Lombardi believes Pats will trade Garoppolo to the Browns

[Huckleberry1]

IMO is all about supply vs demand.

By my amateur count, in CHI, CLE, NYJ and SF there are 4 teams with desperate QB situations and maybe a couple of others like AZ and maybe SD ($20m cap hit in 2017 and if Rivers leaves after June 1 its only a $6m hit) that might want to think seriously about how to free up cap space and get younger at the QB position.

While its very early, my understanding is the draft only has a couple of QBs with 1st round grades.

For QB FAs, you have Cutler and while there may be a suprise name out there, no one has the cache to save a franchise.

For those reasons, while I think Jimmy G is worth a high 2nd/low 1st, depending on how the market develops the NEP could be looking at a mid round 1st for Jimmy G.

Whereas imo the only thing that matters is the price Belichick sets on Garrapolo, as he holds all the cards and can wait through 2017 if he wants and could very well push the cap money needed into 2018 to tag him. If Belichick had to move him a late first or early second might be sufficient but I think Belichick puts a higher price on the value of Garrapolo than he did Cassel, and he's under much less pressure to move him so he sets the value high and makes teams come up to it.

 

[Ring 6]

Whereas imo the only thing that matters is the price Belichick sets on Garrapolo, as he holds all the cards and can wait through 2017 if he wants and could very well push the cap money needed into 2018 to tag him. If Belichick had to move him a late first or early second might be sufficient but I think Belichick puts a higher price on the value of Garrapolo than he did Cassel, and he's under much less pressure to move him so he sets the value high and makes teams come up to it.

These are the comments that make me curious.
What leads you to believe or think you know what value BB placed on the 2 players?
Cassell had played a full 11-5 season. He valued him enough to put the franchise tag on him.
Aside from that his would you know what bb is thinking?

 

[patsbrasilpatriotas]

IMO is all about supply vs demand.

By my amateur count, in CHI, CLE, NYJ and SF there are 4 teams with desperate QB situations and maybe a couple of others like AZ and maybe SD ($20m cap hit in 2017 and if Rivers leaves after June 1 its only a $6m hit) that might want to think seriously about how to free up cap space and get younger at the QB position.

While its very early, my understanding is the draft only has a couple of QBs with 1st round grades.

For QB FAs, you have Cutler and while there may be a suprise name out there, no one has the cache to save a franchise.

For those reasons, while I think Jimmy G is worth a high 2nd/low 1st, depending on how the market develops the NEP could be looking at a mid round 1st for Jimmy G.

I hope so, but there will be a lot of veteran options next year: Romo, Bradford(17m dollar cap hit / 13 cap savings if cut), Cutler, Fitztragic, and only 4 maybe 5 teams that will adress this position ( Bears, Browns, Jets,49rs AND BRONCOS), others will keep their mediocre QB ( Arizona, Bills, Texans, Bengals, Jaguars).

 

[RobertWeathers]

All those teams are way more than a QB away. Forget it's the patriots and realize those teams are building for the long term. Do you take the 15th (or whatever) best guy who is 20-21 years old and bring him into your system ( which you believe is the right system) and develop the talent or give away the pick for a guy who is 25 (or whatever he is I didn't look it up) and had say for 3 years playing in a unique system that needs a guy as good as Tom Brady to run it and no one else who came from it ever went in to success elsewhere.

With competent coaching, a solid FA & draft and a competent QB there is no reason a 5-11 team cannot become a 9-7 team or better the next year or two years later. See OAK.

If a team believes it has the personnel now to win in 1-2 years, they will take a 25 year old player with experience in the league over a 21 year old kid. Plus Qb's last longer than other positional players so age is not as big of a deal as you make it out to be.

Plus these teams cannot afford to go into 2017 with ****ty expectations. They need to at least have the chance to win now and a competent QB gets them there as opposed to another hopeless season.

I know we think those teams emulate and worship at the feet of the patriots and beg for scraps but that really isn't the case.

