Patriots Rumor Butler & Saints working towards finalizing a deal (Thread now UFC Pats Fans Event)

[Ring 6]

Are you even looking at what you're quoting or just quoting it blindly? Butler was under contract until March 4 (or March 9 or whatever). So NE and NO could have had plenty of completely legal discussions about Butler for a whole month between the Superbowl and then. Not to mention any conversations they may have had at any time during the season or postseason.

No they cannot. After the trade deadline of 2016 butler was not under contract for the future so therefore was not able to be traded. You cannot discuss trading a player you do not have the right to trade. Jesus. It's not that hard.

 

[Ring 6]

I actually tend to agree with you on that but I was replying to someone who was holding out that language as the source of the anti-discussion rule.

Yeah but that leads to people parsing the wrong rule and extending the argument to further misinformation.

 

[pherein]

I could list Florio and others but, you are right, I don't have access to any contract terms



Unsigned tender kept Malcolm Butler out of Brandin Cooks talks

New england doesn't have to make any demands. Unless NO gives the #11, NE sits back and NO would need to bargain. Butler has to rely on NO providing the money and providing a deal that they and NE agree on. Pretty ****ty position to bargain a big long term contract.

Well even in the Saints fan camp I think no one knows anything about what is going on. Its pretty much just conjecture at this point. Twiter guys are pretty useless at this point. I believe the true discussion for forums is which camp are you in ?

1. Cooks was a seperate deal and there is no attachment to MB. So #11 no matter what.
or
2. MB is part of the Cooks deal and this has already been decided between SP and BB during the Cooks deal.

I dont think #1 is true at this time. Otherwise why didnt SP offer a deal with the #11 pick to BB right away to get MB off the market ? SP knows the money MB wants before he even came down, and only makes sence to call the agent before to figure out his lowest price. So why did MB come to NO at all if SP had no idea what MB wants and no idea if BB would allow it ? The meeting was a success according to SP. So where is the offer so we can get MB off the market and in NO ?
There was no "We cant come to an agreement" or "Its going to take some time to work this deal out". There was nothing except "It was a great meeting we really like this kid".
Why hasnt MB signed yet ? I believe hes still allowed to shop till the end to see if BB can get #11 from someone else, and he can get more $$. So there must be a time limit for him to sign with NO for the agreed deal with BB. This probably is a deal on draft day or as late as possible. This deal might also include Who falls to the Saints in the #11 or #32 or 2nd round pick. But Im still in the camp that BB and SP have already worked this out. Might be convoluted where NE ends up with MB, NO ends up with MB, or MB goes to another team, but I think its all been decided in the Cooks trade.

 

[pherein]

That is exactly why you always have a defense that you can't win with.

lol so true, our defensive talent agents suck B. They seem to pick the worst or average guys, and theres never been a commitment to D.

 

[Ring 6]

lol so true, our defensive talent agents suck B. They seem to pick the worst or average guys, and theres never been a commitment to D.

Yeah but it's more the attitude you supported in that post.
There is no way a WR is not valuable to your team than a corner. Stopping the other team is at least equally as important as your own offense.
Brees has shown he can do reasonably well no matter who he is throwing to but can't win without a defense.

This is why the patriots are historically cheap on WRs. If you have brady he will elevate whoever you put at WR but he can't do anything to elevate your defense. Put the resources into the spots Brady can't carry.

You guys have done it backwards trying to overload him with weapons when he would be just fine with average ones and win a hell of a lot more with those resources spent on defense.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Yeah but it's more the attitude you supported in that post.
There is no way a WR is not valuable to your team than a corner. Stopping the other team is at least equally as important as your own offense.
Brees has shown he can do reasonably well no matter who he is throwing to but can't win without a defense.

This is why the patriots are historically cheap on WRs. If you have brady he will elevate whoever you put at WR but he can't do anything to elevate your defense. Put the resources into the spots Brady can't carry.

You guys have done it backwards trying to overload him with weapons when he would be just fine with average ones and win a hell of a lot more with those resources spent on defense.

I agree with this, or at least that's how it has appeared on the surface. That when you have a QB like Brady, it's best to spend more on the defense. He will spin yarn into gold. However, I think that they've invested a lot of money in the secondary with Gilmore, McCourty and Harmon. We have seen them do just fine, as long as they have a solid #1 corner, with other guys playing CB2 and slot like Brandon Browner, Kyle Arrington, Eric Rowe, etc. Due to the great safety play from McCourty and Harmon, they may just see a big contract for Butler as not maximizing value, whereas they could upgrade other areas to higher levels with that money.

