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Holley's new book on Pats defensive philosophy/sack specialists

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I read the book last week. It is an OK read, with fewer wonderful insights like this one per page than his prior two, but still worth reading.

Most interesting is the full treatment he gives to the personnel mistakes the Pats made in the years following the third Super Bowl. They went off-script a few times, trying to grab a quick fix, and it backfired, and Holly gives those experiences a fairly thorough review and ties some of the disappointments we all experienced back to those decisions. There's a definite "we could have one so many more Super Bowls" theme to the book, including the same sentiment from Pats' management. Sad, really.

Care to offer some quotes?

I heard the book wasn't as good as the previous two....I'm a little hesistant to buy it.

EDIT: but for the money I would've used to buy tickets for Sunday's game (that are now impossible to get), I might as well check it out
 
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It's pretty clear that Belichick asks his pass rushers to do more than just rush upfield. I doubt that Von Miller would be on pace for like 18 sacks or so here. When looking closer at the rushers you often see one of the DEs dropping back into coverage, or Sheard for example putting a hand on the releasing TE first before he joins the rush. And when facing mobile QBs they are very careful about maintaining lane integrity and setting the edges.

Looking at the pass rush this year, it's inconsistent. They had halves where the rush was very disruptive (first halft against Arizona and Miami for example) where they were consistently applying pressure. A problem they encounter, however, is that they have a tough time turning this pressure into sacks. Doug Kyed has the Patriots' pass rush with 97 pressures, only 9 of them are sacks, for a sack rate of 9.3%. Last year he had the Patriots with 300 pressures, with 49 sacks that makes it 16.3%. Overall the picture is, the DEs aren't particularly down in the pressure department (what's also notable is, Long has a significantly higher pressure percentage than Jones last year, from what I see Jones is more explosive, so he'll get more sacks than Long at this stage of his career, but Long has a great motor), what is down, however, is the interior pressure. Valentine's had a bit of success pressuring the passer, but Brown and Branch just aren't those guys. They do a solid job squeezing the pocket, but they aren't bringing direct pressure like Easley and Hicks did last year.
 
It's not quite that simple, IMO. Sacks, like penalties, take teams out of point situations, and change the nature of the subsequent playcalling much more than incompletions and zero yardage runs.

A 3rd-down sack in punting range is almost insignificant.

A 3rd-sack in FG range, or a sack on an earlier down, is important for the reasons you gave.
 
Great thread and posts people, thanks.
_

Just a footnote on this year's Pats D. Because of specific start to the season I think it is still too early to know what D we have. The next three games will let us know much more (also note that so far Pats played teams with combined 9-16 record; next 4 games that will be 12-7 as it currently stands). The bye week comes at a great time then for evaluation and adjustments. The Seahawks game after that might better reveal the value and identity of the D going forward.
 
I agree for the part. Sacks are over-rated, in that they are not always crucial to ending drives as incompletions or stuffed runs.

But currently, the Patriots are ranked 27th in the NFL on 3rd down defense - and aside from a struggling Carson Palmer, they have yet to face an elite QB. That's a little concerning

When it comes to getting off the field and regaining possession, the Pats are not doing the job well enough. And part of that has to do with the lack of pressure they're putting on QBs. So I think there's something to be said about having a strong pass rush
Football is not a game that can be reduced to statistics like baseball. There is too much context missing in stats.
Here is an example.
Last season an average d allowed about 39% 3rd down conversion and bottom few was 46%. So that 46% is the team that can't get off the field.
The difference was 16 conversions or one a game. ( I compared 2 teams with equal number of 3rd down about 14 a game) So it is entirely possible that the difference between the d that can't get off the field and the one that was average is once a game they allowed an extra first down and then 0-9 more yards before punting.
Since the patriots are 4th in the NFL in points allowed that is really what's going on here.

Applying it to this years patriots they are allowing 45% 3rd downs. Had they forced the punt on first down and 0-9 yards sooner once a game they would be at 37% and 11th best. Would there really be any difference?
Tampa is #2 in 3rd down conversions but near the bottom in points allowed at almost double as many as the patriots allow.

It's like ranking a defense by yards.
I will take a BB defense that prioritized limiting points and maximizing takeaways by being conservative over a Rex Ryan defense that aggressively tries to get ranked high in yards but allows more points and takes the ball away less.

Football statistics vary by scheme and philosophy. Nothing is less useful than to isolate a stat that is something a team sacrifices for the bigger picture such as not being as good at stopping 3rd down conversions because you don't sell out to prevent the 3rd down and risk allowing a big play that costs you points.
 
Football is not a game that can be reduced to statistics like baseball. There is too much context missing in stats.
Here is an example.
Last season an average d allowed about 39% 3rd down conversion and bottom few was 46%. So that 46% is the team that can't get off the field.
The difference was 16 conversions or one a game. ( I compared 2 teams with equal number of 3rd down about 14 a game) So it is entirely possible that the difference between the d that can't get off the field and the one that was average is once a game they allowed an extra first down and then 0-9 more yards before punting.
Since the patriots are 4th in the NFL in points allowed that is really what's going on here.

