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How about a position by position breakdown of why the defense is struggling?

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(side note to @Deus Irae and @luuked I’m curious why you don’t seem Brown as a Wilfork type, since physically he seems closer to that than a Warren, who was much taller. Not saying you’re wrong, just curious.)

I was referring to his game. He's not a dominant point of attack guy, who can stone double teams and press the pocket against the pass, like a Wilfork. He's not a tremendous all around guy like Seymour. He's a run defender who'd thrive as a third wheel, and who might be able to take advantage of the other guys getting all the extra attention. He's just in a position where he really needs to play above his level, and he can't do it.
 
  • Darren Wolfson is hearing that the Patriots made a run at Vikings DE Stephen Weatherly in recent days, which explains why the team promoted him to their active roster.
Thats what BB should have done with A Johnson ..

He was one of my draft binkies, and I was honestly surprised we didn't take him in the later rounds. I know we worked him out at his pro day. Would have been nice to see him here after all.
 
Belichick himself disagrees and said a couple weeks ago the defense has been disappointing. I think this was the week before the Seahawks game, too.

"I think overall, we had our ups and downs. At times we played well defensively and at other times, not so well. It was good enough to win. It was good at times and then at other times I think we really – I think we’re all disappointed, so we really just need to do a better job. That’s pretty much across the board – the running game, the passing game, everything. I mean there were some things that just, we need to do better."
Belichick himself disagrees and said a couple weeks ago the defense has been disappointing. I think this was the week before the Seahawks game, too.

"I think overall, we had our ups and downs. At times we played well defensively and at other times, not so well. It was good enough to win. It was good at times and then at other times I think we really – I think we’re all disappointed, so we really just need to do a better job. That’s pretty much across the board – the running game, the passing game, everything. I mean there were some things that just, we need to do better."
You missed AT TIMES part.
 
I was referring to his game. He's not a dominant point of attack guy, who can stone double teams and press the pocket against the pass, like a Wilfork. He's not a tremendous all around guy like Seymour. He's a run defender who'd thrive as a third wheel, and who might be able to take advantage of the other guys getting all the extra attention. He's just in a position where he really needs to play above his level, and he can't do it.
Gotcha. Well, here's hoping you're wrong...even Wilfork--lite would be very welcome here. (Wilfork-lite, now there's an oxymoron for you...)
 
The 2007 Patriots offense scored 14 points in the Super Bowl. It was still arguably the greatest NFL offense of all time.
Logic like that leads to Peyton Manning was the GOAT QB.
For many games it was the best offense ever, but failing when it mattered cannot be ignored.
 
Logic like that leads to Peyton Manning was the GOAT QB.

Only to people who don't bother thinking. A one-off loss is different than a history of choking.

For many games it was the best offense ever, but failing when it mattered cannot be ignored.

Now you're just being silly. The '85 Bears, widely considered to be the team with the greatest defense ever, had a game where they got lit up to the tune of 38 points. These things happen. Unfortunately, for the 2007 Patriots, they picked the worst day possible to have their worst offensive output of the season.
 
I watch every game. They play Bend don't break. They are 8 and 2. What value is your eye test? You know nothing. Do you know more than Belichick? He chooses bend dont break in today's NFL and has stated several times and not just this year that Points Against number one defensive stat. I would believe Belichick over you regarding football for sure.

Hey Stephen, your dad is elite but his 2016 defense sucks

Bend don't break is great against awful teams, which is all you've played this season.

Well, except for one, who hung 31 on your ass on you dopey home field.

This has nothing to do with me thinking I know more than he does about football, but I do know the defense isn't very good, and he knows it too.
 
Only to people who don't bother thinking. A one-off loss is different than a history of choking.



Now you're just being silly. The '85 Bears, widely considered to be the team with the greatest defense ever, had a game where they got lit up to the tune of 38 points. These things happen. Unfortunately, for the 2007 Patriots, they picked the worst day possible to have their worst offensive output of the season.
If that game were the SB no one would consider them the best defense ever.

I totally understand your point, and over the sum total of all of their games, they were one of if not the best ever, but in my judgment winning matters most, and you aren't the best of anything if you don't get it done when it matters most, and finish the job.
We are grading on a different scale, which is fine.
 
The '85 Bears, widely considered to be the team with the greatest defense ever, had a game where they got lit up to the tune of 38 points. These things happen.
Totally OT, but as satisfying as it was for the Pats to get to that Super Bowl, as a football fan it would have been great to have seen the Bears-Dolphins rematch that year.
 
Hey Stephen, your dad is elite but his 2016 defense sucks

Bend don't break is great against awful teams, which is all you've played this season.

Well, except for one, who hung 31 on your ass on you dopey home field.

This has nothing to do with me thinking I know more than he does about football, but I do know the defense isn't very good, and he knows it too.
Bend but don't break is 195-71, with 22 playoff wins, 4 SB Championships, 6 AFCC, and no season worse that being in the final 4 in 6 years.
Bend but don't break is smarter than you.
 
