Patriots Rumor Butler & Saints working towards finalizing a deal (Thread now UFC Pats Fans Event)

[Username]

For what it's worth I don't understand any of the CBA stuff, and the explanations of the stuff I don't understand confuse me ever more. This thread would be a better place if some of you swallowed your pride and admitted you feel the same. Anyway, I'm out till something happens that's within my capacity to comprehend.

 

[Froob]

But the point at hand is that you cannot discuss trading a pkayer you do not have under contract. RFAs are just one subset that the rule applies to. You don't need to find a separate RFA rule that says you can't discuss trading them because they are part of the larger group of not being under contract that you cannot discuss trading.
Another example would be the patriots discussing trading matt forte to the eagles.

Seems kinda naive to think so, that's like thinking every team in the league doesn't tamper before the legal period.

 

[Froob]

For what it's worth I don't understand any of the CBA stuff, and the explanations of the stuff I don't understand confuse me ever more. This thread would be a better place if some of you swallowed your pride and admitted you feel the same. Anyway, I'm out till something happens that's within my capacity to comprehend.

All the rules are arbitrarily applied anyways lol. It's kinda hard to say what is actually legit and what isn't.

 

[patchick]

But the point at hand is that you cannot discuss trading a pkayer you do not have under contract. RFAs are just one subset that the rule applies to. You don't need to find a separate RFA rule that says you can't discuss trading them because they are part of the larger group of not being under contract that you cannot discuss trading.
Another example would be the patriots discussing trading matt forte to the eagles.

I think we might have gotten off track here with quoting and requoting -- I wasn't arguing contrary to this. Regardless, I'm still stuck on this question:

How the heck did the Patriots and Dolphins negotiate a trade of Wes Welker when he wasn't under contract to either team?

The possible answers I can dream up:

1. There were specific CBA clauses making it legal at that time that have since changed.
2. The entire negotiation and trade WERE blatantly illegal and the league somehow missed that fact in its review and approval of the highly unusual trade.
3. It is possible to trade certain rights as opposed to trading a player per se.

Are there other possibilities? What am I missing?

 

[Ring 6]

I think you have this one reversed -- it was the Dolphins who were under the "good faith" obligation in the Welker case. They were the ones who tendered him.

Both are under that obligation. But again not discussing the trade of a player you do not have under contract applies to more than just RFA rules.

This certainly makes sense in the abstract, but how do we account for the Welker example? The Patriots and Dolphins negotiated a trade for a player who had neither signed his tender nor an offer sheet from the other team.

Given that we do not know the real facts it's hard to say. It's a dangerous path to take articles written by sports writers and assume every detail is an exact specific fact.
It is very possible that welkers agent negotiated separately with both teams as an intermediary.
Such as telling Miami welker wants to go to NE and he proposed a contract that would have a poison pill because welker wants to go there regardless of it they want to keep him but he doesn't want to do business that way. At the same time he asks NE if they would offer up more comp in a trade to ensure it's not matched.
He goes back to Miami they sign the tender and trade. The key here is Miami got MORE not less.

Just one possibility. There may be others but the one we can rule out is the dolphins and patriots discussed a trade of a player not under contract.

 

[Ring 6]

I think we might have gotten off track here with quoting and requoting -- I wasn't arguing contrary to this. Regardless, I'm still stuck on this question:

How the heck did the Patriots and Dolphins negotiate a trade of Wes Welker when he wasn't under contract to either team?

The possible answers I can dream up:

1. There were specific CBA clauses making it legal at that time that have since changed.
2. The entire negotiation and trade WERE blatantly illegal and the league somehow missed that fact in its review and approval of the highly unusual trade.
3. It is possible to trade certain rights as opposed to trading a player per se.

Are there other possibilities? What am I missing?

I see 1 or 2 or the option I just poster where the agent facilitated the move by negotiating a way for Miami to not match.

 

[Ring 6]

Seems kinda naive to think so, that's like thinking every team in the league doesn't tamper before the legal period.

Do you really think bill belichick is going to break an obvious rule given what has happened to this franchise?
And for what gain?
That's what is silly. He would be doing it in order to get less than tender comp in order to allow butler to leave.
This whole thing is wild speculation based upon the timing of signing Gilmore then trading for cooks and someone wondering why not just trade butler for cooks and inventing a story.
Anyone arguing that point is basing it all in someone thinking that would make sense with no knowledge it was happening.

 

[XLIX]

OK, I think we're talking about different things. Certainly, any negotiation has to be conducted in good faith without conspiring to cheat one of the parties. But when it comes to RFAs, there's an additional CBA obligation:

Good point. Agreed, the club tendering the RFA has to have the intention of keeping him and playing him instead of, like, yanking it back at the last moment.

 

[varjao]

Butler's value is around 15. You could say the same if the pats traded butler for number 32. Butler's a very good cornerback. He's solid. If he stays we would have the best secondary along with the donkeys.

He's going to get paid next year x 4 or 5 years of a rookie in a rookie salary.

The cost of opportunity is too high to throw a top 15 pick on Butler right now.

It makes more sense for a team in the bottom 25 of the draft that doesn't have a good history in drafting or developing CB's to take a chance on a proven player for a pick at the end of the first round where the blue chips prospects are already gone.

 

[patchick]

Just one possibility. There may be others but the one we can rule out is the dolphins and patriots discussed a trade of a player not under contract.

And yet, every single piece of evidence we have says that's precisely what happened.

