Stephon Gilmore

[jimnance]

Gilmore was excellent in buffalo. Probowl caliber.

I wouldn't say excellent. He was up and down. Yes, good enough to make 1 Pro bowl. But people here were saying hes been better than Butler. That's bs. He hasn't reached butler's level yet. Needs to show more consistency. Butler had been a top 10 CB over the last 2 years. Gilmore has not. Hes shown enough flashes that you'd think he could become top 5, but he's not there yet by a longshot.
Doesn't mean he couldn't be. My guess is Gilmore will be a helluva lot better by December.

 

[Ring 6]

I wouldn't say excellent. He was up and down. Yes, good enough to make 1 Pro bowl. But people here were saying hes been better than Butler. That's bs. He hasn't reached butler's level yet. Needs to show more consistency. Butler had been a top 10 CB over the last 2 years. Gilmore has not. Hes shown enough flashes that you'd think he could become top 5, but he's not there yet by a longshot.
Doesn't mean he couldn't be. My guess is Gilmore will be a helluva lot better by December.

I would say excellent.

 

[Silver Blue&Red]

Trouble is, Gilmore is lost but he's directing other players and screwing everybody else up too. Fozzie's TD where Gilmore got all excited about McCaffrey and got both himself and DMac out of position. Someone pointed out another play where he was trying to direct Butler and misread something. He's just not doing his job and he's keeping his teammates from doing theirs.

Bingo. "Not doing his job". Ala Collins. If Gilmore "is" the problem, and remains the problem, what are BB's options?

With such a big, guaranteed contract, what are possible solutions ? I haven't had this sick feeling in a long time.
I know BB is the best, and will correct it.

But damn , this is frustrating for the average fan, who is expecting the GOATS final years to have a fighting chance.

Frustrating because of the bad defense, and frustration with the league as a whole.
Before SB 51, I told myself (and others), if we won another SB after BSgate, I would be satisfied and feel vilified. I'd be happy being an "Average" team. (yeah,right)
But this is different.

This will be interesting
If we get out of this mess, I will truly be in awe of BB's mystical powers.

 

[Ring 6]

Bingo. "Not doing his job". Ala Collins. If Gilmore "is" the problem, and remains the problem, what are BB's options?

With such a big, guaranteed contract, what are possible solutions ? I haven't had this sick feeling in a long time.
I know BB is the best, and will correct it.

But damn , this is frustrating for the average fan, who is expecting the GOATS final years to have a fighting chance.

Frustrating because of the bad defense, and frustration with the league as a whole.
Before SB 51, I told myself (and others), if we won another SB after BSgate, I would be satisfied and feel vilified. I'd be happy being an "Average" team. (yeah,right)
But this is different.

This will be interesting
If we get out of this mess, I will truly be in awe of BB's mystical powers.

I don't know how anyone can doubt belichick will fix it.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Bingo. "Not doing his job". Ala Collins. If Gilmore "is" the problem, and remains the problem, what are BB's options?

With such a big, guaranteed contract, what are possible solutions ? I haven't had this sick feeling in a long time.
I know BB is the best, and will correct it.

But damn , this is frustrating for the average fan, who is expecting the GOATS final years to have a fighting chance.

Frustrating because of the bad defense, and frustration with the league as a whole.
Before SB 51, I told myself (and others), if we won another SB after BSgate, I would be satisfied and feel vilified. I'd be happy being an "Average" team. (yeah,right)
But this is different.

This will be interesting
If we get out of this mess, I will truly be in awe of BB's mystical powers.

I see no physicality. The run defense has been a joke. It seems like they're basically handcuffed with these running QBs.

 

[Betterthanmost]

I want to be a fly on the wall in the film review room for this play. Whatever the issue was, they have not solved it. Is it McCourty? Why did Gilmore slow down? Had he finished with this job? Is this a case of do your job and he is the one actually doing his job? WTF?

 

[mgteich]

Not meaning to sound like a smartass, but why would he change everything up to make them play "very different roles?" That seems like taking a very odd and complicated path to get from A to B.

McCourty excelled in his role, as did both Chung and Harmon. Butler was considered a top 10-15 CB and did a fine job in his role. It seems as though one could argue that all they needed to do was replace the reps from Logan Ryan's role.

I agree. Apparently, it's just not that simple. I don't know why. I was hoping that Butler would be able to play inside when Rowe came in. Then, we would have had
Butler-Ryan-Rowe become Gilmore-Rowe-Butler. Apparently that was not to be.