I think they are cheap on WRs for other reasons, though, which is that their offense values certain traits that are not that high in demand from other teams. Their offense isn't based around the idea of an insanely athletic outside receiver being the primary target of the offense. They seem to prefer quickness, both in physical speed and mental decision making. I do wonder if Edelman is closer to the cliff than we think, though, and if that is a reason why Cooks became more valuable. That, and the fact that with Gronkowski running up the seam and drawing double teams, they are able to get much more chunk plays, sometimes to wide open receivers, and become a much better medium-long pass team rather than relying mainly on short quick passing. Cooks seems to be a candidate to fill that role due to his speed and big play ability. They must think Cooks is a real game changer, a guy who can change the way defenses are forced to play them, and a guy who can create huge mismatches. Again, they have that when Gronkowski is healthy, but it's a risky assumption he will be healthy.

 

[Marqui]

So dumb Belichick won't just extend Butler. Don't know what he's saving all this money for.

 

[K. Dog]

I think they are cheap on WRs for other reasons, though, which is that their offense values certain traits that are not that high in demand from other teams. Their offense isn't based around the idea of an insanely athletic outside receiver being the primary target of the offense. They seem to prefer quickness, both in physical speed and mental decision making.

I like this formulation of an aspect of the Patriots offensive philosophy.

Let's divide offensive philosophies into two types:

Type 1: Win with quickness: on the field and in the mind.

Type 2: Win with athleticism.

There is ONE TEAM that adheres to the type 1 philosophy. There are 31 teams that adhere to the type 2 philosophy. Hence, 32 defenses are specialized for guarding against teams that adhere to the type 2 philosophy.

If the Patriots switch to a type 2 philosophy, they are suddenly going to be facing defenses tuned for matching that philosophy, and will be fighting GMs who understand that philosophy and want the same players. This is a recipe for disappointment.

 

[TomPatriot]

Section 8. Good Faith Negotiation: (a) In addition to complying with specific provisions in this Agreement, any Club, any player, and any player agent or contract advisor engaged in negotiations for a Player Contract (including any Club extending, and any player receiving, a Required Tender) is under an obligation to negotiate in good faith.

(b) A Club extending a Required Tender must, for so long as that Tender is extended, have a good faith intention to employ the player receiving the Tender at the Tender compensation level during the upcoming season. It shall be deemed to be a violation of this provision if, while the tender is outstanding, a Club insists that such a player agree to a Player Contract at a compensation level during the upcoming season below that of the Required Tender amount. The foregoing shall not affect any rights that a Club may have under the Player Contract or this Agreement, including but not limited to the right to terminate the contract, renegotiate the contract, or to trade the player if such termination, renegotiation, or trade is otherwise permitted by the Player Contract or this Agreement.

Pats and Butler don't have contract as he hasn't agreed to one or signed the RFA tender. SO, THEY CAN'T TALK ABOUT A TRADE UNTIL BUTLER SIGNS THE TENDER.


Oh and then there is Bill Belichick himself saying he doesn't talk trades with teams for unsigned players.

“They don’t have a signed contract. They can’t talk about trading a player that isn’t signed".

BELICHICK: PATS HAVEN'T TALKED TO PANTHERS ABOUT PEPPERS

Read Mike Florio's post that you quoted. Then read what you posted. Florio's right.

Maybe BB doesn't want to talk trades in the press, but the CBA doesn't prohibit trade talk after a tender is issued, but before a tender is signed. That's because the union will never file a grievance since the player is getting what he wants - much larger contract immediately. No union grieves a dispute under a CBA unless a member complains.

 

[DarrylS]

What was he supposed to do? Bring his pajamas for a sleepover?

You do realize it would have been illegal for Butler to sign any deal with NO besides a formal offer sheet which would cost NO their #11 and prevent any chance of a trade, right?

They could have entered into an agreement pending his signing of the tender and NE having agreed on compensation... IMO the Saints are probably not budging from the $4.9 they have to pay him for 2017, why would they?? Benevolence??

Teams are not exactly beating down MB's door, to work something out.. his agent is a rookie playing in the big leagues.

 

[Bill Lee]

I'd also like to think that by now he realizes that he is NOT going to get the same kind of top of the market CB deal that went to Norman, Sherman, Peterson, etc. He's good, but he's just not viewed as being that kind of guy. He's in a 2nd level, better than Ryan, but less than Peterson/Gilmore. It might not be a fair perception, but in the market place PERCEPTION rules.

It's more than perception when Butler's own team signs the big contract with Gilmore yet doesn't sign it with Butler.