Applying it to this years patriots they are allowing 45% 3rd downs. Had they forced the punt on first down and 0-9 yards sooner once a game they would be at 37% and 11th best. Would there really be any difference?
Tampa is #2 in 3rd down conversions but near the bottom in points allowed at almost double as many as the patriots allow.

It's like ranking a defense by yards.
I will take a BB defense that prioritized limiting points and maximizing takeaways by being conservative over a Rex Ryan defense that aggressively tries to get ranked high in yards but allows more points and takes the ball away less.

Football statistics vary by scheme and philosophy. Nothing is less useful than to isolate a stat that is something a team sacrifices for the bigger picture such as not being as good at stopping 3rd down conversions because you don't sell out to prevent the 3rd down and risk allowing a big play that costs you points.

Alright...so our defense may not be as bad as their 3rd down ranking says they are (after all, the Patriots currently have the No 1. scoring defense in the AFC). I only bring it up to show how our pass rush (especially on crucial down situations) is an area that still needs improvement.
 
Alright...so our defense may not be as bad as their 3rd down ranking says they are (after all, the Patriots currently have the No 1. scoring defense in the AFC). I only bring it up to show how our pass rush (especially on crucial down situations) is an area that still needs improvement.
But again you can't just lump pass rush into a multi faceted stat.
Hi we many of the conversions were pass vs run? What was distance? What was situation? I'm sure different games had different results and they are all being lumped together.
Does a defense that prioritized taking away big plays result in shorter 3rd down distances and therefore a higher rate of conversion?
How many 3rd downs have the patriots stopped with sack or pressure and what is normal?
As I said football is not a sport that can be analyzed with narrow statistics.
 
Alright...so our defense may not be as bad as their 3rd down ranking says they are (after all, the Patriots currently have the No 1. scoring defense in the AFC). I only bring it up to show how our pass rush (especially on crucial down situations) is an area that still needs improvement.

I agree. What I've seen in the last few games is a pass rush that needs to bring an extra blitzer to get pressure. When we were bringing only 4 against the Browns we saw a lower end QB sitting back there for way to long and was able to complete too many 3rd and longs. Of course we adjusted/they went to their 4th string QB so it didn't really matter after the half but going forward against good teams it is a concern.

I think we got the talent in our DE's and we got one of the best defensive masterminds ever so I have confidence going forward that we'll be a top 10 D. The real key will be that we are firing on all cylinders come the post season
 
Football is not a game that can be reduced to statistics like baseball. There is too much context missing in stats.
Here is an example.
Last season an average d allowed about 39% 3rd down conversion and bottom few was 46%. So that 46% is the team that can't get off the field.
The difference was 16 conversions or one a game. ( I compared 2 teams with equal number of 3rd down about 14 a game) So it is entirely possible that the difference between the d that can't get off the field and the one that was average is once a game they allowed an extra first down and then 0-9 more yards before punting.
Since the patriots are 4th in the NFL in points allowed that is really what's going on here.

Applying it to this years patriots they are allowing 45% 3rd downs. Had they forced the punt on first down and 0-9 yards sooner once a game they would be at 37% and 11th best. Would there really be any difference?
Tampa is #2 in 3rd down conversions but near the bottom in points allowed at almost double as many as the patriots allow.

It's like ranking a defense by yards.
I will take a BB defense that prioritized limiting points and maximizing takeaways by being conservative over a Rex Ryan defense that aggressively tries to get ranked high in yards but allows more points and takes the ball away less.

Football statistics vary by scheme and philosophy. Nothing is less useful than to isolate a stat that is something a team sacrifices for the bigger picture such as not being as good at stopping 3rd down conversions because you don't sell out to prevent the 3rd down and risk allowing a big play that costs you points.

This isn't really any different than baseball.

500 at bats
150 hits = .300 batting average
125 hits = .250 batting average

So, give or take, the difference between a .300 hitter and a .250 hitter is one hit a week.
 
Von Miller proved last year one dominant pass rusher can single handily win you a Super Bowl.

1. It wasn't just Von Miller. Pretty easy to double-team one single guy - the issue was they had other good pass-rushers to complement him.

2. There aren't a lot of Von Millers out there. He was drafted second. And the Pats (picking at the tail-end of each round) aren't likely to sniff a Von Miller type in the draft, and we can't afford one in free agency. And it's not clear we could even afford the complementary pieces that make him so effective.

So yes, it would of course be great to have some shiny hood ornaments for the pass rush (and for the receiver corp for that matter), but we can't draft them and we can't possibly afford them in free agency. So we win with an alternative plan - guys like Sheard and (last year) Hicks.
 
1. It wasn't just Von Miller. Pretty easy to double-team one single guy - the issue was they had other good pass-rushers to complement him.

2. There aren't a lot of Von Millers out there. He was drafted second. And the Pats (picking at the tail-end of each round) aren't likely to sniff a Von Miller type in the draft, and we can't afford one in free agency. And it's not clear we could even afford the complementary pieces that make him so effective.

So yes, it would of course be great to have some shiny hood ornaments for the pass rush (and for the receiver corp for that matter), but we can't draft them and we can't possibly afford them in free agency. So we win with an alternative plan - guys like Sheard and (last year) Hicks.