It seems that we clearly have two good outside corners in Butler and Gilmore, and a 3rd that Belichick certainly likes in Rowe. The open question is Ryan's role as a nickel back. I guess no one is an adequate nickel.

 

[203Pat]

Based on the comments by Harmon about the defense being as simple as it can be, and we don't have the same group as we did last year, I think reading between the lines may mean "Gilmore isn't figuring this out". I know it's still early but I really hope this isn't a very expensive Chad Johnson situation.

 

[Ring 6]

I want to be a fly on the wall in the film review room for this play. Whatever the issue was, they have not solved it. Is it McCourty? Why did Gilmore slow down? Had he finished with this job? Is this a case of do your job and he is the one actually doing his job? WTF?

You don't need to be a fly on the wall McCourty already said this was in him. Cover2 Gilmore did not have deep zone responsibility.

 

[Ring 6]

Based on the comments by Harmon about the defense being as simple as it can be, and we don't have the same group as we did last year, I think reading between the lines may mean "Gilmore isn't figuring this out". I know it's still early but I really hope this isn't a very expensive Chad Johnson situation.

That would only follow if Gilmore was the one not playing the right call but that's not the case at least not only.

 

[supafly]

Based on the comments by Harmon about the defense being as simple as it can be, and we don't have the same group as we did last year, I think reading between the lines may mean "Gilmore isn't figuring this out".

Yes, the fact that they supposedly simplified things on the back end and continue to have communication issues isn't good.

It's a fair point that others haven't played up to par, but it's also obvious that Gilmore hasn't picked things up entirely, too.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree. Apparently, it's just not that simple. I don't know why. I was hoping that Butler would be able to play inside when Rowe came in. Then, we would have had
Butler-Ryan-Rowe become Gilmore-Rowe-Butler. Apparently that was not to be.

It seems that we clearly have two good outside corners in Butler and Gilmore, and a 3rd that Belichick certainly likes in Rowe. The open question is Ryan's role as a nickel back. I guess no one is an adequate nickel.

I'm not sure that's been the issue at all.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

So, is the suggestion that McCourty, (a 7-8 yr vet) is suddenly having communication problems with Butler (4th year), Harmon (5th year), Chung (two separate stints as a Patriot)? That seems a bit odd.

The one change was bringing in an outside new guy who isn't diagnosing the proper coverage, picking up the right reads, failing to switch off/pass off receivers, etc. I don't doubt Gilmore or his talent, but doesn't it appear as though he's the wildcard in this scenario who hasn't adjusted to the new system, particularly in zone coverage?

Edit: that's not meaning to claim that there aren't mistakes being made by anyone else, but I do think that Gilmore being the new guy is making things more difficult.

No brother Sup, the suggestion is that the answer is far from a fact.
The logical fallacy of 'if A then it must be B' (post hoc ergo propter hoc) is clearly going on here. Gilmore being the new guy is not a conclusion, it is a condition. Where is the evidence through 4 games that Gilmore has repeatedly been in the wrong place and it caused long gains? Has anyone even looked at/broken down all 4 games to see how well Gilmore has covered his man or defended his zone? Further:
-What defensive calls are being made? They the same as last year?
-What is Gilmore being asked to do? Same as last year's LCB?
-Are the LB's the same and in their proper position compared to last year?
-Is the rushing D not doing its job and the DBs are having to 'lean up'?
-Is the pressure on the QB the same as last year (nothing! makes a secondary look good like a good pass rush)?

I'm perfectly open to putting the onus on Gilmore if/when the evidence presented shows Gilmore is the rotten apple in the barrel. But one 'witty' media guy breaking down a play as well as one posted clip of Gilmore as a Bill upset at missing over the top coverage is akin to putting together 10 pieces of a 500 piece puzzle and saying "I see the whole picture clear as a bell".


(no the picture isn't pulsing)
-

 

[supafly]

You don't need to be a fly on the wall McCourty already said this was in him. Cover2 Gilmore did not have deep zone responsibility.

That's fine, and also noble of McCourty to admit to a mistake, but that was 3 full games ago.

How many 20+ or 30+ plays have their been since then, in the past three weeks? I guarantee that the answer to that question would be shocking. The secondary is a complete wreck.

