it one step further, at least there’s experience at the S4 position, unlike the OT positions, both starter and backup. Ultimately, I think we could see draft picks at both positions.

 

[supafly]

As much as I want Richards gone he does play a ton of STs and seemingly is pretty darn good at it. Obviously BB commits a handful of roster spots to ST and I'm supportive of it but it seems to me they have enough and there is no need for Richards to be on the roster in 2018.

I don’t remember too many years where we looked at the fourth safety and thought “that’s my guy,” so anyone other than Richards is fine with me.

If benchings and injuries don’t intersect during the SB, Richards likely sees the field much less than the 11 snaps he received.

 

[mgteich]

One of King, Ebner, or Slater? Because I wouldn't remove any of those 3 for Richards. For somebody else - David Jones, Demarius Travis, one or more draft picks & UDFAs, or even post-draft street FAs? Absolutely...but not for Glitch.

I would keep Richards instead of Grigsby

 

[mgteich]

OT
Cannon, Waddle
backups: Tobin
PUP: Garcia
OT/OG backup - Croston

Yes, we need another backup.

Where we differ is that you seem to believe that there are lots of LT starters early in the draft. I'd be more comfortable with a trade, even one of our top 2 picks.

However, I'm fine if Belichick does draft an OT in the first 50. That would mean that he is rated as a likely starter in 2018 or 2019.

A #1 need does NOT the same as a #1 draft priority. Draft priority depends on the quality of positions at various place in the draft.

It’s interesting that you are a guy who sees a need at the S4 position, but not at the OT2-3 positions. I’m not meaning to claim that you’re somehow wrong or that I am right, but I do think that the mindset is ironic. At least with the safety position, we have three starting caliber players and can scheme to use three corners in subs when needed, even four when the situation dictates or emergency occurs.

To take it one step further, at least there’s experience at the S4 position, unlike the OT positions, both starter and backup. Ultimately, I think we could see draft picks at both positions.

 

[supafly]

OT
Cannon, Waddle
backups: Tobin
PUP: Garcia
OT/OG backup - Croston

Yes, we need another backup.

Where we differ is that you seem to believe that there are lots of LT starters early in the draft. I'd be more comfortable with a trade, even one of our top 2 picks.

However, I'm fine if Belichick does draft an OT in the first 50. That would mean that he is rated as a likely starter in 2018 or 2019.

A #1 need does NOT the same as a #1 draft priority. Draft priority depends on the quality of positions at various place in the draft.

You seem to have more optimism than I do in regards to the prospect of moving Marcus Cannon to LT, because Waddle is purely a RT.

I wouldn’t be set with either one of these tackles, personally. Neither has proven to be effective in any capacity playing on the left side.

Croston is a guy that I like in a developmental role, but has almost no experience at LT. Garcia just received clearance to resume football activity a few days ago, and is basically an unknown rookie. Jelks hasn’t played since 2014. Tobin couldn’t do anything on one of the worst OLs in the league last season. He wasn’t even considered one of the top 3 tackles on that roster and will likely be camp fodder.

Saying that “we need another backup” is an extremely optimistic stance to take. Here is Hannable’s opinion on the situation:

What does bringing back OT LaAdrian Waddle mean for replacing Nate Solder?

 

[luuked]

I don’t remember too many years where we looked at the fourth safety and thought “that’s my guy,” so anyone other than Richards is fine with me.

If benchings and injuries don’t intersect during the SB, Richards likely sees the field much less than the 11 snaps he received.

Richards 16 snaps on defense were more or less exactly the average of his overall 2017 snap counts per game. He didnt play more or less during the SB than on average that season. In reality the benching of Butler had essentially zero effect on his playtime because Chung was out for less than a handful snaps. And apart from those 3-4 snaps he played in his usual role in specific packages that he would anyhow.

 

[supafly]

Richards 16 snaps on defense were more or less exactly the average of his overall 2017 snap counts per game. He didnt play more or less during the SB than on average that season. In reality the benching of Butler had essentially zero effect on his playtime because Chung was out for less than a handful snaps. And apart from those 3-4 snaps he played in his usual role in specific packages that he would anyhow.

You still think they’d have used 4 safeties in a 6 DB set with Butler playing against those receivers? I’m not so sure, myself.

What bothers me is that the scheme failed so miserably against another somewhat similar offense in the beginning of the year, so maybe you’re right that Richards would’ve still seen 16 defensive reps. My bad on quoting the 11 reps when it was really 16. I must have been thinking of Bademosi.

 

[maineman209]

Yeah. That's it.

Wait till you see my "need a big tall speedy fast WR with great hands" post.

Anyway this was a very cool thread. I was definitely not seeing the D correctly but now I've got something new to check out when watching the coaches film this weekend.

