Steelers 1st TD - why was flag picked up?

[luuked]

But then how come when play was reviewed, and all scoring plays are reviewed, this was not called. Unless 12 man cannot be called on review.

Bingo. For whatever arbitrary reason ineligible downfield is not reviewable.

 

[catent]

I'm going to bump this thread because it seems the topic, why the flag for an ineligible player downfield was picked up, still has yet to be answered.

I'm curious if anyone who has access to a replay of the game, or specific camera angles can figure this one out.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

(start at 1:32)

Seems clearly a blocker is downfield before the pass is thrown. It was play-action, which added to the defenders' understandable confusion.

 

[Biffins]

I'm going to bump this thread because it seems the topic, why the flag for an ineligible player downfield was picked up, still has yet to be answered.

I'm curious if anyone who has access to a replay of the game, or specific camera angles can figure this one out.

Also why hasn't NFL officials answered for this? And yet they have given a detailed explanation for Jesse James' incompletion.

 

[catent]

(start at 1:32)

Seems clearly a blocker is downfield before the pass is thrown. It was play-action, which added to the defenders' understandable confusion.

Interesting.

The rule states that a violation occurs if an ineligible receiver is beyond the LOS and not blocking a defensive player prior to the pass being thrown.

While DeCastro is blocking someone at the time Roethlisberger releases the football, there is a split second where he is beyond the LOS and not blocking anyone.

So despite a closer look, I'm still confused as to whether or not a penalty actually occurred.

 

[moejr]

Don't tell the Steelers they got away with one on that first TD. They'll call BS

 

[catent]

I just re-read the rule and my initial description was inaccurate. Here's how the rule reads:

In gridiron football, ineligible receiver downfield, or an ineligible man downfield, is a penalty that is called when a forward pass is thrown and an ineligible receiver is beyond the line of scrimmage without blocking an opponent at the time of the pass.

So it seems to me that the flag was correctly picked up, given that DeCastro was blocking David Harris at the time Roethlisberger released the ball, meaning no violation occurred.

 

[Ring 6]

I just re-read the rule and my initial description was inaccurate. Here's how the rule reads:



So it seems to me that the flag was correctly picked up, given that DeCastro was blocking David Harris at the time Roethlisberger released the ball, meaning no violation occurred.

Where are you getting that rule recitation from?
It doesn’t make sense that you can go downfield as long as you find a defender, who is now in pass coverage to block.

 

[The Scrizz]

Where are you getting that rule recitation from?
It doesn’t make sense that you can go downfield as long as you find a defender, who is now in pass coverage to block.

Which would then become offensive PI anyway, so take your pick.

 

[Former Fan]

I believe he would have to be in continuous contact with a defender from the line of scrimmage out to that point. If he ran out and met Harris downfield, that's ineligible, IMO.

 

[catent]

Yeah, the definition I found was bogus. Essentially if an ineligible receiver is beyond the LOS at the time a pass is thrown, it's a penalty. However, if the pass doesn't cross the LOS, no penalty occurs.

So now I've swung back the other way: the flag should not have been picked up as far as I can tell.

 

[Gumby]

Yeah, the definition I found was bogus. Essentially if an ineligible receiver is beyond the LOS at the time a pass is thrown, it's a penalty. However, if the pass doesn't cross the LOS, no penalty occurs.

So now I've swung back the other way: the flag should not have been picked up as far as I can tell.

Here NFL rulebook:

1. The rules concerning a forward pass and ineligible receivers:
   
   (a) If ball is touched accidentally by an ineligible receiver on or behind his line: loss of five yards.
   
   (b) If ineligible receiver is illegally downfield: loss of five yards.
   
   (c) If touched or caught (intentionally or accidentally) by ineligible receiver beyond the line: loss of 5 yards.
2. The player who first controls and continues to maintain control of a pass will be awarded the ball even though his opponent later establishes joint control of the ball. . . .

The rule says nothing about blocking/engaged. If you are a lineman or covered end you can't go there on a pass play.