It's clear that the defense is in trouble. Anyone denying that just needs to look at what BB's actions have been. So, with that in mind, I thought a thread breaking down the issues by position might be in order.

DT/DE
OLB/ILB
CB
S
Specialty spots (nickel, pass rush specialist, etc...)

So let's have at it...
What, you expect US to do it?

I was expecting pages of your keen analysis, and you just dropped it in our laps?!?

First, it's kind of depressing. I vote we all look back at this in the late evening of February 5th, and laugh.

Second, there are some bright spots, and Bill and Matt need to just turn these guys in the right direction and I believe this can work.

Third, I'd do exactly as you did. Hey, I know how to delegate authority. Plus, I tire easily.
 
LOL.......the bigger question is: who would not be here if Jones was still here

be careful what you ask for.......it's not like this defense was blazes last year
 
Totally OT, but as satisfying as it was for the Pats to get to that Super Bowl, as a football fan it would have been great to have seen the Bears-Dolphins rematch that year.
You do speak for a lot of fans, nationally.

But from an objective standpoint, which always seems to result in defending our team, the Patriots were the best team in the AFC that year.

The national consensus beforehand was that the Patriots had no chance. As always, this was based purely on ignorance, stupidity and media hype. But it had a ton of substance, in terms of quarterback.

At least here, now, can people appreciate a little how much difference the right quarterback starting can make in the effectiveness of a team? Hmm? You want to know what would have happened if Drew Bledsoe had "kept his job" in '01? Just look at 1988, there you go.

The relevance of most of us taking extreme exception to the team's strategy, specifically the starting QB, is that it was before the opening kickoff, not at halftime or afterwards. Grogan was healed from his injury, and the list of reasons for him to start is endless, or about as long as the list of reasons Flutie needed to stay in there to finish the season three years later.

The odds of a blowout loss were far less, and the odds of a competitive game were far more, with Grogan starting the game. The odds of Dan Marino squeezing into Tony's uniform fluless and passing all over the Bears' D were zero.
 
Bend but don't break is 195-71, with 22 playoff wins, 4 SB Championships, 6 AFCC, and no season worse that being in the final 4 in 6 years.
Bend but don't break is smarter than you.
Well if you put it THAT way, then, yeah, yup...Yes.
 
What, you expect US to do it?

I was expecting pages of your keen analysis, and you just dropped it in our laps?!?

First, it's kind of depressing. I vote we all look back at this in the late evening of February 5th, and laugh.

Second, there are some bright spots, and Bill and Matt need to just turn these guys in the right direction and I believe this can work.

Third, I'd do exactly as you did. Hey, I know how to delegate authority. Plus, I tire easily.
I tend to look at it from the other direction.
Despite whatever people want to call problems, the defense has been tremendous at keeping points off the board, which absolutely is job 1.
Rather than calling 8-2, with the 3rd fewest points allowed, a defense that has played so well that the best defense in the history of all football would have one more win, a failure, the conversation should really be about the real issue, which is despite the defense getting the job done almost entirely people are afraid it won't continue.

To really discuss it you have to realize that this defense is unlike any other in the NFL. It is first and foremost about preventing big plays, being consistent and playing team defense. It is not about taking excessive risks to make big plays, primarily because if there are no big plays on either side (Patriot D vs opponent O) the Patriots are going to win. It is not worth risking it becoming big play vs big play because that only helps the underdog. If we stunk, BB would be the most aggressive coach in the NFL, but when you have a better team, the odds favor playing conservative.
This defense is not about individuals. Lesser players who have the correct strengths do better for this defense than better players who do not. (ie a Vrabel or Ninkovich vs a Freeney).

Player wise, the concern about corners, IMO, is overblown. That is the NFL in 2016. Offenses typically complete 20+ passes for 250+ yards game in and game out. To think a corner allowing a handful of those sucks is to not be paying attention. To think a corner allowing more than a handful of those playing a scheme that says whatever you do, don't get beaten deep sucks is really not understanding how the game is played.

LB is a concern, because its Hightower and ?. However, we have become a 2 LB 5 DB base defense, so to be an effective team defense we need to just mix and match a bunch of guys into that one role, many of which were at least at one point highly regarded. Finding what a #1 pick who has lost his shine can contribute to a rotation seems like a decent problem to have.

DL is a mixed bag. As a unit, I would say they have been very good against the run, considering they are doing it from a nickel base with DBs playing take the big play away as first priority.
The pass rush could be better, but this is a heavily overblown issue. Offense in the NFL has become about making sure you get rid of the ball before the defender can get to your QB even if the block is missed. Probably 80% of pass plays negate the rush with the design of the play. Here, mobile QBs negate the rush as well because the philosophy of not allowing the big play says rush conservatively and do leave escape lanes to create big plays.
Certainly though there are times when pass rush is key, but it is a lot less frequent than people want to think. If there is a concern with this team, it is that if a good pocket QB wants to sit back there (particularly 2 minute drill times) and run complex slow developing routes, the individual pass rushing skills of our DL are not great.