E.g., an article from the time based on an interview with Welker's agent:

By that point, the only question was how to finalize the process. The Patriots were prepared to sign Welker to an offer sheet that included a "poison pill" that would make it difficult for the Dolphins to match. Yet in hopes of avoiding the bad blood that sometimes can accompany offer sheets - the Seahawks and Vikings recently engaged in a nasty back and forth with offensive lineman Steve Hutchinson and receiver Nate Burleson exchanging teams via offer sheets - the Patriots instead called the Dolphins and proposed a trade.

All accounts I've ever read say the same. Even if we assume that every sportswriter was identically mistaken on that front, we do know pretty certainly that Welker had visited the Patriots and the Patriots were preparing an offer sheet. But they didn't want to wait out the Dolphins right-to-match period, and/or they were nervous about the then-murky poison pill rules. So instead they offered an extra draft pick to pry him away from Miami quickly and cleanly. HOW?

Welker never received an offer sheet from the Patriots, and it was very much NOT in his interests to sign his RFA tender. Even if he ultimately signed the tender to allow the trade to go through, it could only have been after the trade negotiation was completed.

I'm honestly baffled by the whole thing.

 

[NashuaPats]

Regarding Welker signing with the Patriots, I believe the Patriots had offered a "poison pill" contract making it difficult for the Dolphins to match which Welker had agreed to in principle. As I recall, this upset the Dolphins and the 7th round pick was added to smooth things over. There was no active negotiation between the teams. Perhaps that was why it was allowed and approved by the NFL.

 

[DaBruinz]

I wonder why Butler still hasn't signed his tender?? Maybe it's in hope that the Pats will up their offer to bring him back..

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

If they're so f.ucking enamored by Butler, why not give us the freakin' #11 pick????

NOLA'S trying to fleece us

 

[DaBruinz]

One thing that I find interesting is the rumors that the Pats offer to Butler prior to this past season was only 6M AAV.. That's pretty bad considering that the RFA Tender for 2017 ($3.91 M) and Franchise Tender for 2018 ($15.9+M)would put him at over 10M AAV.. The Pats are usually very good at making sure that a discount isn't overly below those sorts of numbers..

 

[farn]

If they're so f.ucking enamored by Butler, why not give us the freakin' #11 pick????

NOLA'S trying to fleece us

Easy. We'll be ok. I don't think BB is going to get "fleeced".

 

[NashuaPats]

One thing that I find interesting is the rumors that the Pats offer to Butler prior to this past season was only 6M AAV.. That's pretty bad considering that the RFA Tender for 2017 ($3.91 M) and Franchise Tender for 2018 ($15.9+M)would put him at over 10M AAV.. The Pats are usually very good at making sure that a discount isn't overly below those sorts of numbers..

I believe that also included his salary for 2016 of $600K making it much more reasonable.

 

[Ring 6]

And yet, every single piece of evidence we have says that's precisely what happened.

E.g., an article from the time based on an interview with Welker's agent:


All accounts I've ever read say the same. Even if we assume that every sportswriter was identically mistaken on that front, we do know pretty certainly that Welker had visited the Patriots and the Patriots were preparing an offer sheet. But they didn't want to wait out the Dolphins right-to-match period, and/or they were nervous about the then-murky poison pill rules. So instead they offered an extra draft pick to pry him away from Miami quickly and cleanly. HOW?

Welker never received an offer sheet from the Patriots, and it was very much NOT in his interests to sign his RFA tender. Even if he ultimately signed the tender to allow the trade to go through, it could only have been after the trade negotiation was completed.

I'm honestly baffled by the whole thing.

But again it is dangerous to rely on an article to be 100% accurate on the chain of events specifically detailed and written from the point of view that we expect. For example the patriots called the dolphins could be short hand for the agent acted as an intermediary, particularly if the article was written with no concern over any importance in who made the call.
Not saying the article is wrong but I find that more likely the belichick blatantly breaking a rule he was on record 2 years earlier saying is something that just can't be done.

 

[Ring 6]

One thing that I find interesting is the rumors that the Pats offer to Butler prior to this past season was only 6M AAV.. That's pretty bad considering that the RFA Tender for 2017 ($3.91 M) and Franchise Tender for 2018 ($15.9+M)would put him at over 10M AAV.. The Pats are usually very good at making sure that a discount isn't overly below those sorts of numbers..

Of course you have no real way of knowing what they offered.

 

[Ring 6]

I wonder why Butler still hasn't signed his tender?? Maybe it's in hope that the Pats will up their offer to bring him back..

there is no reason to. Once he signs it he is no longer an RFA.
He won't sign it until either a team like NO tells him they have a deal but won't pay the comp so he had to sign it so they can try to make a trade or the RFA period tuns out.
I misunderstood this as well but RFA ends when you sign it.

 

[Ring 6]

And yet, every single piece of evidence we have says that's precisely what happened.

E.g., an article from the time based on an interview with Welker's agent:


All accounts I've ever read say the same. Even if we assume that every sportswriter was identically mistaken on that front, we do know pretty certainly that Welker had visited the Patriots and the Patriots were preparing an offer sheet. But they didn't want to wait out the Dolphins right-to-match period, and/or they were nervous about the then-murky poison pill rules. So instead they offered an extra draft pick to pry him away from Miami quickly and cleanly. HOW?

Welker never received an offer sheet from the Patriots, and it was very much NOT in his interests to sign his RFA tender. Even if he ultimately signed the tender to allow the trade to go through, it could only have been after the trade negotiation was completed.

I'm honestly baffled by the whole thing.

I think the agent maneuvered it. Welker didn't want them to match either. So welker wanted the poison pill. I think it was his agent that didn't want to play dirty pool with Miami so he went to them.
He had to have signed the tender before the trade.