How about a position by position breakdown of why the defense is struggling?

[long distance]

Points allowed, in the way which you are referring, is irrelevant to this discussion. We're discussing the actual defense, not the scoreboard. If you don't think this defense has some serious issues, you're blind.

Sure. Brady + BB = Awesome

That's not really the point, though, is it?

Number of SBs the Patriots have actually won without a quality defense = 0

That's really the point of the concern about the defense.

That leaves us looking, and realizing:

Can this become a quality defense? Probably not this year. BB seems to have misread what he had pretty badly, for whatever reason.

Can this team win the SB anyway? Maybe. The AFC sucks, and the NFC doesn't have any team that's so good on defense that Brady has not shot to keep up a good scoring pace if needed. But, if they do it, it'll be the first time in the Brady/BB era that they've won without a quality defense.


edit: And after I posted the above, a second paragraph appeared in your post. I'll leave this as my response to the first paragraph, even understanding that your second paragraph makes my response mostly redundant.

Seeing D issues as serious is too subjective to call other opinion blind. There are issues some fans see, we're discussing them .. knowing it might not be close to what BB or MP see.
(then again every D has issues - its the way the current league is designed)

Our “objective“ view of current D might be somewhat blinded by great expectations most people here had during preseason. Some, including myself, thought it could be spectacular at times and we're certainly not seeing that.

Calling off the chance this D becomes a solid unit you can count on in playoffs (and thats what it really comes down to) is still too early .. however late in the season it is.

Keep in mind that this is the only D in the league that is basically not allowing big plays. Thats a very important aspect come playoff time. They don't allow the “momentum“ change. (Most of dangerous momentum changes came from the penalties on O - Hogan vs Bills or Solder vs 49ers f.e.). And that means that the O will always have a chance to win a game. That might not be good enough for some but it might be good enough for success in playoffs.


PS
Thanks for the thread with the emphasis on the field/film and drama-free discussion.

 

[mosslost]

Wow. I guess you don't watch the games. Just wow.

I watch every game. They play Bend don't break. They are 8 and 2. What value is your eye test? You know nothing. Do you know more than Belichick? He chooses bend dont break in today's NFL and has stated several times and not just this year that Points Against number one defensive stat. I would believe Belichick over you regarding football for sure.

 

[long distance]

Here another valid point from Hill:

Hightower is at his most dangerous when he’s allowed the crash the line of scrimmage and bother the quarterback, but he hasn’t been able to do that with Elandon Roberts because Roberts can’t drop into coverage like Collins could. Trading Collins made Hightower less effective, although the strong performance of Kyle Van Noy makes for an intriguing development and possible return for Hightower.


Maybe we might see some more of exchanged roles of High and Roberts, sending Roberts (and/or Van Noy) after the QB ..

_
full article: Matt Patricia talks about Jamie Collins, Jabaal Sheard, and failed expectations

 

[skinnydog]

I don't want to interject too much, this early in the thread, so I'll try to limit my opinions for now (doubtless to the joy of many ). I will say that I've called Brown more of a Ty Warren type than a Vince Wilfork or Richard Seymour type. I still think that's a fair call with him.

Well so far you nailed it on Brown. You're doing great so far.

 

[skinnydog]

I think it is a bit of everything. Lets not crown Chandler Jones something he was not. He was pretty good but highly inconsistent and never really took over a game. He would have a few pretty good games then not show up for long stretches. Would we be better off with him? Yes we would but it is not like he was ever anything much better than what we had and it would only make it a little better. Sheard stinking it up is the single biggest issue as he was down right nasty at times last year but that has not shown up at all this year.

The DTs is just missing on draft picks so far. Brown hasn't made the jump we hoped and Easley was a bust. It was not like they didn't try.

Let's nor undersell Jones either. Is he a Vaughn Miller type of dynamic rusher, no. But he consistently pushed the pocket when rushing and a double sack guy. He was also a player the other team had game plan against. Outside of Hightower this team really has no one opposing offenses have to account for on each play.

 

[skinnydog]

I watch every game. They play Bend don't break. They are 8 and 2. What value is your eye test? You know nothing. Do you know more than Belichick? He chooses bend dont break in today's NFL and has stated several times and not just this year that Points Against number one defensive stat. I would believe Belichick over you regarding football for sure.

Do you believe Belichik thinks his defense is the 3rd best in the league this year?

 

[skinnydog]

What about letting both Wilfork and Hicks move on?