I'm even more eager to see how the draft plays out now, since the trade for Shelton - which may re-vitalize the NT position. You were right about that, BTW. BB just took a different route to get there than you projected.

Anyway, your post have inspired me to look at roster personnel with 3-4 versus 4-3 sets in mind.

Right now, the Pats appear to have at least one solid 3-4 NT & backup with Shelton and Valentine, plus one very good 4-3 "undertackle" in Brown. But what about 3-4 DE?

Brown has played the role at times, but, at 6023, he doesn't have the typical length for it. Guy (6041/305) is more the classic body type for 3-4 DE (and has experience coming over from BAL). Adam Butler (6037/280) comes close, and IIRC, played a bit closer to 300# in college. Guy and Butler also both posted decent 3-cone times (7.60 & 7.51, respectively).

It's maybe worth noting that all the guys above are signed for at least two more seasons, with Guy signed for three (and they have options for a third season of both Shelton and Brown).

Interestingly, Clayborn is similar in size to Butler at 6030/281, although more a pure 4-3 edge guy in experience.

In terms of other potential 4-3 DE types besides Clayborn, the Pats have Trey Flowers (6020/265), Hightower (6030/265), Lee (6032/260), Wise (6052/274), and the untested Davis (6030/271). On the 3-4 side of their potential, Hightower has been mostly LB/OLB; Lee played about half his 281 snaps last season in an OLB-ish role. T. Flowers (only under contract for one more season at the moment), seems to drop back into an OLB-ish role sometimes, but not a huge amount.

Looking at these guys from a 3-4 perspective ... HT has certainly played something like a 3-4 OLB/elephant role. Lee (an ERFA at the end of the season) was essentially a rookie in 2017, but might have the chops, at least as a reserve. Wise's length is impressive; if his frame can handle another 10-15 lbs of muscle mass, he'd be in 3-4 DE range.

The other potential LBs are: Langi (6015/251), Rivers (6041/248), Van Noy (6030/245) and M.Flowers (6025/245). Roberts, at 5110/235, is the odd man out from a 3-4 perspective, size-wise. Note that there's nearly zero NFL experience in this group. If BB decides to add another experienced hand, does he go with a lighter-weight 4-3 type, or a heftier 3-4 type?

And, circling back to the draft, does BB add a lighter, faster "coverage LB" (as most analysts seem to expect and most fans seem to want)? Or does he try for a Vand-urlacher type (6042/256), or even another college edge-type like Landry (6023/252), similar to Rivers? At DE, does BB go for a 4-3 type DE like Davenport (6056/264), or a 3-4 type like Hand (6035/297)?

IOW, which front-7 personnel choices BB makes with his next couple of moves may hold a clue to where he sees the defensive emphasis going for 2018 and the next couple seasons.

 

[maineman209]

I would keep Richards instead of Grigsby

Interesting choice, either way.

Grigsby (6001/230) is a bit bigger, stronger and tested out with a bit more explosiveness than Richards, and he's also noted for having played the "Star" LB/SS hybrid position in college at Pitt (although he didn't show the coverage chops that Richards did at Stanford).

Former college teammate of Psquad CB Ryan Lewis, btw.

 

[maust]

I would keep Richards instead of Grigsby

Clearly you haven't been paying attention to the comments here

 

[captain stone]

I would keep Richards instead of Grigsby.

I wouldn't. The ONLY player on the current roster ahead of whom I would keep Richards
is Jomal Wiltz.

 

[maineman209]

I wouldn't. The ONLY player on the current roster ahead of whom I would keep Richards
is Jomal Wiltz.

LOL! What's wrong with Wiltz?

 

[mgteich]

Folks are evaluating Richards as a SS backup. I agree that if he would expected to play there, then Richards should be on the team.

BTW, I would say the same for Ebner, Slater and King. I don't want them playing defense or offense either.

The "obvious" (?) bottom line is that we need to replace Richards with a top special team who is an adequate backup safety. As Belichick has demonstrated, these players are just not that easy to find.

Clearly you haven't been paying attention to the comments here

 

[Tony2046]

I wouldn't. The ONLY player on the current roster ahead of whom I would keep Richards
is Jomal Wiltz.

Dude! If you haven't given Wiltz a nickname he can't be all that bad.

 

[maust]

Folks are evaluating Richards as a SS backup. I agree that if he would expected to play there, then Richards should be on the team.

BTW, I would say the same for Ebner, Slater and King. I don't want them playing defense or offense either.

The "obvious" (?) bottom line is that we need to replace Richards with a top special team who is an adequate backup safety. As Belichick has demonstrated, these players are just not that easy to find.

All due respect and no insult intended or implied, please lighten up and try viewing things in the vein in which they were obviously meant. My post was intended as nothing more than poking a little fun at all of us and a lot of it at Richards, a little Saturday morning levity. No matter how anyone perceives Richards the post was intended to make them smile. Nothing more, nothing less. So... please, it does a soul good from time to time and doesn't cost a nickel.