 

[supafly]

No brother Sup, the suggestion is that the answer is far from a fact.
The logical fallacy of 'if A then it must be B' (post hoc ergo propter hoc) is clearly going on here. Gilmore being the new guy is not a conclusion, it is a condition. Where is the evidence through 4 games that Gilmore has repeatedly been in the wrong place and it caused long gains? Has anyone even looked at/broken down all 4 games to see how well Gilmore has covered his man or defended his zone? Further:
-What defensive calls are being made? They the same as last year?
-What is Gilmore being asked to do? Same as last year's LCB?
-Are the LB's the same and in their proper position compared to last year?
-Is the rushing D not doing its job and the DBs are having to 'lean up'?
-Is the pressure on the QB the same as last year (nothing! makes a secondary look good like a good pass rush)?

I'm perfectly open to putting the onus on Gilmore if/when the evidence presented shows Gilmore is the rotten apple in the barrel. But one 'witty' media guy breaking down a play as well as one posted clip of Gilmore as a Bill upset at missing over the top coverage is akin to putting together 10 pieces of a 500 piece puzzle and saying "I see the whole picture clear as a bell".


(no the picture isn't pulsing)
-

Having lots of variables is a fair point that you can't immediately jump to conclusions, but I didn't see that many here pointing to Gilmore prior to this game.

The need to simplify the secondary scheme to the bare bones + communication issues with longtime seasoned veterans who have thrived in much more complex schemes tends to make people look at the new guy a little longer, at least in my opinion.

And I'm pretty sure that pic is pulsating.

 

[Ring 6]

That's fine, and also noble of McCourty to admit to a mistake, but that was 3 full games ago.

I didn't bring it up.

How many 20+ or 30+ plays have their been since then, in the past three weeks? I guarantee that the answer to that question would be shocking. The secondary is a complete wreck.

I believe each of the last 2 games were 2 20-29 and 2 30+

 

[supafly]

If it weren't for Rowe getting hurt, I think BB would've kept Gilmore benched for the rest of the Panthers game.

Well, unfortunately, that's something that we'll never know the answer to.

I doubt that he'd have stayed benched for any length of time, but that's just my opinion. Belichick knows that he needs to handle these situations carefully as it pertains to big name FAs and their inability to fully grasp the system right off the bat. If the media smells blood in the water it could make the spotlight on the player even hotter, and then you get into a weird pressure situation. That could be very costly, especially at a position such as CB.

As we've seen, Belichick can hide the fact that someone like Dwayne Allen only had 9 snaps much easier, as the expectations aren't nearly as high as Cooks or Gilmore.

 

[Ring 6]

Having lots of variables is a fair point that you can't immediately jump to conclusions, but I didn't see that many here pointing to Gilmore prior to this game.

The need to simplify the secondary scheme to the bare bones + communication issues with longtime seasoned veterans who have thrived in much more complex schemes tends to make people look at the new guy a little longer, at least in my opinion.

And I'm pretty sure that pic is pulsating.

Again you are assuming a lot.
Just because Harmon said they have simplified COMING FROM A PATRIOT PLAYER doesn't necessarily mean that. Even if it does it doesn't mean it's because of Gilmore. And even if it does simplified for this defense doesn't mean what it would for others.
Watching the games I see complex coverage calls and I see a few times where someone plays the wrong call. Whether it's Gilmore is impossible to say without knowing the call.

 

[Ring 6]

Well, unfortunately, that's something that we'll never know the answer to.

I doubt that he'd have stayed benched for any length of time, but that's just my opinion. Belichick knows that he needs to handle these situations carefully as it pertains to big name FAs and their inability to fully grasp the system right off the bat. If the media smells blood in the water it could make the spotlight on the player even hotter, and then you get into a weird pressure situation. That could be very costly, especially at a position such as CB.

As we've seen, Belichick can hide the fact that someone like Dwayne Allen only had 9 snaps much easier, as the expectations aren't nearly as high as Cooks or Gilmore.

It was also suggested that he wasn't benched but it may have been an equipment issue (reiss? Howe?)

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Well, unfortunately, that's something that we'll never know the answer to.

I doubt that he'd have stayed benched for any length of time, but that's just my opinion. Belichick knows that he needs to handle these situations carefully as it pertains to big name FAs and their inability to fully grasp the system right off the bat. If the media smells blood in the water it could make the spotlight on the player even hotter, and then you get into a weird pressure situation. That could be very costly, especially at a position such as CB.

As we've seen, Belichick can hide the fact that someone like Dwayne Allen only had 9 snaps much easier, as the expectations aren't nearly as high as Cooks or Gilmore.

Gilmore just needs to start performing and everything will die down.