In implementation, There does seem to be some grey zone for the refs to hide behind, particularly for screen passes.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Screen passes that don't cross the line of scrimmage are apparently an exception:

With one exception, on any given pass play only eligible receivers can cross the line of scrimmage before either A) a pass crosses the line, or B) a defender touches the ball. The exception is on a forward pass that doesn't cross the line of scrimmage (like a screen or shovel pass). On such a play, the linemen can cross the line and be on their merry ways.​

Know Your Annoying Penalties: Ineligible Man Downfield

So I think it was indeed a penalty.

 

[Mack Herron]

Here NFL rulebook:


The rule says nothing about blocking/engaged. If you are a lineman or covered end you can't go there on a pass play.

In implementation, There does seem to be some grey zone for the refs to hide behind, particularly for screen passes.

Yes it does. The rule is here:

Item 1. Legally Downfield. An ineligible player is not illegally downfield if, after initiating contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage during his initial charge:

1. he moves more than one yard beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent
2. after breaking legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he remains stationary until a forward pass is thrown
3. after losing legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he is forced behind the line of scrimmage by an opponent, at which time he is again subject to normal blocking restrictions for an ineligible offensive player.

Note: If an ineligible offensive player moves beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent, an eligible offensive player may catch a pass between them and the line of scrimmage.

2017 NFL Rulebook | NFL Football Operations

But the note is confusing because it refers only to a pass behind the blocker. The Steelers pass was ahead of the blocker if I recall.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Yes it does. The rule is here:

2017 NFL Rulebook | NFL Football Operations

But the note is confusing because it refers only to a pass behind the blocker. The Steelers pass was ahead of the blocker if I recall.

Thats the definition i found, so it really depends on who the ol in question was blocking. Was he blocking a dl ? Then its probably legal. Was he blocking someone who wasnt lined up on the los when he started blocking him? Then its illegal if our guy was >1 yard in front of los.

 

[Former Fan]

But the note is confusing because it refers only to a pass behind the blocker. The Steelers pass was ahead of the blocker if I recall.

Thank you.

Even that last part would only apply if the offensive lineman was engaged with the blocker from the line of scrimmage out, IMO. He can't just run downfield 10 yards and they throw a pass to someone at 9 yards deep. He has to be continuously blocking a defender from 1 yard all the way out to 10 yards for that clause to apply.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Thank you.

Even that last part would only apply if the offensive lineman was engaged with the blocker from the line of scrimmage out, IMO. He can't just run downfield 10 yards and they throw a pass to someone at 9 yards deep. He has to be continuously blocking a defender from 1 yard all the way out to 10 yards for that clause to apply.

Ahh didnt catch that part... does that mean there shoudve been a flag regardless of where the initial block took place??

 

[Former Fan]

Ahh didnt catch that part... does that mean there shoudve been a flag regardless of where the initial block took place??

I've yet to see anyone point to a part of the rule that should have applied that would have caused the flag to be picked up.

In the replay, it's clear that he runs out there and engages Harris at least 3 yards past the line, which should be illegal as far as I can tell. Maybe, without benefit of replay, one of the refs thought that they were engaged from the LOS out, or that the pass was away before he got out there, or... To me, it seems pretty clear the the refs screwed up, but I haven't heard anything about what the refs thought they saw to cause them to pick it up.

As usual, a missed/bad call is only worth discussing if it should have been called against the Pats. If it works out in the opposition's favor, it's like it never even happened.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I've yet to see anyone point to a part of the rule that should have applied that would have caused the flag to be picked up.

In the replay, it's clear that he runs out there and engages Harris at least 3 yards past the line, which should be illegal as far as I can tell. Maybe, without benefit of replay, one of the refs thought that they were engaged from the LOS out, or that the pass was away before he got out there, or... To me, it seems pretty clear the the refs screwed up, but I haven't heard anything about what the refs thought they saw to cause them to pick it up.

As usual, a missed/bad call is only worth discussing if it should have been called against the Pats. If it works out in the opposition's favor, it's like it never even happened.

Ahhh ok, if it was someone not lined up on los and they engaged 3 yards downfield that is def a flag from how i read the rule

 

[Mack Herron]

Ahhh ok, if it was someone not lined up on los and they engaged 3 yards downfield that is def a flag from how i read the rule

Yes. And the video shows that Harris was not engaged within 1 yard of the LOS. Instead, the OL runs down field to engage. This seems like a clear violation. I guess the ref did not see the point of engagement.