Emulate no. Respect and find value, absolutely. Cassell, Hoyer, even ****ball Ryan Mallett is a backup in BAL. The do a nice job coaching QBs and its obvious other teams agree.

 

[patsbrasilpatriotas]

Andy-youre WAY off base here. You dont know better than anyone else what another qb-starved team will or wont offer for jg. Youre acting like you know this for a fact.

Nobody here has said the pats are going to get the #1 pick for jg for a FACT-people have merely speculated that its not impossible. It only came up because of lombardis quote of cleve will try to trade for jg and they will probably have the #1 pick. No ones even saying its the most LIKELY scenario.But for you to unequivically say NO WAY is ridiculous.

Some of the reasons you mentioned above actually ADD to jgs value, not subtract from it. , e.g. 3 years watching tb12 and being in the most complex offense in the league-that ADDS GREATLY to jgs value-jg is worth MUCH more today than he was 3 years ago.

The questions people had about him coming out of college are similar to the questions most college qbs have today-he had almost ZERO college exp. snapping from center and playing primarily from the pocket-knowing how to read defenses, going thru progressions. He now has 3 valuable years of experience with that.

In a qb-starved nfl-where you have very little shot of contending for anything w/o at least a GOOD qb-it only takes one team to make the move. JG is an upgrade over at least 1/3 of current nfl starters. Its a weak qb draft. Pats will never have more leverage in atrade than this offseason. If they tagged him(doubt theyd do that), then they lose most of their leverage for 2018-then maybe they DONT get a 1st rounder.

I think a 1st round pick is very reasonable for jg-a 2nd rounder who has become much more valuable today than he was 3 years ago. If youre a team that needs a qb-a crappy team especially, look around the nfl and the draft-what are your options? Romo only makes sense for a team that has a lot of talent everywhere but qb. For teams like cleve, chi etc. what other options do they have?

I agree.. Romo makes sense for two teams: Broncos and Cardinals.

 

[patsbrasilpatriotas]

With competent coaching, a solid FA & draft and a competent QB there is no reason a 5-11 team cannot become a 9-7 team or better the next year or two years later. See OAK.

If a team believes it has the personnel now to win in 1-2 years, they will take a 25 year old player with experience in the league over a 21 year old kid. Plus Qb's last longer than other positional players so age is not as big of a deal as you make it out to be.

Plus these teams cannot afford to go into 2017 with ****ty expectations. They need to at least have the chance to win now and a competent QB gets them there as opposed to another hopeless season.



Emulate no. Respect and find value, absolutely. Cassell, Hoyer, even ****ball Ryan Mallett is a backup in BAL. The do a nice job coaching QBs and its obvious other teams agree.

With and OLine and a beast QB you can become 11-1

 

[Huckleberry1]

I agree.. Romo makes sense for two teams: Broncos and Cardinals.

I don't see Jones trading him to a contender for the Super Bowl.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Whereas imo the only thing that matters is the price Belichick sets on Garrapolo, as he holds all the cards and can wait through 2017 if he wants and could very well push the cap money needed into 2018 to tag him.

Exactly. By moving Jimmy BB assumes risk. While TB12 is playing at a high level and it seems he has a good chance to do it again in 2017, he is 39- not 27. He has a more than adequate QB in Jimmy. There is no need to rush trading him when you don't need to rush. The need to get whatever the compensation for Jimmy that makes the business risk worth it.

With that said, we also have no idea what they think of Brissett. If BB thinks this kid will be a legit backup next year then BB has a little more flexibility.

As we have seen with Cassell, based on his value BB will franchise a QB that has no earthly chance of starting. He just needs the cap room to do so. While they do lose a bit of leverage in tagging him, they still maintain his rights and can get something...

If Belichick had to move him a late first or early second might be sufficient but I think Belichick puts a higher price on the value of Garrapolo than he did Cassel, and he's under much less pressure to move him so he sets the value high and makes teams come up to it.