Hated seeing Hicks go.

 

[Uptown]

Interesting....

NFL Notes: Draft, 49ers, Eagles, Packers & Patriots - NFLTradeRumors.co

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

I think that the team of Brown and Branch have been good. Branch hits like a truck and he will be missed. Brown has shown promise and is a steady performer.

The DE have been awful, in addition to a complete lack of a pass rush, there are times on running plays where the DE is not anywhere to be seen! They are not setting the edge and forcing runs back inside. They can get pressure on the passer, and even worse is that they have a tendency to try and duck inside on the pass rush which has allowed the QB to get out of the pocket.

Hightower is a great player, but now he is being asked to carry too much. The trade of Collins will never sit right with me, the only move worse than that was the one to get rid of Chandler Jones.

McClellan is awful, slow and not stout enough in the run. Basically everything you are NOT looking for in a LB.

Roberts has been a pleasant surprise, but his lack of size hurts him.

Niko is not the man he used to be.

Butler has been great both in coverage and especially against the run. He has made more big hits than all of the safeties combined.

They rest of the CB are "hot garbage", how bad can Cyrus Jimes be that he can't break into this line up? That being said, I'd take Rowe over Ryan.

Chung has been up and down, he can still make a good play, but sometimes he gets lost out there.

Harmon and McCourty's picture should be on every Hood carton in the Northeast! Harmon has one INT and McCourty has none. No big plays, no turnovers, no big hits. McCourty got burnt again for a TD last Sunday. You would think a former Pro Bowl CB would be able to cover a JAG TE. For the life of me I can't see how anyone thinks he is any good, let alone "elite". His contract is an albatross around the Pats salary cap beck that will stay there for at least another two years!

Watch a Vikings game with Smith and Rhodes and count how many big plays they make.

The bottom line is the ridiculous trade of Chandler Jones probably cost the Pats any real hope of the Super Bowl before the first snap of the season ever took place. The trade of Collins, just sealed it.

When you have a playmaker on defense, they make everyone around them better. For years teams had to double Vince or he would stop there running game. Teams had to game plan on how to block Jones. He was good for at least 5 strip sacks a season! Nothing swings a game as much as a turnover.

And speaking of turnovers, it would be nice to see some....

The 49ers and Jets will provide some deodorant for this defense. But the bottom line is they can not compete with the likes of Seattle, Dallas, or Denver.

 

[aluminum seats]

Good thread. A couple of thoughts:

--Most here analyze the Pats through the prism of how well-positioned they are to win the Super Bowl. Not compete, not have a good record, make the playoffs, etc. Point being I don’t have much time for those calling out “whiners” or “spoiled Pats fans” or whatever. The points against being low doesn’t mean much in this conversation.

The Pats conservative philosophy positions them well to win bushels of regular season games. Their QB & offense is terrific, and the league is….well, it’s terrible. It’s a lot of bad teams. So Pats let teams move the ball a bit, with the assumption that they’ll screw up before they score a TD. And they usually do.

So the Pats will get a bye each year, and then have a home game to play for the AFC Championship. Even that first playoff game is usually against a pretty limited team. It’s the championship game and Super Bowl that they play tough competition and it’s for THOSE TWO GAMES most of this conversation is for.

--Like with most things, there’s no one answer. There has of course been a talent drain with the defensive players who have left, whatever you think of those moves. The question to me always comes down to, who has played above expectations and/or prior levels vs. who has played below?

I’m hard-pressed to think of a lot of guys who have played above expectations, although it seems like Butler just keeps getting better. On the flip side, Sheard, Chung, Ryan et al, Brown (side note to @Deus Irae and @luuked I’m curious why you don’t seem Brown as a Wilfork type, since physically he seems closer to that than a Warren, who was much taller. Not saying you’re wrong, just curious.) And they haven’t had that guy, like Long, who comes in and fulfills that long-shot hope you might have. So it’s been a bunch of guys with few playing above what you’d expect and a few playing below. Result=mediocrity. (And that’s with health). And by extension, I don’t think the coaching has placed these players in the best position to succeed, although that’s a much longer conversation.

It seems like fans have no trouble understanding how teams change from year to year, but struggle with how much teams and players can change in-season. The Pats on November 13th are not the Pats of January 22. Obviously. What will the team’s health be, and who are they playing? Those questions mean a hell of a lot more than anything we’re discussing right now. But guys like Brown, for example, could play better. Rowe or another CB could emerge. Promising guys like Flowers could further bloom (see what I did there), etc. I’m optimistic.