The other thing I'm beginning to theorize is that NO might be coming to the conclusion that they really aren't in the position to give up even the #32 AND a 10-12MM/yr contract to a CB who, while being very good, isn't going to suddently make a dramatic change in that defense. They reside in a division where giants rule on the outside. So is Malcolm Butler really the answer here, or perhaps adding another Devon Breaux type with that #32. They are also in a weak cap situation where to add a big money contract would require them to heavily back load it, which is never a bright way to manage the cap.

The longer this goes on the more I will feel stronger that Butler will be back with the team. That being said, nother really HAS to happen until just before the draft.

I agree. The longer things draw out, the longer it appears that NO also doesn't see MB as being a game-changing player.

Mike Reiss posted similar thoughts on the time line at 5 AM. (BSPN: New England Patriots)

Also interesting that he writes:

Butler still hasn't signed tender. The Patriots gave Butler a first-round tender, at $3.91 million. Until Butler signs the tender, no trade could be executed.

He didn't say no trade can be discussed, he said no trade can be executed.

 

[aluminum seats]

So dumb Belichick won't just extend Butler. Don't know what he's saving all this money for.

The guy's an idiot.

 

[JMC00]

That exact language is in the CBA that was in effect in 2007 (http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/cba/nfl-cba-2006-2012.pdf) when NE and Miami had plenty of discussions about trading Welker while he was an unsigned RFA. So apparently NE (and MIA) didn't mind breaking the rules back then. And it was openly reported on and not hidden at all, either.

Ya but that's because the Patriots were still negotiating in good faith because they were still giving them the 2nd rounder that Welker was tendered with.

Now if NO wanted to give NE #11 and a 7th round pick it would be the same situation.

 

[PatriotsPimp136]

If the Saints give up #11 for Butler they are right there in the Rams and Browns league.

Butler's value is around 15. You could say the same if the pats traded butler for number 32. Butler's a very good cornerback. He's solid. If he stays we would have the best secondary along with the donkeys.

 

[XLIX]

They could have entered into an agreement pending his signing of the tender and NE having agreed on compensation... IMO the Saints are probably not budging from the $4.9 they have to pay him for 2017, why would they?? Benevolence??

Teams are not exactly beating down MB's door, to work something out.. his agent is a rookie playing in the big leagues.

You have no idea what you are talking about, as the above post demonstrates.

 

[IllegalContact]

You have no idea what you are talking about, as the above post demonstrates.

looking in the mirror again?

 

[XLIX]

Read Mike Florio's post that you quoted. Then read what you posted. Florio's right.

Maybe BB doesn't want to talk trades in the press, but the CBA doesn't prohibit trade talk after a tender is issued, but before a tender is signed. That's because the union will never file a grievance since the player is getting what he wants - much larger contract immediately. No union grieves a dispute under a CBA unless a member complains.

That's the key here. The teams are negotiating in good faith. Nobody is seeking to artificially de-value Butler's contract. The Patriots are not tendering him just to keep him in reserve then cut him prior to signing it. They have every intent to keep him for 2017 and pay him that tender amount if no other deal comes into play.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

I wouldn't mind getting back our #32 and either NOLA's 2nd or 3rd rounder.

This year's CB class is very deep

 

[jah]

Yeah but it's more the attitude you supported in that post.
There is no way a WR is not valuable to your team than a corner. Stopping the other team is at least equally as important as your own offense.
Brees has shown he can do reasonably well no matter who he is throwing to but can't win without a defense.

This is why the patriots are historically cheap on WRs. If you have brady he will elevate whoever you put at WR but he can't do anything to elevate your defense. Put the resources into the spots Brady can't carry.

You guys have done it backwards trying to overload him with weapons when he would be just fine with average ones and win a hell of a lot more with those resources spent on defense.

Do the Saints really invest highly in their offense, or just evaluate talent better? Obviously Brees was a huge FA signing, but who else in recent memory has done well for them?

Cooks - 1st round pick, looked like the exception to my point until they shipped him off
Thomas - 2nd round pick, cheap rookie deal
Colston - 7th round pick
Graham - 3rd round pick, traded when he wanted a payday
Snead - picked up from the scrap heap after washing out with the Browns as a UDFA

That OL is largely homegrown as well, with Armstead developing into a top LT from the 3rd round.

Come to think of it, the biggest contract I remember them handing out to a FA recently was on defense: Byrd. It was just a bad evaluation.

 

[Huckleberry1]

The guy's an idiot.

That's my sense as well, Belichick is clearly out of his league as a GM and has blown their chance at a great offseason. What a rube.