I agree. Plus IIRC I dont think there was a big market for Cassell as he was perceived as more of a system guy surrounded by elite talent which is why KC (Pioli, Weis) was really the only team in on him.

I think the market will be bigger for Jimmy. Not sure how much more as its still developing.

 

[jimnance]

I'm way off base to say Jimmy g won't get traded for the #1 overall pick? Come on.

I know that we want to believe other teams are going to our more value in him by association but Matt cassell Brian hoyer Ryan mallet Kevin O'Connell matt Gutierrez show that just doesn't happen.

Teams will not give up very high picks for a guy who is already 3 years older and hasn't answered the questions that made him but be a high pick to begin with other than in a pretty good game and a half of a very good one.

Fans on this board were saying we would be lucky to go 2-2 with him. 6 quarters isn't going to make this a 180.
I wish it would but remember fans here were talking about the #1 (ok they were nuts) or first pick in round 2 from Houston for Ryan mallet.

While I agree it's highly unlikely Pats would get the #1 overall, its not impossible. It would obviously require a bidding war. When this subject first arose, I only responded that I'd gladly take the #1 if it was offered- not that I actually expected it to be offered. But that's different than saying impossible. But I do think some kind of 1st rounder is gettable. I also think its common sense that jg is worth more now than he was 3 years ago. Since I view you as a poster who has a lot of common sense and is generally well-informed, I'm surprised you don't see that.

 

[Ring 6]

With competent coaching, a solid FA & draft and a competent QB there is no reason a 5-11 team cannot become a 9-7 team or better the next year or two years later. See OAK.

If a team believes it has the personnel now to win in 1-2 years, they will take a 25 year old player with experience in the league over a 21 year old kid. Plus Qb's last longer than other positional players so age is not as big of a deal as you make it out to be.

Plus these teams cannot afford to go into 2017 with ****ty expectations. They need to at least have the chance to win now and a competent QB gets them there as opposed to another hopeless season.

You act like they are getting 25 year old Brady. All of those things could make sense although keeping the puck to build your team does too but you are basing this in assuming 6 quarters of football in 3 years turns the opinion around from a 2nd or 3rd round prospect to a must have franchise guy. I don't think NFL gems see it that way.

Emulate no. Respect and find value, absolutely. Cassell, Hoyer, even ****ball Ryan Mallett is a backup in BAL. The do a nice job coaching QBs and its obvious other teams agree.

Kc regrets the cassell trade and the others are journeyman that no one ever gave anything up for and are hanging around as scrubs.

The proof of every other QB but Brady is that BBs system does not lead to a QB who succeed elsewhere or that other teams would put more value on.

 

[farn]

If Cleveland has the first pick - and is willing to part with both the first pick of the SECOND round & another strong pick, either in 17 or 18, I think BB's gotta do some serious thinking.

 

[Ring 6]

While I agree it's highly unlikely Pats would get the #1 overall, its not impossible. It would obviously require a bidding war. When this subject first arose, I only responded that I'd gladly take the #1 if it was offered- not that I actually expected it to be offered. But that's different than saying impossible. But I do think some kind of 1st rounder is gettable. I also think its common sense that jg is worth more now than he was 3 years ago. Since I view you as a poster who has a lot of common sense and is generally well-informed, I'm surprised you don't see that.

It is impossible.
It's a 25 year old guy who has sat for most of 3 years and played 6 quarters.
Why would he have more value? He played 6 quarters in 3 years.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Browns have "astronomical" draft grade on pass rusher, could use other first rounder on quarterback Browns have "astronomical" grade on Myles Garrett, could use other 1st on QB


If the Browns have any sense at all they'll do what Oakland did a few years ago.

Draft Garrett w/out hesitation and use their other ammo on a QB.

Garrett is straight out of a Hollywood casting call for an NFL player. He's enormous and not close to being done filling out. One of most intriguing things about him is his body could easily hold another 10-15lbs w/out missing a beat. He's 6'5/275 rn.