 

[aluminum seats]

the bottom line is they can not compete with the likes of..Denver.

Strongly disagree, even with how the defense is currently playing. But we'll see shortly.

 

[FourierSeries]

Number of SBs the Patriots have actually won without a quality defense = 0

The 2014 defense was a very solid unit during the regular season, but allowing 31 points on 400+ yards and allowing the Ravens to win the TOP battle was a way below average performance in the Divisional round. The defensive performance in the SB was average at best.

 

[Deus Irae]

The 2014 defense was a very solid unit during the regular season, but allowing 31 points on 400+ yards and allowing the Ravens to win the TOP battle was a way below average performance in the Divisional round. The defensive performance in the SB was average at best.

The 2007 Patriots offense scored 14 points in the Super Bowl. It was still arguably the greatest NFL offense of all time.

 

[luuked]

They rest of the CB are "hot garbage", how bad can Cyrus Jimes be that he can't break into this line up? That being said, I'd take Rowe over Ryan.

Logan Ryan is a solid corner that simply lacks confidence right now. He showed it in the previous years and also this year when he totally smothered DeAndre Hopkins. But for whatever reason he has become the scapegoat for many of the defensive issues.

He was good for at least 5 strip sacks a season! Nothing swings a game as much as a turnover.

Nothing is so devoid of meaning than repeated strip sacks in early season blowout games. He did jack **** when it really mattered: 2 Sacks and 1 forced fumble in 4 years of postseason games (9 games). As elite as Flacco.

 

[FourierSeries]

The 2007 Patriots offense scored 14 points in the Super Bowl. It was still arguably the greatest NFL offense of all time.

Precisely why anyone should prefer to have a unit, or more importantly an entire team, that plays its best during the postseason, as opposed to the regular season. I would much rather have a defense that looks mediocre in the regular season but plays lights out in the playoffs. We've seen that happen on a number of occasions over the years.

That 2014 defense was certainly not the primary reason NE won SB49, and it definitely did not play like a quality unit for most of that postseason. Luckily, the offense averaged 36 PPG.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I just want to make a point about Roberts.

He can not play with his back to the line of scrimmage. He is simply a collision monster, run stopper.

Asking him to cover is like asking goddell to be fair and impartial. It is not going to happen.

So now bb must search for alternatives that provide for a linebacker to stop the run and cover. Unfortunately that option is not on the roster.

Fix this one thing and we are a better than average press man defense and a bottom five zone defense.

 

[long distance]

Interesting....

NFL Notes: Draft, 49ers, Eagles, Packers & Patriots - NFLTradeRumors.co

• Darren Wolfson is hearing that the Patriots made a run at Vikings DE Stephen Weatherly in recent days, which explains why the team promoted him to their active roster.

Thats what BB should have done with A Johnson ..

 

[Ochmed Jones]

• Darren Wolfson is hearing that the Patriots made a run at Vikings DE Stephen Weatherly in recent days, which explains why the team promoted him to their active roster.

Thats what BB should have done with A Johnson ..

I could not agree more! Of all the head scratching decisions bb has made this year, that is second on my list behind the Collins trade.

 

[rads2005]

Belichick himself disagrees and said a couple weeks ago the defense has been disappointing. I think this was the week before the Seahawks game, too.

"I think overall, we had our ups and downs. At times we played well defensively and at other times, not so well. It was good enough to win. It was good at times and then at other times I think we really – I think we’re all disappointed, so we really just need to do a better job. That’s pretty much across the board – the running game, the passing game, everything. I mean there were some things that just, we need to do better."

I watch every game. They play Bend don't break. They are 8 and 2. What value is your eye test? You know nothing. Do you know more than Belichick? He chooses bend dont break in today's NFL and has stated several times and not just this year that Points Against number one defensive stat. I would believe Belichick over you regarding football for sure.

 

[Deus Irae]

Precisely why anyone should prefer to have a unit, or more importantly an entire team, that plays its best during the postseason, as opposed to the regular season. I would much rather have a defense that looks mediocre in the regular season but plays lights out in the playoffs. We've seen that happen on a number of occasions over the years.

That 2014 defense was certainly not the primary reason NE won SB49, and it definitely did not play like a quality unit for most of that postseason. Luckily, the offense averaged 36 PPG.

Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the thread, and it's not about kidney stones or pot pipes, so I'll be moving on.