We traded up for Hightower and Jones. Trading up works sometimes.
 
It's fair to ask the question, based on the original thread quote, is it possible the Patriots saw Chandler Jones as a liability in a lot of situations and gameplans? The Pats defense has improved, or is at least as good, as last season so far. They haven't faced great offenses, but the defensive line is more stout; despite having a less explosive pass rush, there seems to be better lane discipline and taking away shorter passes. I wonder if Jones failed to develop the way the Patriots wanted him to...when you think about it, in games where he just wasn't getting that extra step passed the left tackle, was his value a net positive? The AFCCG certainly comes to mind as one where he completely disappeared...on the other end of the field, Von Miller not only disrupted almost every play, he also dropped into coverage an picked off Brady. I have to think the Patriots were wondering how on earth Jones would be in the same type of stratospheric free agent area as a guy like Miller. Personally, I do think that certain pass rushers like Miller and Watt are worth tremendous contracts, but those guys are on another level. BB did go after Julius Peppers a few years back but wouldn't go as high as the Bears; I think it shows he sees value in pass rushers, just not in pass rushers that are one-dimensional and not consistently disruptive in that specialized role. In essence, I think that's what the quote is hitting on. How many sacks would Sheard, Ninkovich, Collins, or Hightower get if on every single play they just pinned their ears back and went after the QB? That's really Chandler Jones right there. He gets a lot of sacks because his job is to sack the QB; other players add value in other aspects and could accumulate a lot of sacks in that role but won't be getting $18M per year offers.
 
To be fair, Chandler Jones is also an excellent run defender. Maybe not on Ninkovich's level in his prime at setting the edge, but he isn't much off it either. I understand why they traded him; they can't afford to pay everyone, and he's probably the closest thing to replaceable. But he's more than just a sack specialist and they wouldn't have drafted him in the 1st round if they didn't value dominant pass rushers.
 
This isn't really any different than baseball.

500 at bats
150 hits = .300 batting average
125 hits = .250 batting average

So, give or take, the difference between a .300 hitter and a .250 hitter is one hit a week.
Statistics are statistics.
If the guy hitting .250 is hitting in the clutch, and his teams offense is good and the team is winning, its different than if he is failing in important situations and his team is not scoring runs.
In baseball those stats even out over 162 games, and essentially everyone has a similar philosophy, and history shows good player hit well regardless of their teammates, and bad hitters don't.
Football is too complex to analyze with stats in a vacuum.
 
To be fair, Chandler Jones is also an excellent run defender. Maybe not on Ninkovich's level in his prime at setting the edge, but he isn't much off it either. I understand why they traded him; they can't afford to pay everyone, and he's probably the closest thing to replaceable. But he's more than just a sack specialist and they wouldn't have drafted him in the 1st round if they didn't value dominant pass rushers.

Thanks the analysis here...I'm not as big of a nuts and bolts football guy as a lot of people, so I typically base my assumptions on the overriding opinion, which is that Jones is a one-dimensional pass rusher.
 
This is an excellent discussion and delves into the actual process of the game and how teams win or lose games. I think the Buc's stat that Andy pointed out is telling, since they rank high in 3rd down efficiency and low in scoring D. So much of the game is so interactive that it is hard to isolate individual stats that can tell a true story.

Andy made another good point in that 3rd down efficiency doesn't tell a full story because can't register whether it was a 3rd and 2 or a 3rd and 22. Should you give the defense more credit for stopping the 3rd and 2, or do you give it more credit for creating the 3rd and 22 situation, and then stopping it. So much context is involved that doesn't show up in the stats.

So in the end, in a results oriented league, these kinds of stats, while interesting, and thought provoking, they AREN'T telling the full story. There is only one stat that does that, and that's scoring defense, and even that one bears some need of context, because it doesn't include garbage time scores or points allowed by the offense or special teams.

So maybe the key word here is CONTEXT. Understanding why the points were allowed and what needs to be done to prevent more. We also have to remember that defenses exist in an era were mediocre QB's complete 0ver 60% of their passes and good QB's complete 70%. It is a league where as recently as 2001 there were 11 QB's who had 19 or more picks in a season, last season there were none. The game is different. Trying to judge CB's who often playing different kinds of coverages, is virtually impossible. I mean how do you judge a CB who gets perfect position on a receiver and the pass is completed because he's 5'10 and the receiver is 6'4 and the pass was perfectly thrown. Did the CB fail? Was there anything he could have done that would have changed the results? Yet the game day weenies would call for his head because he was "beaten" on the play. The same goes for zone coverages, where great routes and perfect passes will always mean completions. The only reason zone D's are used is the fact that perfect passes and routes don't happen on every play.

Context is what you DON'T get from stats, and context is a critical element in judging a players' production. The coaching staff has that context because they know the calls and responsibilities, plus they understand the limitations and strengths of the players involve. Unfortunately, they don't share that information with us, or PFF or FO, etc. So what we get is their best ESTIMATIONS. In other words, they are interesting indications, but should never be used as fact, like they are so often by the fans and mediots.
 
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