Patriots Rumor Butler & Saints working towards finalizing a deal (Thread now UFC Pats Fans Event)

[Ring 6]

I agreed it was speculation. What part of that did you not understand?

The part where you turn it into fact by saying they can't all be wrong. They are GUESSING. Your appeal to authority is based upon no fact at all.

Man, you really just can't help yourself, can you? Even when someone agrees with a statement you made, you still have to argue it.
No no, I'm sure you're right and everyone else is wrong. I am sure that there were no discussions for Butler, his name never came up, and everyone on the planet is wrong and you're right.

You are not agreeing. You are arguing right within the same paragraph thatbits a fact. Everyone in the planet? Try a couple of guys.

Yes after, like, 8 posts where everyone said how wrong you were and Miguel himself weighed in, you admitted I knew more about the subject than you do.

I said in about the second post that I could be wrong.
You still have not admitted you are wrong about discussing trades with RFAs. You are.
LOL admitted you know more. That's a good one. But hey you got one right. How many years did that take?

 

[XLIX]

i think this trade is over. no news at all 3 days later,

saints are not going to give him 12+ if they have to give up the #11 and pats will just match anything under 10 million. he will be a pat at lest one more year

I hope you're right, but 3 days - especially weekend days - is hardly a long enough period of time to have elapsed so that we can all say "whew, I guess that deal fell through!"

 

[aluminum seats]

I worked at a job for 5 years. Got someone hired who was my peer at a previous company and they hired him on at a higher pay grade. After the extra hours and effort I had put in I was pretty annoyed. I don't know why people think this sort of dynamic changes when there's more zeroes to the left of the decimal point.

I don't think that. He'll have the exact same shot at free agency that Gilmore had.

 

[ralmat55]

The rules might forbid direct contact between the Patriots and the Saints, but they can communicate through the media which is exactly what the Patriots are doing via Lombardi, Curran and Howe. The Patriots are just letting the Saints know their position is if you want the player it will cost you your 11th overall pick and nothing less.

Of course, the player and his agent can also act as intermediaries to broker a deal, which if it happens, is how it will get done. But, that's a tall order for even an experienced agent much less the inexperienced agent in Butler's employ.

 

[patsfan13]

Well the #11 pick this year would be great, it would also change the parameters if the Pats trade Jimmy G to the Browns. Rather than the #12 this year maybe #33 and a third ofr the Browns first pick NEXT year and one of their 3 second rd picks. With next year being a QB rich draft perhaps draft a QB with the Cleveland pick next year and have the Brady replacement ready.

 

[Ring 6]

The rules might forbid direct contact between the Patriots and the Saints, but they can communicate through the media which is exactly what the Patriots are doing via Lombardi, Curran and Howe. The Patriots are just letting the Saints know their position is if you want the player it will cost you your 11th overall pick and nothing less.

Of course, the player and his agent can also act as intermediaries to broker a deal, which if it happens, is how it will get done. But, that's a tall order for even an experienced agent much less the inexperienced agent in Butler's employ.

But there is no point to that.
There are 2 choices.
1) sign the tender
2) sign an offer sheet

The 3rd would be for butler to negotiate his own trade with the saints come back to the patriots and and agree to sign the tender of the patriots agree to trade him. This would require the patriots to negotiate what they would accept with butler and his agent which seems unrealistic.
There really is no other way.

 

[RIpats88]

Not sure why everyone thinks pats need to trade butler for #32. If they say no they keep him for a year. And if saints sogn him to a reasonable deal..pats will probably match.

We still dont know how much this trip was "i want out" or "go malcolm see if a team will pay you Unrestricted money"

 

[TomPatriot]

I am basing this on bill belichick and mike Lombardi saying so not a personal study of the cba.
I trust they know it better than I or you or anyone on this board. (With apologies to Miguel who probably knows it better than Lombardi )

When did BB and Lombardi say that? I don't recall that at all.

Many people, including Lombardi, seem to think that the Pats get the no. 11 pick if Butler signs a NO offer sheet and they don't match. That's far from clear if one looks at the language in the CBA.

Anyone can read the CBA. It's a public document. I have read the relevant parts and I don't see anything in it that supports your view that NO and NE cannot discuss trading Butler until he signs a contract, even though Butler would welcome the trade if it gets him the contract he wants. If there's another rule somewhere that covers this situation then tell me what it is and I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.

 

[JMC00]

Anyone can read the CBA. It's a public document. I have read the relevant parts and I don't see anything in it that supports your view that NO and NE cannot discuss trading Butler until he signs a contract,

Section 8. Good Faith Negotiation: (a) In addition to complying with specific provisions in this Agreement, any Club, any player, and any player agent or contract advisor engaged in negotiations for a Player Contract (including any Club extending, and any player receiving, a Required Tender) is under an obligation to negotiate in good faith.

(b) A Club extending a Required Tender must, for so long as that Tender is extended, have a good faith intention to employ the player receiving the Tender at the Tender compensation level during the upcoming season. It shall be deemed to be a violation of this provision if, while the tender is outstanding, a Club insists that such a player agree to a Player Contract at a compensation level during the upcoming season below that of the Required Tender amount. The foregoing shall not affect any rights that a Club may have under the Player Contract or this Agreement, including but not limited to the right to terminate the contract, renegotiate the contract, or to trade the player if such termination, renegotiation, or trade is otherwise permitted by the Player Contract or this Agreement.

Pats and Butler don't have contract as he hasn't agreed to one or signed the RFA tender. SO, THEY CAN'T TALK ABOUT A TRADE UNTIL BUTLER SIGNS THE TENDER.