He can stop the run and shed blocks. He'll chase down a runner from 20 yards away. Never sell out for stats. Very nice motor on top of that.

Brings single arm stab, bull rush, swim and has more than enough bend to beat the T around the loop.

As close as there is to a future HOF.

 

[The Gr8est]

Well there goes that dream... and Garrett's career.

I think that might actually enhance the chances of the Browns trading for Jimmy.

The consensus seems to be that there are no franchise QBs in the upcoming draft. The Browns could keep the #1 overall and still have plenty of picks left to trade for a franchise QB.

The Browns might think getting Garrett at #1 and a franchise QB would make them a contender, or at least relevant.

Now add in competition from other teams and the Pats may be able to get a nice package of a #1 pick plus.

 

[Ring 6]

With and OLine and a beast QB you can become 11-1

Right because it happened once.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I hope so, but there will be a lot of veteran options next year: Romo, Bradford(17m dollar cap hit / 13 cap savings if cut), Cutler, Fitztragic, and only 4 maybe 5 teams that will adress this position ( Bears, Browns, Jets,49rs AND BRONCOS), others will keep their mediocre QB ( Arizona, Bills, Texans, Bengals, Jaguars).

They key difference in all of those names is Jimmy G is in his mid-20s with NFL experience While his sample size is small, he did extremely well.

I think the Donkeys like Seimien.

AZ- Palmer is old and has a 24m cap hit next year and will cost them 6m to cut him. They need to re-do that deal.

I think CIN and the Bills think they are fine.

Texans need to keep thei QB another year or its a death blow to their cap.

I have no idea what to make of Bortles. He kinda on the cheap for a starting Qb. I bet they keep him another year.

 

[RobertWeathers]

With and OLine and a beast QB you can become 11-1

Yea look at DAL.

Monster O-line.
Monster RB
Monster WR
Nice slot WR
Savvy vet TE
Ok defense.

The real key is the o-line and a couple guys to throw to or hand the ball off too to keep the pressure off.

Andy is right in that respect. The teams mentioned are dearth of quality talent on the offensive side of the ball.

 

[Ring 6]

Here is a good exercise for people in this discussion. Hypothetically, BB and Jeff fisher want to put together a trade including Jared goff and Jimmy g. From the rams perspective how much more in terms of picks should they have to receive or conversely be willing to add to the deal.
I.e. Goff for Jimmy g plus or minus what picks.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You act like they are getting 25 year old Brady. All of those things could make sense although keeping the puck to build your team does too but you are basing this in assuming 6 quarters of football in 3 years turns the opinion around from a 2nd or 3rd round prospect to a must have franchise guy. I don't think NFL gems see it that way.

How did I make out Jimmy G is like Brady? I said with the right talent around him and good coaching, Jimmy can help an NFL team win. You disagree with that?

Who gives a crap if he sat on the bench for two years? He produced pretty damn well at an NFL level and totally justified his draft status which was a 2nd rder. That is actual performance vs an NFL defense in which the kid did pretty damn well which is a helluva lot more data than an unproven 21 year old kid from Notre Dame or North Carolina that is a projected mid-late 1st rounder. That is how an NFL GM looks at it.

Kc regrets the cassell trade and the others are journeyman that no one ever gave anything up for and are hanging around as scrubs.

KC doesnt regret the trade. They regret the contract that they gave him. Plus he too them to the playoffs his 2nd year and make the probowl. Its wasn't a complete bust.

The proof of every other QB but Brady is that BBs system does not lead to a QB who succeed elsewhere or that other teams would put more value on.

Mallett found success in BAL which is a non-BB system. Hoyer was successful in CLE and CHI which are non-BB systems.

 

[Rob0729]

I just hope the Browns overrate Garoppolo as much as many people on this board do. The Pats could get both their first rounders for him and possibly a second.