 

[mgteich]

If you wanted smiles in consideration of keeping Richards, then you are the first.

I apologize for taking your post seriously.

All due respect and no insult intended or implied, please lighten up and try viewing things in the vein in which they were obviously meant. My post was intended as nothing more than poking a little fun at all of us and a lot of it at Richards, a little Saturday morning levity. No matter how anyone perceives Richards the post was intended to make them smile. Nothing more, nothing less. So... please, it does a soul good from time to time and doesn't cost a nickel.

 

[Tony2046]

I'm even more eager to see how the draft plays out now, since the trade for Shelton - which may re-vitalize the NT position. You were right about that, BTW. BB just took a different route to get there than you projected.

Anyway, your post have inspired me to look at roster personnel with 3-4 versus 4-3 sets in mind.

Right now, the Pats appear to have at least one solid 3-4 NT & backup with Shelton and Valentine, plus one very good 4-3 "undertackle" in Brown. But what about 3-4 DE?

Brown has played the role at times, but, at 6023, he doesn't have the typical length for it. Guy (6041/305) is more the classic body type for 3-4 DE (and has experience coming over from BAL). Adam Butler (6037/280) comes close, and IIRC, played a bit closer to 300# in college. Guy and Butler also both posted decent 3-cone times (7.60 & 7.51, respectively).

It's maybe worth noting that all the guys above are signed for at least two more seasons, with Guy signed for three (and they have options for a third season of both Shelton and Brown).

Interestingly, Clayborn is similar in size to Butler at 6030/281, although more a pure 4-3 edge guy in experience.

In terms of other potential 4-3 DE types besides Clayborn, the Pats have Trey Flowers (6020/265), Hightower (6030/265), Lee (6032/260), Wise (6052/274), and the untested Davis (6030/271). On the 3-4 side of their potential, Hightower has been mostly LB/OLB; Lee played about half his 281 snaps last season in an OLB-ish role. T. Flowers (only under contract for one more season at the moment), seems to drop back into an OLB-ish role sometimes, but not a huge amount.

Looking at these guys from a 3-4 perspective ... HT has certainly played something like a 3-4 OLB/elephant role. Lee (an ERFA at the end of the season) was essentially a rookie in 2017, but might have the chops, at least as a reserve. Wise's length is impressive; if his frame can handle another 10-15 lbs of muscle mass, he'd be in 3-4 DE range.

The other potential LBs are: Langi (6015/251), Rivers (6041/248), Van Noy (6030/245) and M.Flowers (6025/245). Roberts, at 5110/235, is the odd man out from a 3-4 perspective, size-wise. Note that there's nearly zero NFL experience in this group. If BB decides to add another experienced hand, does he go with a lighter-weight 4-3 type, or a heftier 3-4 type?

And, circling back to the draft, does BB add a lighter, faster "coverage LB" (as most analysts seem to expect and most fans seem to want)? Or does he try for a Vand-urlacher type (6042/256), or even another college edge-type like Landry (6023/252), similar to Rivers? At DE, does BB go for a 4-3 type DE like Davenport (6056/264), or a 3-4 type like Hand (6035/297)?

IOW, which front-7 personnel choices BB makes with his next couple of moves may hold a clue to where he sees the defensive emphasis going for 2018 and the next couple seasons.

I have had this 3-4 personnel picture in my head for over a year. A lot of your post frames what my thoughts were regarding the Patriot's defense personnel and scheme. But I couldn't understand, and I've mentioned this in the past, why Wise would play in a supposedly 3-4 type scheme when he really looks like a typical 4-3 DE. But after reading Andy's responses I went and looked at a bunch of game film and it makes more sense now or I see how my vision of BB's "3-4" was incorrect.

I've got to say that I am really enjoying this new view. It puts Wise, A.Butler and even Flowers into a more fitting perspective. It actually raises the importance of the NT. So the VV and Danny Shelton perspective has elevate in value. imo

So yes my original picture of "3-4" personnel was close but didn't completely explain what was on the field but Andy's 2-4 or 4-2 depending on how you look at it does. Wise getting 40 or 50% of the snaps makes much more sense now.

I feel like I was late to the party but at least I'm getting a piece of the cake.

Now I'm trying to figure out if I like the 2-4 (2 Dt's, 2 LB's, 2 DE's) better than the 3-4 (3DT's , 2 LB's, 2 DE's). And I'm not sure if I agree with the position that 3 DT's , including Shelton, couldn't generate pressure on the QB because initially I think they could. Anyway that's what I'm looking into now or trying to look into when I get some spare time.

And you're right in a couple of ways. This upcoming draft and season will be very interesting to me.

How Rivers and Shelton perform in TC will be high on my list this season.

Good stuff Maineman. Thanks