Oh and then there is Bill Belichick himself saying he doesn't talk trades with teams for unsigned players.

“They don’t have a signed contract. They can’t talk about trading a player that isn’t signed".

BELICHICK: PATS HAVEN'T TALKED TO PANTHERS ABOUT PEPPERS

 

[fnordcircle]

I don't think that. He'll have the exact same shot at free agency that Gilmore had.

Are we talking about the technical details of free agency or are we talking about the emotions of a human being?

I mean if logic worked on emotions I'd probably think my marriage has a shot to last.

 

[TommyD4207]

Could you please provide the exact quote and context? I am not buying what you are selling. (Not to mention that even if it can't officially be done, that doesn't mean they couldn't have had "unofficial" talks about what BB would demand for, say, a hypothetical top-level CB the Pats had RFA rights to)

That would be a good way to lose a draft pick or six, especially considering both of those teams.

 

[SalemPats]

Not sure why everyone thinks pats need to trade butler for #32. If they say no they keep him for a year. And if saints sogn him to a reasonable deal..pats will probably match.

We still dont know how much this trip was "i want out" or "go malcolm see if a team will pay you Unrestricted money"

agreed, and does anyone think that we will leak anything out

 

[varjao]

If the Saints give up #11 for Butler they are right there in the Rams and Browns league.

 

[Ring 6]

When did BB and Lombardi say that? I don't recall that at all.

Many people, including Lombardi, seem to think that the Pats get the no. 11 pick if Butler signs a NO offer sheet and they don't match. That's far from clear if one looks at the language in the CBA.

Anyone can read the CBA. It's a public document. I have read the relevant parts and I don't see anything in it that supports your view that NO and NE cannot discuss trading Butler until he signs a contract, even though Butler would welcome the trade if it gets him the contract he wants. If there's another rule somewhere that covers this situation then tell me what it is and I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.

I posted lombardis tweet.
BB is on record saying exactly that regarding Julius peppers trade rumors when he was an RFA. It was written about this week but I don't remember by who.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Oh and then there is Bill Belichick himself saying he doesn't talk trades with teams for unsigned players.

“They don’t have a signed contract. They can’t talk about trading a player that isn’t signed".

BELICHICK: PATS HAVEN'T TALKED TO PANTHERS ABOUT PEPPERS

Butler didn't become an "unsigned player" until March 4th (or whenever the universal NFL contract expiration date is). Who knows what (legal!) conversations went on between NO and NE before then...

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Section 8. Good Faith Negotiation: (a) In addition to complying with specific provisions in this Agreement, any Club, any player, and any player agent or contract advisor engaged in negotiations for a Player Contract (including any Club extending, and any player receiving, a Required Tender) is under an obligation to negotiate in good faith.

(b) A Club extending a Required Tender must, for so long as that Tender is extended, have a good faith intention to employ the player receiving the Tender at the Tender compensation level during the upcoming season. It shall be deemed to be a violation of this provision if, while the tender is outstanding, a Club insists that such a player agree to a Player Contract at a compensation level during the upcoming season below that of the Required Tender amount. The foregoing shall not affect any rights that a Club may have under the Player Contract or this Agreement, including but not limited to the right to terminate the contract, renegotiate the contract, or to trade the player if such termination, renegotiation, or trade is otherwise permitted by the Player Contract or this Agreement.

That exact language is in the CBA that was in effect in 2007 (http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/cba/nfl-cba-2006-2012.pdf) when NE and Miami had plenty of discussions about trading Welker while he was an unsigned RFA. So apparently NE (and MIA) didn't mind breaking the rules back then. And it was openly reported on and not hidden at all, either.

 

[Ring 6]

Butler didn't become an "unsigned player" until March 4th (or whenever the universal NFL contract expiration date is). Who knows what (legal!) conversations went on between NO and NE before then...

You cannot discuss trading a player who is not under contract (this is not just part of the RFA rules it applies to any player). Therefore talking about trading a player after the league year starts when he isn't under contract for that league year is also obviously not allowed.
It's kind of simple. The patriots cannot trade Malcolm butler because Malcolm butler is not under contract. If you do not have the right to trade him then you are not allowed to discuss it, because clearly it violates the players rights under the CBA. You can't trade something you do not have rights to.
All those people out there arguing belichick violated league rules should be careful what you ask for if you want to have any draft picks in 2018.
Ted wells has used less than posts on this board saying it happened as proof to find guilt.

 

[Ring 6]

That exact language is in the CBA that was in effect in 2007 (http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/cba/nfl-cba-2006-2012.pdf) when NE and Miami had plenty of discussions about trading Welker while he was an unsigned RFA. So apparently NE (and MIA) didn't mind breaking the rules back then. And it was openly reported on and not hidden at all, either.

you are assuming this is the clause that rules which I think may not be the case.
The issue isn't whether you can trade or discuss trading an RFA who has been tendered the issue is whether you can trade or discuss trading any player who is not under contract.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

You cannot discuss trading a player who is not under contract (this is not just part of the RFA rules it applies to any player)

Are you even looking at what you're quoting or just quoting it blindly? Butler was under contract until March 4 (or March 9 or whatever). So NE and NO could have had plenty of completely legal discussions about Butler for a whole month between the Superbowl and then. Not to mention any conversations they may have had at any time during the season or postseason.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

you are assuming this is the clause that rules which I think may not be the case.
The issue isn't whether you can trade or discuss trading an RFA who has been tendered the issue is whether you can trade or discuss trading any player who is not under contract.

I actually tend to agree with you on that but I was replying to someone who was holding out that language as the source of the anti-discussion rule.