Overall what matters is team defense and allowing one less point than you score. Which means what is most important is not the average stats of 1000 plays over the course of a season, but what the unit does when the game is on the line. We really have no way of knowing how that will go until it happens.
 
Bend but don't break is 195-71, with 22 playoff wins, 4 SB Championships, 6 AFCC, and no season worse that being in the final 4 in 6 years.
Bend but don't break is smarter than you.

LOL are you on pills?

No, the bend but don't break defense is responsible for very little of that. The defense was elite early on. Then it sucked. Fortunately the offense became all worldly and has been pretty ridiculous with Tom running the show ever since. My god, stop being ridiculous.
 
LOL are you on pills?

No, the bend but don't break defense is responsible for very little of that. The defense was elite early on. Then it sucked. Fortunately the offense became all worldly and has been pretty ridiculous with Tom running the show ever since. My god, stop being ridiculous.
The defense in 16 years has allowed the 3rd fewest points in the NFL. You can break it down over whatever periods you want, and it is similar. Bill Belichicks defenses keep points off the board and win games, and championships.
I'm sure you are all for firing BB and bringing that aggressive big winner Rex Ryan, right?

As I said, bend don't break is smarter than you, so I don't expect you to get it.
 
Sure.

DE - There simply is no difference maker at this spot. The closest thing we have right now is Flowers. Sheard at times has been okay but he needs to get back into it. Nink is just okay and his age is showing some but he can still set the edge which Sheard generally does okay too. We simply lack pass rushing ability. Long occasionally makes a good play but barely above a JAG. Basically we have 4 rotational guys as of now which on the whole keeps it being better then it would be if we had no rotation but we lack that clear #1 guy.

DT - Brown has under performed this year. He isn't bad but just isn't good. Branch has been the best DT on the field on the whole but he isn't always consistent. Valentine provides a few nice players here and there but doesn't do much and needs more experience. No 4th guy worth mentioning. This unit again has no single stand up player to rely upon though Branch is the closest.

Overall the DL needs a talent injection and it is not like we have not spent picks here. Something to draft and get in FA.

LB - The Hightower show. He is very good but when he is off his game this unit has no one. Van Noy showed okay last game but Roberts has cooled off and McCellin/Mingo have not done much with their chances. Basically again need something here or one of Van Noy/Roberts to step up. At this point I would not expect it from McCellin/Mingo and certainly not Freeney.

CB - This unit gets a lot of crap but not justified always. Butler is of course the guy and he been playing at a probowl level the past few weeks again. It comes down to Rowe/Ryan. They have good and bad stretches but in the end Coleman/Jones won't help this year or at all. We just need to keep Rowe/Ryan in and hope for the best. At times they can both be good.

S - Usually a very good unit but just not a play making unit. Chung is on a bad streak right now but i think he will right it. This unit of McCourty/Harmon/Chung however can only slow down the losing usually and not make a play to help us win.

Basically it comes down to the CBs playing up to what they can and hoping the talent on the DL (Sheard, Brown, Valentine, Flowers) matures or plays up.

Great reply!!

DE - I agree, but if you remember CJ was a non factor in SB and we used to only have 2 ED, now we have two young promising guys ( Van Noy and Flowers) and 3 quality backups to rest them ( Ninko, Sheard, Long). I agree that we lack a playmaker as CJ but maybe one or both of them - Van Noy / Flowers - will become a 10+ sack guys. Next year this could be our #1 need, but if Van Noy and Flowers keep the pace i am not that concerned... If they pan out they should use our #3.a pick here / if they don't use our #2...

DT- We need a playmaker here i agree but I am happy with Brown and Valentine ( don't get all the criticism), Branch is playing really well, but again we don't have a playmaker... And that's why we should spend our #1 pick next year here...

CB/S - Rowe is very good IMO and Ryan when assigned a specif job is a competent CB#2- the lack of pass rush was killing him, let's see if he improve with a better F7 - if they sign him for a reasonable contract i am happy with our combo... Our S can make plays when Patricia let them to do so... Chung last game had a sack, but the play calling is always so conservative.. Cyrus can play the slot CB and Coleman is fine for our #5 spot... If they retain Harmon.. This unit is young and i would not spend a pick in next year's draft here..

LB - “They didn’t know where to put me [in Detroit] and here, they want me here and I’m happy to be wanted,” said Van Noy. That's why Van Noy is not here. McClellin is not the answer, Mingo is a ST guy only. They need to spend at least two picks here.. Our #2 and 3.b and they can bring a veteran to help this unit... HT + 2 high picks + a quality veteran and one of our current guys Mingo/Freeny...
 
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